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Minutemen Go Inside Latino Immigration Meeting-Racism Espoused, Calls for Violence Against "Whites"
minutemanproject ^ | 2/16/2007 | Linda Muller

Posted on 02/16/2007 8:13:17 AM PST by ckilmer

Minutemen Go Inside Latino Immigration Meeting - Racism Espoused, Calls for Violence Against "Whites"

by Linda Muller - Minuteman Project - ForTheCause.us

NAHR meeting. Dr. Armando Navarro (white T-shirt

There are many radical Latino groups calling for the violent overthrow of their "white" oppressors and the return of the American west to the mythical Aztlan from which they believe their land was stolen. Many Americans do not believe these fringe groups have any power and influence, so they dismiss them as harmless. Yet these groups continually draw U.S. Congressmen and staff members to their meetings. Corporate benefactors and foundations contribute funds and other means of support that enable these groups to thrive and proliferate. Recently, two representatives from Jim Gilchrist's Minuteman Project attended a meeting of the National Alliance for Human Rights, whose coordinator is Armando Navarro, a professor at the University of California, Riverside. Minuteman Project National Spokesman Raymond Herrera and National Rally Coordinator Robin Hvidston, two of Gilchrist's most street-savvy rally organizers, were alarmed by the racist rhetoric that permeated the meeting, punctuated by calls for violence against "white" people.

UPDATE:
Minuteman Project National Spokesman Raymond Herrera talks about the radical latino groups with Kevin Shannon, host of, The Right Source Radio Show. Listen to a mp3 of the show...

Kevin Shannon Website...
Two members of the Minuteman Project attended an "Emergency immigration meeting" in San Bernardino coordinated by Armando Navarro of the National Alliance for Human Rights.

The reason for calling this meeting, according to NAHR, is that "Mexicano and Latino efforts to push for a comprehensive humane immigration reform at this time lack the requisite mobilization power to influence the now Democratic controlled Congress."

The announcement for the meeting said, "Time is ticking and so if we are to be successful in pressuring the Democrats and Bush Administration to act on immigration reform, as a community must act now.

We need to ignite the fires of activism that produced last year's historically unprecedented marches and mobilizations of millions of Mexicanos and Latinos."

The meeting was held in a library meeting room and during introductions Minuteman Project National Spokesman Raymond Herrera and National Rally Coordinator Robin Hvidston said they were with the Minuteman Project. Navarro said even though he was barred from Minutemen meetings Herrera and Hvidston would be allowed to stay.

"He then made a comment about the Minutemen being racists," Hvidston said. "I replied the Minutemen are multi-ethnic. He said if the Minutemen interrupted the meeting, he would have us removed. I said I was merely correcting his inaccurate statement."

Victor

After referring to the Minutemen as racists, Navarro gave opening remarks. He talked about the recent ICE raids. Then the floor was open for comments. "I was astounded by the nonstop hate talk about 'white' people," Hvidston said.

"There was talk of how poorly Latino children are doing in school. White people were blamed. Talk about raids at work sites by ICE. White people were blamed. Talk about not enough Hispanic school teachers. White people were blamed. Talk about imprisonment of Latinos. White people were blamed," Hvidston recounted.

"People stood up and gave testimonials about white people being the cause of poor education, prison sentences, police brutality… They used slang such as 'gavachos' to refer to white people."

VictorOne man named Victor said he had just gotten back from Washington, DC. He said the Mexican congress members, who were recently in Washington, were not treated right. He said the Hispanic Caucus needs to do more for Latinos. Most of all, he said Latinos are disturbed that the new Democratic congress is focusing on Iraq rather than immigration reform and this had better change.

This speaker, name unknown, adocated violence against whites.Navarro is planning a march for March 17th in San Bernardino. He said they will be calling on cities such as L.A. to join them. He said if civil disobedience is needed to stop any future ICE raids, so be it. One man stated that if guns and violence are needed, they should use violence to overwhelm the white people. He encouraged the community to take what they want by overwhelming and overpowering force.

