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Pastor's paddle leads to assault charge
KATU 2 - Portland, OR ^ | Mar 1, 2007 at 8:27 AM PST | Anita Kissee and KATU Web Staff

Posted on 03/02/2007 8:00:12 AM PST by Sopater

ALBANY, Ore. - The arrest of an Albany pastor on assault charges stemming from the spanking of his son with a paddle has raised the issue of corporal discipline and child abuse.

Pastor David Lee Fink of the Potter's House Christian Fellowship in Albany was charged with assault after police say his 17-year-old son called authorities to report an incident involving his younger brother and his father.

Police say they found "extreme" red marks, welts and bruising on the buttocks, thighs and arm of Fink's 13-year-old son on Monday.

Police took a 16-inch wooden paddle into evidence. The cracked paddle is time-worn and wrapped in duct tape in two places. "Board of correction" is written on the paddle in ballpoint pen.

Fink reportedly struck his son 10 times with the paddle.

Police say the spanking crossed the line into assault. One woman disagreed and said the police have gone too far and that the pastor had done nothing wrong.

Christina Niskanen said "I believe in the Bible and what does the Bible say about spanking? That's how we raised our children. I'm sorry, my children lived through it. I'm sure everybody else's will."

Another woman who did not give her name disagreed with Niskanen, saying, "I'd rather raise my voice than raise my hand. And even though in the Bible it says 'spare the rod, spoil the child,' I still feel spanking your children is not an appropriate measure, there's other means you can take."

The investigation is continuing in Albany.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: corpralpunishment; discipline; spanking
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even though in the Bible it says 'spare the rod, spoil the child,' I still feel spanking your children is not an appropriate measure, there's other means you can take.

In other words, the Bible is wrong? Well, that's your opinion.
1 posted on 03/02/2007 8:00:16 AM PST by Sopater
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To: Sopater

sometimes you just have to get their attention.


2 posted on 03/02/2007 8:02:49 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Vaquero
sometimes you just have to get their attention.

If you are swift, consistent, and precede it with a verbal warning, you only have to do it a few times.
3 posted on 03/02/2007 8:07:44 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Sopater
The bible also says that we must do so in love, and when the "spanking" goes beyond a point then it is no longer protected under the First Amendment. P.S. if anyone is going to challenge me on this kindly cite a legal precedent.
4 posted on 03/02/2007 8:13:18 AM PST by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: Sopater

Bible has some other choice pieces of advice that are not what I called enlightened either.

What does it teach a child that their parent needs to use a hard object to beat them? Physical violence of such nature against children are the mark of a weak person.


5 posted on 03/02/2007 8:14:33 AM PST by misterrob (Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris 2008)
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To: Vaquero
sometimes you just have to get their attention.

I agree. But you don't have to bruise or otherwise create visible marks on a child to get its attention.

6 posted on 03/02/2007 8:22:12 AM PST by SaveTheChief (Chief Illiniwek (1926-2007))
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To: misterrob
What does it teach a child that their parent needs to use a hard object to beat them?

that they didn't learn their lesson the first time?
7 posted on 03/02/2007 8:23:14 AM PST by absolootezer0 (stop repeat offenders - don't re-elect them!)
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To: absolootezer0

Children are not animals....


8 posted on 03/02/2007 8:25:19 AM PST by misterrob (Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris 2008)
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To: misterrob
Physical violence of such nature against children are the mark of a weak person.

Proverbs 23:13-14
(13) Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
(14) You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from Sheol.
Spanking a child's bottom is not physical violence. For me, it takes a great deal more strength to carry through with discipline in the form of a spanking rather than consistenly telling a child to "stop that or else...", which get's no results. Spanking is not necessarily to be done as the sole form of punishment, but the threat of a quick effective consequence is key for getting a child to readily obey a parent. The real temptation is to NOT spank or carry through with a punishment that we really don't want to inflict on our children.
Proverbs 13:24
(24) He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

9 posted on 03/02/2007 8:25:53 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Sopater
welts and bruising on the buttocks,

That is going too far.
10 posted on 03/02/2007 8:26:02 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: misterrob

He's a real tough guy, isn't he now? Let's see how tough he is after a few days in jail. I'd say something needed to be done to catch HIS attention, Being a coward as child-beaters are*, he probably won't do it again.

