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Taiwan President Declares Taiwan Must Seek Independence
playful.com ^ | 3-04-07 | staff

Posted on 03/04/2007 11:21:03 AM PST by at bay

Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian, in an abrupt move on Sunday, declared that Taiwan must seek independence.

"On the 25th birthday of FAPA (the Formosan Association for Public Affairs), I want to put forward the 'four musts and one no' call. They are: Taiwan must seek independence, must rectify its name, must have a new constitution and must seek development," Chen said at the dinner party marking the 25th anniversary of founding of FAPA, a US- based pro-independence group formed by overseas Taiwanese.

The island of Taiwan, formerly known as Formosa and officially called the Republic of China, was site of the Chinese Nationalist government-in-exile at the end of the Chinese Civil War in 1949.

In explaining the "four musts and one no," Chen said that Taiwan's seeking independence owed to the country's being a sovereign state, independent of the People's Republic of China, and that independence was common dream and goal of Taiwan's people.

He said the country should apply for membership of the United Nations under the name "Taiwan," frame a new constitution and develop its economy and democracy in keeping with being an independent nation.

(Excerpt) Read more at playfuls.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: redchina; standingtall; taiwan
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Better to get our missiles first, then pop off.
1 posted on 03/04/2007 11:21:05 AM PST by at bay
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To: at bay

This is big news, though, seriously.


2 posted on 03/04/2007 11:22:02 AM PST by at bay ("We actually did an evil....." Eric Scmidt, CEO Google)
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To: at bay

About 20 years too late, burt better late than never.


3 posted on 03/04/2007 11:24:06 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

burt=but


4 posted on 03/04/2007 11:24:37 AM PST by GSlob
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To: at bay

Well now. This is going to muddy the geopolitical waters. The red dragon, with the new found ego, ain't gonna like it. Might mess up the Olympics.


5 posted on 03/04/2007 11:26:34 AM PST by Tulsa Ramjet ("If not now, when?" "Because it's judgment that defeats us.")
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To: at bay
We have more right to Taiwan then China does. After WW2 we were given control after we took over Japanese assets.
6 posted on 03/04/2007 11:26:49 AM PST by miliantnutcase ("If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." -ichabod1)
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To: at bay

We ain't gonna do anything...


7 posted on 03/04/2007 11:29:39 AM PST by Dallas59 (AL GORE STALKED ME ON 2/25/2007!)
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To: at bay

That is exactly what they should have been saying for many years. Good for you Taiwan.


8 posted on 03/04/2007 11:30:02 AM PST by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: Tulsa Ramjet
Might mess up the Olympics.

Actually making this call before the olympics might be very strategic. China would look like the equivalent of Nazi Germany in 1936 if it invaded now.

9 posted on 03/04/2007 11:32:09 AM PST by 6SJ7
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To: 6SJ7

Good point


10 posted on 03/04/2007 11:35:02 AM PST by at bay ("We actually did an evil....." Eric Schmidt, CEO Google)
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To: Howlin

not good timing ping


11 posted on 03/04/2007 11:44:42 AM PST by Mo1 ( http://www.gohunter08.com)
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To: Dallas59

I know. Bush loves Chicoms, terrorists, I've looked into his soul and he seems like a nice guy Putin, and illegals. Bush was so great not too long ago and seemed to all apart.


12 posted on 03/04/2007 11:44:48 AM PST by racing fan (Go Team Israel!)
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To: at bay
Taiwan IS independent. They just don't say it.
13 posted on 03/04/2007 11:46:52 AM PST by HarmlessLovableFuzzball
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To: HarmlessLovableFuzzball

As weird as it sounds the Republic of China on Taiwan currently claims to be the legitimate government of ALL of China.

What independence means is they give up this claim, actually, and just claim to be an independent island.

The Chicoms actually would be more POed by that than the decades-long claim that they were the legitimate government of the whole of China and that the Chicoms were an illegitimate government.


14 posted on 03/04/2007 12:05:59 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: at bay

Live grenade in the punchbowl.


15 posted on 03/04/2007 12:16:43 PM PST by Graymatter
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To: at bay

DUMB

BIG DUMB


16 posted on 03/04/2007 12:19:31 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: at bay

Well, this will push the Taiwan Question to the forefront. It is getting into territory covered by Red China's anti-secession act passed back in 2005.


17 posted on 03/04/2007 12:38:42 PM PST by snowsislander
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To: Quix

No, very smart. Perfect timing.


18 posted on 03/04/2007 12:47:10 PM PST by GovernmentIsTheProblem (Capitalism is the economic expression of individual liberty. Pass it on.)
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To: Jeff Head

You may find this of interest.


19 posted on 03/04/2007 12:50:01 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: at bay

The Nationalists occupied Formosa, which did not make it China, but Taiwan remains a US territory. If Taiwan wants independence, it need only ask the US.


20 posted on 03/04/2007 12:53:21 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: Strategerist
the Republic of China on Taiwan currently claims to be the legitimate government of ALL of China

It might be so, but Taiwan itself is US territory even while the Nationalists are a Gov't in exile.