Minuteman Raymond HerreraRobin Hvidston believes the group is nervous because they still do not have amnesty, even with a Democratic majority in Congress. Raymond Herrera stated at the meeting that Navarro's leadership is much needed in Mexico, to fix Mexico. Raymond believes that there is a Mexican Revolution taking place, but that it should move down to Mexico where it can do the most good.

Also in attendance at this February 13 meeting in San Bernardino were three staff members from Congressman Joe Baca's office. Baca represents California's 43rd District and he is a member of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. According to Hvidston, most of the attendees do not believe Baca is doing enough to help the Latino community. "They stated repeatedly, that in the 'Inland Empire' there are too many Republican congress members."

The National Alliance for Human Rights describes itself as a network of leaders, activists, scholars and organizations committed to the promotion of human rights, social justice and political empowerment of the Latino community in the United States.

As co-founder of For the Cause, Linda Muller has spent the last 2 decades working for various conservative candidates and Causes, including Rep. Tom Tancredo, Pat Buchanan, Jim Gilchrist and the Minuteman Project.

SOURCE: ForThe Cause.us and The Minuteman Project

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest for freedom, go home and leave us in peace. We seek not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: aliens; arizona; aztlan; brownamerica; california; crimaliens; future; illegal; illegalimmigration; immigrant; immigrants; klanwithatan; latino; legal; legalimmigrants; mexico; minuteman; minutemanproject; minutemen; namerica; nevada; newmexico; northamerica; race; races; racial; racism; racist; racists; reconquista; texas; usna; utah; wyoming

1 posted on 02/16/2007 8:13:20 AM PST by ckilmer
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To: ckilmer

And there are fringe groups of those of European descent who advocate violence toward those of non-European descent. What's your point (rhetorical)?


2 posted on 02/16/2007 8:15:15 AM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( New Update to Abortion Section of FRhomepage: it's now the Abortion/Euthanasia Section, for one.)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Double standards


3 posted on 02/16/2007 8:16:52 AM PST by junta (It's Jihad stupid! It's the borders stupid! It's Political Correctness stupid!)
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To: ckilmer
Image hosted by Photobucket.com Aztlan my aching azz... what did the INDIANS, THEY STOLE IT FROM, call it???
4 posted on 02/16/2007 8:22:38 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: ckilmer
This just gives more support for: an Enlarged United States of America.

If they are pushing for a Reconquista (which most definitely does NOT seem to be the mainstream view of Latinos in the country), then taking over Mexico and making it all a part of the country could remove their base (they could still try some separatist thing--ala ETA and the Basque country, but it would be more difficult). Plus, Mexico has a warm climate, enticing Americans to emigrate to the former Mexico (at least once infrastructure, such as water sanitation plants that produce safer water, is put in place).

5 posted on 02/16/2007 8:23:37 AM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( New Update to Abortion Section of FRhomepage: it's now the Abortion/Euthanasia Section, for one.)
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To: ckilmer
Its best to have a demographic look at the USA

video presentation
Census bureau info is used to give a clear presentation of what the current and future looks like.

Regards,

C
6 posted on 02/16/2007 8:23:55 AM PST by ckilmer
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
The press secretary for the California Republican Party is the son of illegal aliens who came the USA 35 years ago. In this article he chronicles how in recent years there has been a massive change in the number and kind of illegals coming north. Including a crimnal element that is causing a deterioration in the quality of life of Americans. Consider this article Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan

People have been referring to the Captains Quarters as a rebuke to the assertions of the article. The Captain's Quarters makes the assertion that -- for the numbers to be true -- it would have to be the case that a small number of people were committing a lot of crimes. That is to say far outside the statistical norm for the USA. The problem is that he didn't actually check the federal stats. As it happens it is the case that illegals tend to be very repeat offenders.