*They would never raise a hand to a woman or a child if they thought they would get the snot beaten out of them in return.


11 posted on 03/02/2007 8:26:46 AM PST by Frank_2001
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To: Sopater

Children have become so much more well behaved and respectful since spanking went out of favor. /s


12 posted on 03/02/2007 8:27:24 AM PST by Bob Buchholz
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To: street_lawyer

legal eh?

always the same lawyer crap.


13 posted on 03/02/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: SaveTheChief
you don't have to bruise or otherwise create visible marks on a child to get its attention.

This I agree with. Effective spanking doesn't have to leave long lasting physical marks on a child.
14 posted on 03/02/2007 8:28:33 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: taxcontrol

My dad used to beat my ass black and blue. There's a better way to do it and I admire the heck out of parents who manage to raise their kids without it. But it's not worthy of an arrest and police record.


15 posted on 03/02/2007 8:28:54 AM PST by Rb ver. 2.0 (A Muslim soldier can never be loyal to a non-Muslim commander.)
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To: misterrob

Gosh what a warm and fuzzy sentiment. And it is because this father loves his kids enough to discipline them that they won't grow up to be animals. Maybe, unless Children, Adult, and Family Services gets involved and yanks his kids away and then they can go into the "system" and end up little hoodlums that we can incarcerate later in life.


16 posted on 03/02/2007 8:29:33 AM PST by rednesss
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To: taxcontrol
That is going too far.

If it's true, agreed.
17 posted on 03/02/2007 8:29:43 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Vaquero
You are missing the point...at what point does spanking become abuse?

To some on this thread, at no point. I pity their children.

18 posted on 03/02/2007 8:29:47 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: ContemptofCourt

agreed.....spanking is spanking until it becomes more....I do agree.


19 posted on 03/02/2007 8:31:16 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Bob Buchholz

Say What??


20 posted on 03/02/2007 8:31:40 AM PST by BooBoo1000 (Some times I wake up grumpy, other times I let her sleep/)
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To: Rb ver. 2.0

I wished, I PRAYED that someone would have come in and stopped my parents when it was welts and bruises .... because after that, comes the burning matches, the wire hangers, the blood dripping down the back, the broom handles, the two by fours etc.


21 posted on 03/02/2007 8:32:54 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Sopater

Good grief, I had the "Board of Education" applied to my backside more than once IN SCHOOL, let alone at home. And that was a PUBLIC school.


22 posted on 03/02/2007 8:33:10 AM PST by irishtenor (Save the whales. Collect the whole set.)
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To: BooBoo1000

/s = end sarcasm


23 posted on 03/02/2007 8:33:49 AM PST by Bob Buchholz
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To: taxcontrol

Bollocks, my Grandma used to keep a willow switch above every door in the house. Step out of line too long or too often and you got to know that willow switch. Your butt heels quickly, bad behavior lasts a lifetime.


24 posted on 03/02/2007 8:34:17 AM PST by rednesss
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To: rednesss

See my #21


25 posted on 03/02/2007 8:36:18 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Sopater
Do you also advocate stoning for adultery?
Or do you just pick and choose the parts that agree with your opinions?
26 posted on 03/02/2007 8:37:40 AM PST by newcats (Natural Born Skeptic)
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To: taxcontrol

I'm sorry that you had to endure that, but I don't see it as being progressive. Mine ended when I was 12 years old and ran away from home for a night after getting my tail tanned for poor school. It was the first time I ever "stood up" to my dad and he had enough respect for me to realize it wasn't working as he had been raised to believe and it was the last time he ever did it.


27 posted on 03/02/2007 8:37:52 AM PST by Rb ver. 2.0 (A Muslim soldier can never be loyal to a non-Muslim commander.)
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To: Sopater

I'd like to know what the "incident" was that got him 10 paddles. Maybe he really screwed the pooch, nevertheless the 17 year old kid is going to find out just how bad he messed up by asking the government into his life.


