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Experts doubt Clovis people were first in Americas
yahoo...Reuters ^ | Feb 22 | Will Dunham

Posted on 02/23/2007 9:34:17 AM PST by george76

The Clovis people, known for their distinctive spear points, likely were not the first humans in the Americas, according to research placing their presence as more recent than previously believed.

Using advanced radiocarbon dating techniques, researchers writing in the journal Science on Thursday said the Clovis people, hunters of large Ice Age animals like mammoths and mastodons, dated from about 13,100 to 12,900 years ago.

That would make the Clovis culture, known from artifacts discovered at various sites including the town of Clovis, New Mexico, both younger and shorter-lived than previously thought. Previous estimates had dated the culture to about 13,600 years ago.

These people long had been seen as the first humans in the New World, but the new dates suggest their culture thrived at about the same time or after others also in the Americas.

Michael Waters, director of Texas A&M University's Center for the Study of the First Americans, called the research the final nail in the coffin of the so-called "Clovis first" theory of human origins in the New World.

Waters said he thinks the first people probably arrived in the Americas between 15,000 and 25,000 years ago.

"We've got to stop thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a singular event," Waters said in an interview.

"And we have to start now thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a process, with people coming over here, probably arriving at different times, maybe taking different routes and coming from different places in northeast Asia."

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; america; brucebradley; clovis; clovispeople; dennisstanford; godsgravesglyphs; mammoth; mammoths; mastodons; northamerica; people; preclovis; solutreans; southamerica
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To: george76
We've got to stop thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a singular event," Waters said

Just about every empire we know of from 2000 BC on traded extensively with America.

21 posted on 02/23/2007 10:00:29 AM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: alloysteel
possible similar sailors...

may have been the mysterious occupants of Easter Island...

.

22 posted on 02/23/2007 10:04:30 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Coyoteman

lol- yep- pointing out obvious errors is 'poluting' lol- gotcha- don't question the dogma- understood-


23 posted on 02/23/2007 10:21:30 AM PST by CottShop
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To: george76
"And we have to start now thinking about the peopling of the Americas as a process, with people coming over here, probably arriving at different times, maybe taking different routes and coming from different places in northeast Asia."

He's still limiting his thinking. Who says that they all came from Asia? If you allow for the use of watercraft, as happened in Australia 20,000 years earlier, then they could have come from many different places.

One interesting theory involves the Solutrean culture from what is now France. Solutrean stone tools look more like Clovis tools than do anything in Asia. If we assume that Clovis technology was developed from something earlier, then nothing in Asia seems to fit as a predecessor. This particular European technology, however, does look like a "pre-Clovis" design.

Our ancestors were far more mobile than we give them credit for.

24 posted on 02/23/2007 10:23:47 AM PST by Redcloak (The 2nd Amendment isn't about sporting goods.)
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To: george76

Hey Sid, Manny & Diego ("Ice Age"), these are the people that hunted you.


25 posted on 02/23/2007 10:34:38 AM PST by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: Redcloak
good point...

France. Solutrean stone tools look more like Clovis tools than do anything in Asia..

.

26 posted on 02/23/2007 10:40:38 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: RightWhale

Traveling across the Atlantic by boat seems very possible.


27 posted on 02/23/2007 10:41:55 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76; ASA Vet; blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks george76 for the topic, and thanks to you and ASA Vet for the pings.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

28 posted on 02/23/2007 11:01:57 AM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Hmmm...


29 posted on 02/23/2007 11:03:46 AM PST by BenLurkin
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Calico: A 200,000-year Old Site In The Americas?
ASA On Line | unknown
Posted on 12/17/2001 5:22:22 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/592435/posts

Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean?)
CSFA | 11-3-2003 | Dennis Sanford
Posted on 11/02/2003 7:11:21 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1013315/posts

Iberia, Not Siberia
Team Atlantis | 12-6-2000 | Michael A Arbuthnot
Posted on 12/21/2003 12:48:22 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1044449/posts

The Solutrean Solution--Did Some Ancient Americans Come from Europe?
Clovis and Beyond | 1999 | Dennis Stanford and Bruce Bradley
Posted on 09/24/2004 10:31:55 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1226510/posts

Stone Age Columbus
BBC | Dec 15, 2005 | BBC programme summary
Posted on 12/15/2005 10:19:43 AM EST by ASA Vet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1540929/posts

First Americans May Have Been European
LiveScience.com | 2/19/06 | Bjorn Carey
Posted on 02/20/2006 12:08:52 AM EST by anymouse
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1581995/posts


30 posted on 02/23/2007 11:08:25 AM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

New, stronger koolaid being passed around somewhere?


31 posted on 02/23/2007 11:09:08 AM PST by xcamel (Press to Test, Release to Detonate)
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To: Slicksadick; Physicist
"Blam has some links showing the remarkable similarities of Clovis points to points from the Iberian peninsula."