Below are some government stats to back up the article's assertioms

From the FBI crime statistics * An estimated 16,692 persons were murdered nationwide in 2005, an increase of 3.4 percent from the 2004 figure. * Murder comprised 1.2 percent of the overall estimated number of violent crimes in 2005. (Based on Table 1.) * There were an estimated 5.6 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.

Illegal Alien Crime Wave

On April 7, 2005, the US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens that were incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. In the population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990. They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.

CRIMINAL HISTORY

More than two-thirds of the defendants charged with an immigration offense were identified as having been previously arrested. Thirty-six percent had been arrested on at least 5 prior occasions; 22%, 2 to 4 times; and 12%,1 time. Sixty-one percent of those defendants had been convicted at least once; 18%, 5 or more times; 26%, 2 to 4 times; and 17%, 1 time. Of those charged, 49% had previously been convicted of a felony: 20% of a drug offense; 18%, a violent offense; and 11%, other felony offenses. Twelve percent had previously been convicted of a misdemeanor. Defendants charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. Nine in ten had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, half had been arrested on at least 5 prior occasions. Fifty-six percent of those charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted of a violent or drug-related felony. By contrast, under half of those charged with alien smuggling, a third of those charged with unlawful entry, and just over a quarter those charged with misuse of visas and other charges had previously been arrested. The criminal histories of these defendants were generally less extensive: more than 70% had been previously arrested fewer than 5 times. Sources: US Department of Homeland Security, US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, National Security Institute, National Association of Chiefs of Police, US Department of Justice
7 posted on 02/16/2007 8:25:12 AM PST by ckilmer
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To: Chode
Bump, if you are referring to how the Nahuatl (that could have been misspelled, the progenitors of the Aztecs) emigrated only recently from what is now the southwestern United States to what is now Mexico and displaced some of the peoples there before them.

The displacement of previous peoples is not something new. The Bible mentions several such things. Germanic peoples displaced many Celts in the British Islands into Wales and Scotland, and became the ruling elites in several other countries where they were numerically too small to displace the local populace (Franks in France to the Gauls, Visigoths in Iberia, Ostrogoths in Italy--and for a non-Germanic/non-Europe one, Mexico again, with a relatively small Spanish elite ruling over a largely Amerindian or mestizo population, even today).

8 posted on 02/16/2007 8:30:18 AM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( New Update to Abortion Section of FRhomepage: it's now the Abortion/Euthanasia Section, for one.)
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To: ckilmer

Indeed, there are drug dealers, smugglers, and other unsavory people coming up across the southern border, but few are actively trying to return much of the western part of the country to Mexico.


9 posted on 02/16/2007 8:33:01 AM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( New Update to Abortion Section of FRhomepage: it's now the Abortion/Euthanasia Section, for one.)
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To: ckilmer

Did they get any of this on tape?


10 posted on 02/16/2007 8:33:14 AM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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To: ckilmer

"...Victor said he had just gotten back from Washington, DC. He said the Mexican congress members, who were recently in Washington, were not treated right...Most of all, he said Latinos are disturbed that the new Democratic congress is focusing on Iraq rather than immigration reform and this had better change." Oh dear. Mexican Congress members weren't treated right. What, the Dems who met with them neglected to kiss both of their feet? On the day that Pelosi's plane was the lead story? Congress focusing on the war that we are engaged in is a bad thing? What a bunch of perdadores.


11 posted on 02/16/2007 8:42:06 AM PST by 3AngelaD (ic.)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Yes, the Aztecs moved in on the poor indigenous local tribes at Lake Texcoco and did some extradorinarly nasty things to them, like recruit their leader's daughter to marry their chief, and instead lead her to their temple and cut out her still beating heart, along with general treachery and slaughter. These idiots forget what they were doing to each other before Europeans arrived. Curiously, there is only one North American indigenous language group that tracks with the language spoken by the first Aztecs, and that is the language spoken by the Utes of Western Colorado and Utah.


