Next G.I. Rifle? (1957)

Guns Magazine ^ | March 1957 | Eugene Jaderquist

[RunningWolf]

1st of all I have had this horrible bronchitis for several weeks, plus some flu-bowel problems and all that can do a person. Sometimes it is hard to do anything at all if a person feels sick all the time.

Anyway I guess I was trying to use the idea of calibers to illustrate the US paradigm against the Soviet model.

IOW, we will probably go to a heavier round for more punch thru a certain amount of mass resistance, but still try to exploit our technically and logistical advantages.

I guess that leads back into 'Nam, which I was not there (although I almost was as a 17r old in 1971) While the M16 weapon was poor, a Huey could throw a few cases of ammo right over the foxhole for them when the s*** was going down.

Anyway the real strength of the M16 weapon most people did dot realizes but I did. I Quailed Expert on it in basic as a 20Yr old. It is becomes an exention of your arm in a running assault dynamic fire fight. That was the concept of the M16 IMO

It is those same kids we freeprs mock ridicule, etc., for their stupid acts of self destruction, will be the ones who run full blaze across a heavy field of fire fighting for something they do not really understand. And it will be those same survivors who reach across the divide to each other.

The more I know the more, I know the great truths to be so!

God Bless America

[tanuki]

"I carried an M-14 in 'Nam, but I'm aware of some that carried the M-16, that learned that a nearly worn-out action jammed much less.

They'd refuse to turn them into the unit armorers for just that reason, even when you could hear the bolt rattle in the receiver like a tin can with pebbles in it."

That makes a lot of sense. The reasons for the AK-47's legendary reliability are its extreme simplicity of design and its loose tolerances. Together, they make up a robust weapon system that may not past muster at Camp Perry, but will work in conditions that will kill more sophisticated arms.

[MarkL]

The rifle built around it was a great advancement and therefore had the flaws of cutting edge technology built into it, and so it failed in the field because of that.

A big part of the problem was that changes were made to the production specs of both the weapon and ammunition to save money without consulting the designer, Eugene Stoner. Much of the fouling problems were caused by using a different spec powder, and a lot of the jamming problems were caused by not having the chambers chromed.

Mark

[elmer fudd]

There are a lot of reasons for the AK's legendary reliability. To begin with it uses a long stroke piston that is combined with the bolt carrier. This means that the bolt is driven all the way back and the combined weight of the two is massive and will push and pull the cartridges into and out of the chamber much more forcefully than on most weapons. Second the tolerances are not only loose, but there is lots of open space inside the receiver where dirt can pushed aside. Third, the traditional AK cartridges are extremely tapered. Fourth it's got fewer moving parts than any other gas operated rifle. I've probably left a few things out, but it all adds up to a rifle that just refuses to quit, even if it's accuracy leaves something to be desired.

The AR is exactly the opposite. It's a rifle with features that make it supremely accurate for an automatic rifle, but it leaves a little to be desired when it comes to reliability.

[tanuki]

Thanks for the info. I especially didn't know the bit about the cartridge. And I agree with your tagline!

[mark_interrupted]

the m16 was reliable until the army decided to change powder in the bullets.

[FreedomCalls]

Third, the traditional AK cartridges are extremely tapered.

That's the key design right there. A cylindrical AR-style cartridge being pulled out of a cylinder is in close frictional contact until the shell is all the way out of the chamber. A tapered conical AK-style cartridge is immediately freed from the chamber the instant it starts being pulled back and puts more and more distance between the shell casing and the chamber the more it is pulled back.

[Lurker]

For the link.

L

[Wonder Warthog]

"It is too late for him and he should have known better anyway."

Yes, he "should" have known better, but no, it isn't too late. He can be a VERY valuable asset if he becomes an active campaigner for gun rights. I know of no one better to "convert" the rest of the Fuddites.

[marktwain]

"Yes, he "should" have known better, but no, it isn't too late. He can be a VERY valuable asset if he becomes an active campaigner for gun rights. I know of no one better to "convert" the rest of the Fuddites."

You have spoken truth, friend. Ted Nugent has taken him under his wing for education, and Zumbo has said that as a journalist, he is going to educate himself about the facts of "black" rifles.

Like you, I have hopes that he will turn to our side. Americans are the most forgiving people in the world, and a true convert is far more valuable than a lukewarm ally.

[Shooter 2.5]

There's an 18 thousands difference taper on the body of the .223. It's measured at one inch along the body. When the cartridge is fired, I don't know if that's enough to release the case from any surface tension as it's extracted from a dirty chamber.

[elmer fudd]

I think that if we're just comparing the AR and the AK, the bolt design is very important too. The AR bolt has 7 lugs while the AK has 2. That's 3.5x's more points of contact to jam things up if any foreign matter gets in the way. Also if you compare the magazines, the AR mags are built light and compact while the AK mags are built like tanks in comparison.