28 posted on 03/02/2007 8:38:18 AM PST by rednesss
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To: Sopater

So the older son called the police on the father beating the younger son? Whatever the truth here, sounds like this family has real problems.

"An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. "

"He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)"


29 posted on 03/02/2007 8:38:42 AM PST by I still care ("Remember... for it is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin, from Excalibur)
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To: Sopater
16" paddle.
10 whacks on butt, legs and arms.
"extreme" marks.
Older brother called it in.

Believe me, I have 5 kids ALL of whom will tell you we spank in our house and spank hard. However, it sounds like the good Pastor went over the line with this one. As someone who had boards and belts used on him, I'm a big believer in NOT using weapons on your kids. The discipline should be felt by the receiver and the giver. If done correctly the spankings should have stopped long before 13. My guess is there is more to this story and it won't be pretty.
30 posted on 03/02/2007 8:39:40 AM PST by mad puppy (That was one rough Monday)
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To: Sopater

Agreed, and then it should be carried out using a bare hand if possible.


31 posted on 03/02/2007 8:43:39 AM PST by opus86
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To: Rb ver. 2.0

Mine ended when my parents started to come at me with a knife and I pulled my dad's gun and told them that at least one of us was going to the hospital because I was not going to take it anymore.

2 months later I shipped out to Basic with everything I owned and never went back.


32 posted on 03/02/2007 8:44:30 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

If true, then that is tragic, but let's not create a nanny state over the exception and not the rule. The vast majority of people who got spanked as kids were not the subject of Torquemadian torture. Spanking your kids is not usually the slippery slope down evil.


33 posted on 03/02/2007 8:45:14 AM PST by rednesss
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To: Frank_2001
He's a real tough guy, isn't he now? Let's see how tough he is after a few days in jail.

He may just gain a whole new appreciation for homosexual marriage. Then again, he'd probably end up as the 'wife' in such an arrangement, therefore requiring a whole new outlook on subservience.
34 posted on 03/02/2007 8:48:57 AM PST by BritExPatInFla
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To: rednesss

I don't want to create a nanny state either. But, anytime marks are left, a review should be conducted. This will serve as a warning to parents who are going to far or have the mind set that will cause them to escalate.

The second time this happens, the parents should be ticketed and required to attend anger management.

The third time they should be charged.


35 posted on 03/02/2007 8:55:19 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Vaquero

So, did you ever need to leave extreme marks on their butt, arms and legs?

I personally found that one whack square on the rearus endus was enough. I actually went more for the big sound than the big hit (cupping your hand will do that). By the time the kids were 13, though, this was not necessary at all.

Obviously, not being there, I can only imagine, but the kind of marks left here (if the story is accurate) reflect that the parent was hitting not to discipline, but as a means of acting out his own issues.

IMHO, if you are still resorting to spanking when your child is in the 8th grade, you might want to reassess the approach you are taking with the kids. Again, for you serial spankers at age 13 and beyond, this is JMO.


36 posted on 03/02/2007 8:57:54 AM PST by dmz
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To: Sopater

The bible is not wrong, but the point of discipline is correction, not abuse. Any spanking that leaves bruises or welts is abuse.


37 posted on 03/02/2007 8:59:28 AM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: dmz
I personally found that one whack square on the rearus endus was enough

Bingo!

38 posted on 03/02/2007 8:59:38 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: rednesss

"I thee so I beat thee" is such a perverse context I won't even bother going there.

Saying "No" to your kids and teaching them consequences that arise from their actions is a form of love. Preparing them for the real world is a form of love. Teaching them values and self respect is a form of love.

Beating them and leaving marks is not.