21 posted on 03/04/2007 12:55:51 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: at bay

My opinion of Chen Shui "da" bien couldn't be lower. I really think he's trying to start a war in order to keep his power. Well guess what, Chen--after your latest remarks you can count on being at war all by yourself and very briefly.

I have begun hearing rumblings from friends on the island that maybe a Chinese invasion wouldn't be such a bad thing. Of course, I disagree, but it shows the tremendous animosity that many people on the island feel for Chen.


22 posted on 03/04/2007 12:57:23 PM PST by zook
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To: RightWhale
" Taiwan itself is US territory "

Really? Never heard that before. Well the Chicoms are going to be very unhappy about these remarks. Very very very unhappy.

23 posted on 03/04/2007 1:01:52 PM PST by jpsb
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To: GovernmentIsTheProblem

How do you figure?

I think he greatly underestimates Beijing's pride. The ruling leaders are plenty arrogant. They would condemn to death 800,000,000 people for pride reasons alone.

I've asked folks on both sides of the straight repeatedly whether they think Beijing will attack.

The better connected the more they say--not unless Taiwan declares Independence.

I expect a very harsh response from Beijing within 24-48 hours. I expect they will also begin flexing military personnel and equipment--moving it around overtly, staging supposedly dry runs etc.

This is stupidly a big issue to Beijing.


24 posted on 03/04/2007 1:03:01 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: at bay
On the 25th birthday of FAPA (the Formosan Association for Public Affairs), I want to put forward the 'four musts and one no' call. They are: Taiwan must seek independence, must rectify its name, must have a new constitution and must seek development," Chen said at the dinner party marking the 25th anniversary of founding of FAPA, a US- based pro-independence group formed by overseas Taiwanese.

The PRC government is going to flip out when this hits the streets. There's a lot going on underneath the surface in the mainland government, but a statement like this will force their hands. They'll have to react someone to this, or it'll be a major blow to their credibility.

I don't know about you all, but I'm getting a drink.

25 posted on 03/04/2007 1:04:00 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Tulsa Ramjet

They will throw the Olympics away almost in a flash over Taiwan.


26 posted on 03/04/2007 1:04:07 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: miliantnutcase

If they were in our shoes--they'd insist that was 100% right.

Given that they are in their shoes--they fiercely do NOT see it that way. Reality doesn't matter. PRIDE does.

Then power mongering.


27 posted on 03/04/2007 1:05:26 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: jpsb

China knows that very well. The US maintains a military liaison in Tapei but not an ambassador, as is appropriate to a territory.


28 posted on 03/04/2007 1:05:53 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: 6SJ7

They do NOT CARE what they'd look like.

They expect this to be the Chinese century if not millenium. They think they are overdue to rule the world. They expect to take over Australia--which has so much needed land for their people.

They do not care if they are merely survivors on top of a nuclear heap. They figure they will have more people and material with which to rule what's left.


29 posted on 03/04/2007 1:07:33 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: Steel Wolf

China should make a cash offer for Taiwan. Or a boatload of carbon credits.


30 posted on 03/04/2007 1:07:59 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: zook
My opinion of Chen Shui "da" bien couldn't be lower. I really think he's trying to start a war in order to keep his power. Well guess what, Chen--after your latest remarks you can count on being at war all by yourself and very briefly.

Okay, that's funny.

He didn't pick a bad time, though. The U.S. Navy is gathered in some force to lean on Iran. As they're already out of port and loaded for bear, it's a good opportunity for him to make political waves. The PRC will have to factor in that our reaction time will be slightly faster than normal. I wonder why else Chen would pick now?

31 posted on 03/04/2007 1:08:10 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: zook

True.

And then there's the issue of how many Taiwanese would actually fight for themselves.


32 posted on 03/04/2007 1:09:29 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: Quix
I think he greatly underestimates Beijing's pride. The ruling leaders are plenty arrogant.

It's beyond arrogance. It's a credibility issue. The heads of the CCP have been adamant for decades on this issue. If they bend now, it will call into question everything else. Most Americans can't appreciate what that means to the Chinese, but I'll back you on this. Beijing's pride and emontional investment in this issue is far beyond what most people realize. They may wind up doing something very stupid over it.

The better connected the more they say--not unless Taiwan declares Independence.

The problem is also that within the Chinese government are more moderate or more hardline factions, reformers and generals and the like, who have had to make certain agreements over portfolios and power structures over the years. Many of them rest on agreements and common understandings over the Taiwan issue.

Taiwan taking this action will allow hardliners within the government the ability to cash in on a lot of these underlying agreements, and force moderate elements to take a backseat. I realize this is cryptic, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

I expect a very harsh response from Beijing within 24-48 hours.

I would too, I just wonder what it will be. Beyond the 24-48, this may cause a tectonic shift underneath the surface of the Chinese government, and the effects may not be apparent right away. Within a few weeks or months, the PRC's government may be considerably different.

33 posted on 03/04/2007 1:16:08 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Steel Wolf

I think that if China moved now, the best Chen could expect from the US would be our formal protest at the UN.