12 posted on 02/16/2007 8:46:09 AM PST by 3AngelaD (ic.)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Those "fringe groups of those of European descent" are in their own country. The Mexican invaders are not.

13 posted on 02/16/2007 8:46:48 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Chode

North of central Mexico, the land was largely uninhabited because stone age people could not survive in numbers in a hostile environment. The rampant cannibalism of the tribes was one indication of how precarious their existence was. The amount of land used and controlled by the handful of indians was miniscule. Bear in mind, th eaboriginal inhabitants of the Americas had not invented the wheel and didn't have horses.


14 posted on 02/16/2007 8:55:46 AM PST by achilles2000 (Shouting "fire" in a burning building is doing everyone a favor...whether they like it or not)
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To: achilles2000
Image hosted by Photobucket.com it's all nothing but spanish conquest to me... they took it from somebody else and we took it from them.

you can take anything you want in this world, the question is... are you strong enough to keep it???

15 posted on 02/16/2007 9:43:50 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist ©®)
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To: ckilmer
That's all North America needs: Mexico and Aztlan, two misgoverned Hispanic nations.
16 posted on 02/16/2007 9:53:00 AM PST by quadrant
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To: ckilmer

If we don't stop illegals, and deport them, we are in for hell!


17 posted on 02/16/2007 11:31:12 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Reagan would vote for Hunter)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

Unfortunately, this is typical of the left.


18 posted on 02/16/2007 11:53:30 AM PST by TBP
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
And there are fringe groups of those of European descent who advocate violence toward those of non-European descent. What's your point (rhetorical)?

Maybe his point is the governmental attitudes towards 'European fringe groups' and groups like La Raza isn't exactly even handed. Multi million dollar philanthropic organizations across the country fund 'non-European' fringe groups, but I'm reasonably certain the FOrd Foundation has never provided a grant to Aryan Brotherhood.

19 posted on 02/16/2007 12:07:14 PM PST by skeeter
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Excerpted from

January 15, 2007 Issue
Copyright © 2007 The American Conservative

Fragmented Future

Multiculturalism doesn’t make vibrant communities but defensive ones.

In America, you don’t need to belong to a family-based mafia for protection because the state will enforce your contracts with some degree of equality before the law. In Mexico, though, as former New York Times correspondent Alan Riding wrote in his 1984 bestseller Distant Neighbors: A Portrait of the Mexicans, “Public life could be defined as the abuse of power to achieve wealth and the abuse of wealth to achieve power.” Anyone outside the extended family is assumed to have predatory intentions, which explains the famous warmth and solidarity of Mexican families. “Mexicans need few friends,” Riding observed, “because they have many relatives.”

Mexico is a notoriously low-trust culture and a notoriously unequal one. The great traveler Alexander von Humboldt observed two centuries ago, in words that are arguably still true, “Mexico is the country of inequality. Perhaps nowhere in the world is there a more horrendous distribution of wealth, civilization, cultivation of land, and population.” Jorge G. Castañeda, Vicente Fox’s first foreign minister, noted the ethnic substratum of Mexico’s disparities in 1995:

The business or intellectual elites of the nation tend to be white (there are still exceptions, but they are becoming more scarce with the years). By the 1980s, Mexico was once again a country of three nations: the criollo minority of elites and the upper-middle class, living in style and affluence; the huge, poor, mestizo majority; and the utterly destitute minority of what in colonial times was called the Republic of Indians…

Castañeda pointed out, “These divisions partly explain why Mexico is as violent and unruly, as surprising and unfathomable as it has always prided itself on being. The pervasiveness of the violence was obfuscated for years by the fact that much of it was generally directed by the state and the elites against society and the masses, not the other way around. The current rash of violence by society against the state and elites is simply a retargeting.”

These deep-rooted Mexican attitudes largely account for why, in Putnam’s “Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey,” Los Angeles ended up looking a lot like it did in the Oscar-winning movie “Crash.” I once asked a Hollywood agent why there are so many brother acts among filmmakers these days, such as the Coens, Wachowskis, Farrellys, and Wayans. “Who else can you trust?” he shrugged.