39 posted on 03/02/2007 9:01:05 AM PST by misterrob (Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris 2008)
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To: misterrob

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rushlimb.download.akamai.com/5020/shanklin_archives/OK_to_Spank.asx


40 posted on 03/02/2007 9:06:38 AM PST by rednesss
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To: rednesss

so appropriate...and it works so well with your screen name

"Yes sir" lol


41 posted on 03/02/2007 9:15:35 AM PST by Jeffrey_D. (Seek first to understand, then to be understood)
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To: ContemptofCourt

I come from a family of four boys and my parents used to beat the hell out of us for anything we did wrong. In hindsight, it never worked, and only made us into angry, violent people. I would never raise a hand to one of my three boys. Violence against your own children is nothing but your admitted failure as a parent to instill proper values in them.


42 posted on 03/02/2007 9:16:15 AM PST by Bluestateredman (Self-sufficiency is the American Way)
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To: newcats
Do you also advocate stoning for adultery?
Or do you just pick and choose the parts that agree with your opinions?


Good question.

Actually, the scriptures that mandate stoning for adultery are part of the "civil law" handed down by God to Israel. This law was intended for the theocratic society that was to bring forth the Savior of the world. Thankfully, the coming of the Savior, Jesus Christ, fulfilled the purpose of this law as well as the "cremonial laws" that Israel was also commanded to keep.

The scriptures that describe corpral punishment are the "wisdom scriptures" that are intended to offer guidance. We are not at risk for breaking a civil or ceremonial law for not following through with this advice, but we are at risk of allowing the consequences that we are warned about to befall our children, our family, and even our society.

So no, I don't believe in picking and choosing scripture as it aligns with my opinion, I allow scripture to form my opinion.
43 posted on 03/02/2007 9:18:57 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
the point of discipline is correction, not abuse.

Agreed. When discipline crosses the line to abuse, it becomes not only ineffective but damaging, both physically and emotionally. We should never sin in our anger. If you are that angry, you've already waited too long to mead out a spanking.
44 posted on 03/02/2007 9:23:11 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Jeffrey_D.

"You know how your mother doesn't like you using scissors on her sofa."


45 posted on 03/02/2007 9:34:28 AM PST by rednesss
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To: Bob Buchholz

"Children have become so much more well behaved and respectful since spanking went out of favor. /s"

Sarcasm continued....

And our schools are so much safer and calmer since they got rid of corporal punishment.

Sarcasm off...

It is sad to see how many bed wetters we have even at a great site like FR. IF a parent is consistent, they need only to provide corporal punishment a few times, then the threat alone will work for years to come.


46 posted on 03/02/2007 9:40:07 AM PST by ohioman
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To: street_lawyer

How about you telling us, and backing it up, what exactly this "point" is that must not be passed?


47 posted on 03/02/2007 9:51:27 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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To: mad puppy; taxcontrol

Sorry to hear what you two went through. I think the fact that the older brother called police is the key here. He was in position to know better than anyone on this thread whether the situation called for police and court intervention. Not only is 13 way too old for any kind of spanking, but any disciplinary system that results in your 17 year old thinking he needs to call police to protect his younger brother from you, is obviously ineffective as well as being way over the line into assault.


48 posted on 03/02/2007 9:52:37 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Or the 17 year old has just been brain-washed in public school that he should seek out the government to solve all the problems in the world. He'll soon find out that the "system" more closely resembles a meat grinder.


49 posted on 03/02/2007 9:57:15 AM PST by rednesss
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To: Bluestateredman
Nobody advocates "beating the hell" out of anyone. If you think a few well places smacks on the ass of a child is considered "beating" then I suggest you have the problem. Perhaps your experience as a child of getting beaten for anything at all you did wrong has caused you to feel this way.

When I was 8 years old I refused to do something my mother asked me to do. I used the one word I had been told not to use to my parents when asked to do something (No). I was warned a half dozen times to do what she said or face the consequences "when your father comes home". I refused, dad came home and at 8 years old had a leather belt laid across my butt for each "no" to mom.

It was the last time I said no to either of them (not that I would EVER say no to my dad.) This was not uncommon in the timers up thru the 1950's and into the early 1960's.

Not to be disrespectful to your beliefs but you have to be insane to believe kids today are better behaved then they were in the past. Even Dr Spock admitted he screwed up when he advocated never saying no to children because it would inhibit their growth.
50 posted on 03/02/2007 10:02:23 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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