[RunningWolf]

I will start again on this idea.

we will probably go to a somewhat heavier round to get more punch thru a certain amount of mass resistance, but still try to exploit the technical and logistical advantages we have. So in this regard we wont go going back all the way to a 7.62MM based round, because then you are getting back into overloading the soldier with weight

That leads back into the VietNam conflict and the Huey helicopter. If necessary a UH-1H could come in low-fast suppress the ground fire and dump a few boxes of ammo off for them, for a given weight they would have many more .223 rounds available to use against a 7.62 based weapon.

If anyone has ever seen what the M16 will do (at close to mid range) it is devastating on a human body. Plus it was an extremely accurate weapon. Once you were taught how to use it well you could knock down the torso sized silhouettes at 400 meters using the iron sights? (I always forget what they are called) alone. Back then the far targets were out at 400 meters, I understand now that they have brought those in to 360 meters. Maybe a recent vet can update me on the current qual standards.

Anyway IMO, the real strength of the M16 weapon was it is becomes an extension of your arm at close to shorter midrange. Say if you are really good with it, you had a good chance of hitting a man sized target by pointing the weapon without bringing it up your cheek.

Now project that into in a running assault dynamic fire fight, that was the concept of the M16.

Regards

[Copernicus]

Putting back issues on CD-ROM for purchase is an excellent idea BTW.

Agreed. I may purchase a set for nostalgia sake.

Best regards,

[Copernicus]

Actually, Zumbo has "seen the light" on "black rifles", thanks to the efforts of Ted Nugent. See "The Nuge Board" for details.

It is said all great stories are stories of the hunt and Jim Zumbo's hunt shapes up to be a doozy of a story.

Here is the real deal: Zumbo recanted the way a DWI driver recants of distilled spirits when his car is impounded. He may be serious about his need to change his lifestyle but for the moment he just wants his drivers license and automobile returned. If they are not, there is a high probability he will find some other car to drive with or without his license.

The same goes for Zumbo. A close reading of his public statements and the timeline attached to their release suggest not all the shoes have dropped in this little kerfuffle.

There is a reason Alcoholics Anonymous members go through a TWELVE STEP program. One or two steps is not enough for complete absolution.

For some reason, Ted Nugent has decided to conduct an "intervention"

Now Nugent eithers knows the full story of Jim Zumbo's hunt or Zumbo has yet to come clean with even him.

Either way is bad ju-ju.

If Nugent knows and has joined the conspiracy of silence to further his agenda of rehabilitation, he will have to swim fast and hard to dodge the wave of retribution when the "other shoe drops". If he does not know he will have to swim fast and hard to dodge the wave of retribution when "the other shoe drops"

At this point many vested interests are at work to discover every detail about every aspect of Mr. Zumbo and his hunt and career. The story could take on epic and Shakespearean proportions.

Hope for the best and brace for the worst. That has been the experience of "interventionists" the world over since the beginning of time.

Godspeed Mr. Nugent and Mr. Zumbo.

[Copernicus]

You have spoken truth, friend. Ted Nugent has taken him under his wing for education, and Zumbo has said that as a journalist, he is going to educate himself about the facts of "black" rifles.

It would be more valuable if Mr. Zumbo educated himself about the facts of limited Constitutional Government.

For a hunter he has displayed a remarkably sanguine attitude about the intrusions of government into our "hunters fraternity"

Best regards,

[Copernicus]

FWIW, The M16 round was a very effective killing tool. The rifle built around it was a great advancement and therefore had the flaws of cutting edge technology built into it, and so it failed in the field because of that.

I was issued an early M-16 in 1971, it has never been one of my favorite weapons, I fought the M-16 rhetorical battles here on Free Republic and elsewhere and even fired one chambered for 9mm in 2001 after a thirty year hiatus, which did nothing to change my opinion about it's capabilities.

That said, it would never occur to me to have them banned from the "hunting fraternity" provided the user was a responsible hunter and competent shot.

Best regards,

[marktwain]

"It would be more valuable if Mr. Zumbo educated himself about the facts of limited Constitutional Government.

For a hunter he has displayed a remarkably sanguine attitude about the intrusions of government into our "hunters fraternity"

Best regards,"


That will have to be part of his education, of course. He will be watched closely. If he comes to the conclusion that "black" rifles are constitutionally protected, are valuable for defense of self and state, and states that every law abiding citizens should have them, I would say he is rehabilitated, as long as he sticks to it.

[Copernicus]

Actually, Zumbo has "seen the light" on "black rifles", thanks to the efforts of Ted Nugent. See "The Nuge Board" for details.

Greetings!

Apparently he has not "seen the light" on his own website:

http://www.jimzumbo.com/index.html http://www.jimzumbo.com/index.html

Best regards,

[CodeToad]

Love the magazine link. The prices shown and the availability make my cry.