20 posted on 02/16/2007 12:21:36 PM PST by ckilmer
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

These groups are recieving positive PR on the MSM.

The Azlan and this group do not just recieve a free pass from CNN, MSNBC, AP, Reuters, FNC, and ABCCBSNBC, they recieve an outright endorsement and favorable editing.

They selectivly cut out the "kill whity" parts for the "we want jobs"

It is like jimmy carter saying one leftist thing in spanish and another benign "for the children" thing in english.

The AP


21 posted on 02/16/2007 1:10:41 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: longtermmemmory

Things changed about 10 years ago. Illegals used to lay low, and go about their business. But today, their numbers are so overwhelming that they refuse to assimulate, and many are hateful and angry. We are in for real trouble in a few years.


22 posted on 02/16/2007 5:55:53 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Reagan would vote for Hunter)
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To: Brad's Gramma; Czar; yoe; glock rocks; Pete-R-Bilt; tubebender

>>Navarro is planning a march for March 17th in San Bernardino. He said they will be calling on cities such as L.A. to join them. He said if civil disobedience is needed to stop any future ICE raids, so be it. One man stated that if guns and violence are needed, they should use violence to overwhelm the white people. He encouraged the community to take what they want by overwhelming and overpowering force.<<


23 posted on 02/16/2007 7:19:18 PM PST by B4Ranch (You're in America now. Here we speak English.)
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To: B4Ranch

Thank you for the ping, B4.

Locked & loaded as we've not yet moved....


24 posted on 02/16/2007 7:37:55 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma (DUNCAN HUNTER FOR PRESIDENT! http://www.gohunter08.com/Home.aspx)
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To: B4Ranch
"One man stated that if guns and violence are needed, they should use violence to overwhelm the white people. He encouraged the community to take what they want by overwhelming and overpowering force."

I wouldn't recommend it.

25 posted on 02/17/2007 11:41:03 AM PST by Czar ( StillFedUptotheTeeth@Washington)
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To: ckilmer

Klan With A Tan....bump


26 posted on 02/17/2007 11:43:55 AM PST by VOA
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To: achilles2000

Hi, It seems you have not read recent archaeological studies of the Americas. Estimates of the population of the "lower 48" states of North America range as high as 25 million, a figure which was not reached in this area until the 1830s or 1840s. I suggest a reading of Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" as a starting point. The "weapon" causing death to these inhabitants was usually germs as the natives had no resistance to European diseases. There were, based upon large archeological remains, large numbers of North American Indians.

I will acknowledge quite willingly that certain native societies participated in human sacrifice. It must be borne in mind that at the same time, people were burned at the stake in large numbers in Europe for heresy. Similar practices were dominant in parts of Europe until the fall of the USSR.

Most people respect the culture of ancient Egypt. Lack of the wheel didn't appear to have significantly affected the ancient population of Egypt. Lack of horses didn't halt the construction of pyramids.

Many archaeologists argue that the entire population of the Western hemisphere may have numbered as many as 200 millions of people at the time of the first significant European contacts. Mexico City at the time of the Conquest was far more populous than any city of Europe. Many cities of North American Indians may have approached or exceeded the population of Paris or London at the same time. Check on the "Mound Builders".

What the natives of the Americas lacked which was also lacking among Polynesians was resistance to European hepatitis, smallpox, measles, chicken pox, etc.

Cortez, when he approached Mexico City had never seen such a large city for the simple reason that cities of such size didn't exist anywhere except in the Western hemisphere and possibly China.

I have provided a starting point for your studies. Before you make blanket statements regarding the number of inhabitants prior to European contact, please consult original sources or at least sources that have cited original sources.

You describe "rampant cannibalism" and I wish to see your evidence of the practice among North American Indians. I am quite aware of some of the findings in the SW US and suspect them to be an aberration similar to the cannibalism reported from Leningrad in 1942.