Points? Heck, we have their heads. See below:

Vintage Skulls

"The oldest human remains found in the Americas were recently "discovered" in the storeroom of Mexico's National Museum of Anthropology. Found in central Mexico in 1959, the five skulls were radiocarbon dated by a team of researchers from the United Kingdom and Mexico and found to be 13,000 years old. They pre-date the Clovis culture by a couple thousand years, adding to the growing evidence against the Clovis-first model for the first peopling of the Americas."

Of additional significance is the shape of the skulls, which are described as long and narrow, very unlike those of modern Native Americans.

32 posted on 02/23/2007 11:14:02 AM PST by blam
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To: Range Rover
Always the focus on Asia as the origin of Clovis. Why couldn't this "technology" have come from across the Atlantic instead of the Pacific?

The recently aired documentary on NOVA (PBS), "America's Stone Age", examined just this possibility, among others.
What was demonstrated conclusively is that many other groups of humans on the American continent could have been here as long as 30,000 years ago.

33 posted on 02/23/2007 11:27:42 AM PST by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: PeteB570
"Getting harder and harder to tell who are true "Native Americans". IE: We got here first so we're special."

That part doesn't bother me at all. They can think themselves as special as the want, no problem.

I do have a problem with the ignorant savages who couldn't even invent the wheel or written language, deciding that they are entitled to dictate the direction and means of science forever, based on their quaint superstitions and exaggerated sense of worth.

34 posted on 02/23/2007 11:32:59 AM PST by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: xcamel

I prefer the Splenda version of Crystal Light.


35 posted on 02/23/2007 11:42:37 AM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: TommyDale
I was thinking more of Clovis, California.

Probably not for very long.

36 posted on 02/23/2007 11:54:04 AM PST by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: CottShop
'advanced radiocarbon dating techniques'- forget that they're only good up to about 7000 years,

How did you reach that conclusion? Radiocarbon dating has been reliable to 50,000 years and beyond for sometime now.

37 posted on 02/23/2007 11:58:55 AM PST by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: ElkGroveDan

I do have some very old relatives there! LOL!


38 posted on 02/23/2007 12:02:52 PM PST by TommyDale (What will Rudy do in the War on Terror? Implement gun control on insurgents and Al Qaeda?)
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To: george76
"I think that's what we've got to work toward -- a new model for the peopling of the Americas, and I think we need to create a coherent model that's based on genetic data, geological evidence as well as archeological data."

Facts? Naw, that's too radical and requires too much thinking... Besides, it might affect some professors' income stream from self-authored textbook sales.

39 posted on 02/23/2007 12:07:31 PM PST by Bernard Marx
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To: Range Rover; Coyoteman

"Always the focus on Asia as the origin of Clovis. Why couldn't this "technology" have come from across the Atlantic instead of the Pacific?"

Well, it probably could have, but there are problems with crossing the Atlantic versus the Pacific.
For starters, Alaska and Siberia practically touch, so even though it would still take boats, there is no point in a crossing from Asia to the Americas that anybody ever had to get out of sight of land.

Now, granted, the Polynesians, in particular, threw caution to the wind and voyaged in tiny little boats and colonized far from the sight of land - Hawaii for instance and, apparently, the West Coast of the Americas at some point.
But there isn't a record of there being OTHER seafaring peoples that brave! The Mediterraneans hugged the coast. It is not possible to cross the Atlantic staying within sight of land, and the only place where land is even relatively close is the UK/Iceland/Greeland gaps (the GIUK Gap). And THAT is far north, and cold and icy as hell. The Vikings managed this, but certainly in the thousands of years of Western history since Rome and Greece, there isn't much reason to believe anybody else did it.

Stone Age Polynesians crossing the Central Pacific is brave, but not impossible, because the central Pacific is, well, largely PACIFIC. More importantly, it's WARM. Those Polynesians could dip their paddles and indeed their whole bodies right in that water. Stone age hunters of mammoths and seals walking through the cold and bridging with skin boats a small water gap they could see across is eminently plausible.

But the waters between Iceland and Scotland, or Greenland and Iceland? You can't see across them. Not even close. It's a long, long, long way. The water is ROUGH. This ain't the Pacific tropics but the North Atlantic, which isn't warm even in the summer. Granted there's the Gulf Stream. Could they follow that? Without sails, paddling AGAINST the current? Maybe. It'd be very hard though, and though warm, it's not THAT warm.

Crossing the North Atlantic isn't crossing the Pacific. It's a lot harder and nastier and colder. Doing it on the broad North Atlantic where it isn't cold would have been simply impossible. I suppose the crossing from Saharan Africa to Brazil was possible, though far, but there isn't evidence that Blacks did it.

The only place it could have really been done would have been across the GIUK Gap, and that's frigid, and violent weather, and there are no way-stations on the way. The Vikings were a lot higher tech than the stone agers, and the passage was not trivial for them, with their sails.

Possible, still? Sure.
But not as likely as the Asian crossing.


40 posted on 02/23/2007 12:20:13 PM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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