If you truly understood the ethnic history of the Americas, you would also know that there are far more linguistic stocks in the Americas than in Eurasia. The Americans were quite diverse. This is all supposed to have happened in a period of less than 20,000 years. The invention of agriculture at least simultaneously with the same discovery in Asia, The invention of writing also happened apparently independently, even in North America. There are records in the British Museum that refer to a written language in their own tongues as early as 1640 among North American Indians.

For more recent and thoroughly documented history of what happens to a population when exposed to exotic diseases, one need look no further than the state of Hawaii. The country, at the time of discovery by Captain Cook had recently been unified and was thickly populated. Measles, and other diseases killed over 90% of the native population within two generations. More people died in following generations and the number of native Hawaiians is a tiny fraction of those in the late 18th century. Going farther back, one can read accounts of British and Spanish and French fishermen and settlers who reported large communities completely emptied within five to ten years.

The good Pilgrim Fathers raided devasted communities for the food and unearthed food that had been buried with the dead who had died of disease in order to survive. The people were dead, so no crime was committed as survival was at issue but it is false to claim that the country was unpopulated prior to European contact.

The trail of DeSoto was strewn with runaway pigs and disease. The wild pigs exist to this day in the woods of Florida, Georgia and Alabama and other states. DeSoto himself reported no bison as it appears the natives kept that population in check. By the way, De Soto appears to have not progressed much past the MIssissippi River. He might have found bison further west but reports by surviving members of his party do not describe large herds. De Soto himself reported large towns and large numbers of natives.

The bison or buffalo herds appeared in great numbers in the Eastern US only after many of the native hunters had died. The European settlement of the Carribean had much the same results. Estimates of the population of Cuba shortly after discovery range upward of 500,000 according to Spanish records.

If you wish to cite areas such as Amazonia to support your views, you are in yet more trouble. It appears that the natives built self-sustaining islands of productivity in Amazonia and had learned how to fix nutrients in a tropical rain forest. There was an interesting article in the "Wall Street Journal" on March 14, 2007 about that and it is supported by a great deal of archaelogical work.

I would also like to remind you of a great work by Pliny the elder which described the practice of human sacrifice in Classical Rome and nearby nations. No nation is without guilt in that sort of practice. One can look at obvious sacrifices at Stonehenge and at the Collosseum and find human sacrifices. For the practice of cannibalism, I would refer you to the Old Testament to indicate that it was not unknown at that time. That was perhaps the reason for the prohibitions of Leviticus.

I would be pleased to provide you with peer-reviewed articles supporting my statements.

Sincerely,
tsali


27 posted on 03/14/2007 11:42:22 AM PDT by tsali1839 (tsali)
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To: tsali1839

I am aware of the newer "high count literature", which has been developed by the Gramscian historical left. Yes, much of it appears in peer reviewed journals, but the Gramscians largely control the history profession, as they control some many other things in academia. The statement about large numbers having been burnt for heresy in Europe is an often repeated fabrication. Some of that occurred, but on a vastly smaller scale that is popularly believed. Surely you a kidding about the ancient Egyptians lacking the wheel... and horses for that matter.

Frankly, I don't have time to correct the many errors that you seem to embrace. They range from obvious points of fact to more subtle issues of historiography and the sociology of the modern university. You obviously are sincere, well-intentioned, and intellectually curious, and I wish you the very best.


28 posted on 03/14/2007 12:21:43 PM PDT by achilles2000 (Shouting "fire" in a burning building is doing everyone a favor...whether they like it or not)
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To: achilles2000

Hi,

I have no earthly idea of the "Gramscians". Never heard of them and am not particularly interested as my discipline is one of the physical sciences.

What impresses me far more than accounts of historians of whatever persuasion is the number of artifacts and bones. As a lad, I picked up huge numbers of weapons from the fields we farmed. Matters became more complicated when we excavated a mound and found remains of huge numbers of native Americans.

It became even more complicated when I learned that neighbors had been digging up bones to use as fertilizer for a century or so before I became aware of matter in the 1950s. It simply is not economical to dig up bones and grind them as fertilizer unless the numbers are large enough to justify the enterprise. This was on a bend in a small creek. I have worked several such sites as an amateur.

One might explain literally tons of tools by saying that they were easily made but the explanation of the numbers of human bodies in areas as distant as Georgia and Arkansas and Massachusetts is tough to explain away. It gets tougher when one tries to claim that skeletons in a particular area with evidence of a particular cultures were accumulated over long periods of time.

Last I heard, one skull equalled one person. When there are a couple thousand skulls of the same period in time residing in one place, it seems likely that the people died at nearly the same time. This is especially likely when one considers the apparent causes of death. I can give you references for that.

We have information about mass graves in Kosovo and equally good information on graves in Georgia, Arkansas, Massachusetts and so on. The literary information from English and French sources in the Northeastern part of the US is about as reliable as the maps that such explorers drew.

I can provide information from oral sources but it seems that oral sources are acceptable only occasinally in the Western world. I would like to mention that the Old Testament was not set into a written form until at earliest, 300 BCE.

You criticized my mention of the lack of use of the horse and wheel in Egypt. I will accept that point and mention that horses and wheeled vehicles were products for the aristocracy of Egypt until the Ptolemaic dynasty.

The US presently has B-52s and Abrams tanks. Does that mean that such objects are in general use? I will also point out that toys with wheels have been found in Mayan tombs. None of this means that the horse or wheel had practical use in Egypt until Ptolemaic times.

I will mention the fact that nuclear armed missiles are in the arsenals of several countries. Does that mean that inhabitants of Britain, the US, Russia, France, India, China, Pakistan and perhaps Israel and North Korea and South Africa , use nuclear weapons as part of their daily lives?

When making an argument about the technology used by a nation, one probably should restrict the question to the availability of the technology. This complicates matters but history is complicated. I don't have a nuclear warhead nor do I own a B-52. In earlu Egptian rimes, I submit that people viewed a chariot in the same way as I do a tank. This isn't something I would ever but.

Take a good look at the maximum of what current technology has. Then take a look at what would be found in your local landfill. Landfills are what archaeologists use for the most part to evaluate a civilization. It looks like an archaeologist of the future would find beer cans, computer monitors and TVs and lots of plastic ties from disposable diapers.


29 posted on 03/20/2007 10:02:32 PM PDT by tsali1839 (tsali)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
And there are fringe groups of those of European descent who advocate violence toward those of non-European descent. What's your point (rhetorical)?

And the government is hot to give them free stuff and amnesty for their views. Oh, and a quarter of the country to shut them up.

Ja, right.

30 posted on 03/20/2007 10:07:02 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (?El proletariado del mundo, une! - Xuygo Chavez)
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To: tsali1839

I've been all over the Southeast and think I've found a couple of arrowheads.

My experiences show a thinly populated land.

And arrival of Europeans to North America long before Christopher Columbus would have surely jumpstarted the immune system of those early Americans, priming them for the Spanish onslaught.


31 posted on 03/20/2007 10:16:05 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (?El proletariado del mundo, une! - Xuygo Chavez)
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To: tsali1839

I grew up in Indian country - an area of the West that was among the last settled. My great grandparents were amateur archeologists/anthropologists who collected and catalogued literally tons of Indian artifacts for museums. Apart from some things made of leather, bone, and wood, the tools were stones.
This was typical of pre-Columbian North America. Indian cultures were quite primitive compared to Europe, just as the European tribes were quite primitive compared to the Romans and the Greeks. Cultures transmit, peoples change.


32 posted on 03/21/2007 8:21:11 AM PDT by achilles2000 (Shouting "fire" in a burning building is doing everyone a favor...whether they like it or not)
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