34 posted on 03/04/2007 1:16:35 PM PST by zook
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To: zook
I think that if China moved now, the best Chen could expect from the US would be our formal protest at the UN.

Why do you say that, just out of curiousity? We're actually in a pretty decent military position to respond. Rather than get into the specifics, let's just say that we're inadvertantly slightly more ready than normal to help Taiwan, should things come to that.

Do you see the U.S. government as being unwilling to confront China over this now? Due to Iraq, or for some other reason?

35 posted on 03/04/2007 1:20:53 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Steel Wolf

Beyond the 24-48, this may cause a tectonic shift underneath the surface of the Chinese government, and the effects may not be apparent right away. Within a few weeks or months, the PRC's government may be considerably different.
= = =

ABSOLUTELY.

And that intensifying of the hardliner's position could easily increase the probability and shorten the wait for what many have had dreams and visions of--China attacking our West Coast as Russia attacks the East Coast.

The repurcussions could be awesome indeed though not immediately overt.

Part of me thinks they want to finish their aircraft carrier first. But this is sooooooooooooo volitile for them, all bets and all rationality could go by the wayside.


36 posted on 03/04/2007 1:21:20 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: RightWhale
hmmm, found this, learned something new today!

This means that when Japan renounced the territorial sovereignty of Taiwan in the post-war peace treaty without naming a receiving country, in fact Taiwan was being relinquished to USMG as an interim status condition. More technically, from April 28, 1952, to the present, Taiwan is correctly classified as a "quasi-trusteeship under USMG within the U.S. insular law framework." The U.S. flag should be flying!

The end result of military occupation is to "hand over the occupied territory to the lawful government of the area." Before this is done, the principal occupying power will control the course of events. So, if you are looking for an explanation of why the United States plays such a major role in "Taiwanese affairs," look no further. The hidden facts are now clear: Taiwan's true status is that it is an overseas territory of the USA.

37 posted on 03/04/2007 1:24:25 PM PST by jpsb
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To: Quix

"I expect a very harsh response from Beijing within 24-48 hours. I expect they will also begin flexing military personnel and equipment--moving it around overtly, staging supposedly dry runs etc. "

And monkeywrench the olympics and trade?

Not likely.

China is pretending to be peaceful lately. Either they do nothing, or they end up looking like the same old baddies. Taiwan can't lose, China won't attack.


38 posted on 03/04/2007 1:24:31 PM PST by GovernmentIsTheProblem (Capitalism is the economic expression of individual liberty. Pass it on.)
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To: Steel Wolf

I base it on our admonitions to Chen over the recent years about not declaring independence. There's been a veiled and not so veiled warning that if Taiwan were to declare independence, she may not be able to count on our support. The US position is "status quo" and I think we would look at the situation and ask, "who started this?"

Then, I think, our leaders would ask themselves, will Americans want to lose more soldiers because a two bit tin horn crook like Chen decided to do the brinkmanship thing.

I could be wrong, however.


39 posted on 03/04/2007 1:26:03 PM PST by zook
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To: jpsb

Interesting, isn't it. How much is Taiwan worth? Would Bejing be willing to pay $2 trillion? It would be cheaper all around than fighting for it. Maybe $10 trillion and we can retire the national debt for a year.


40 posted on 03/04/2007 1:27:11 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: GovernmentIsTheProblem

I'm somewhat skeptical that China would attack immediately. But they're likely to move up the date and refine the contingencies.

In terms of the other issues . . .

The rulers

DO NOT CARE.

BTW, how long have you lived there?

How many well connected sorts did you have long dialogues with?


41 posted on 03/04/2007 1:27:25 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: MrNatural

I'm glad that an event that could potentially lead to war with China has a grand total of one thread, not in breaking news, with less than 50 responses. Anna Nicole Smith and Ann Coulter have really stolen the show.


42 posted on 03/04/2007 1:29:14 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Quix

"I'm somewhat skeptical that China would attack immediately. But they're likely to move up the date and refine the contingencies."

Move it up is the key word. The longer Taiwan waits, the stronger China gets.

"How many well connected sorts did you have long dialogues with?"

I know a number of Taiwanese expat business types. I also pay very close attention to Pac Rim news.


43 posted on 03/04/2007 1:29:26 PM PST by GovernmentIsTheProblem (Capitalism is the economic expression of individual liberty. Pass it on.)
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To: GovernmentIsTheProblem

THROUGHOUT China's history the serfs were to dispose of at the leaders' whim for the leaders' inscrutable reasons and that was that.

At this point, they are quite willing to give up major portions of population--ALL the American market and whatever else to establish their hegenomy . . . FOR THE CHINESE NATION--THE CHINESE CULTURE.

And even . . . again . . . merely for personal pride. And that puts it mildly.


44 posted on 03/04/2007 1:29:52 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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To: RightWhale
"It would be cheaper all around than fighting for it. "

Agreed, there would be much left of Taiwan after the fight anyway.

45 posted on 03/04/2007 1:30:21 PM PST by jpsb
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To: Quix

"At this point, they are quite willing to give up major portions of population--ALL the American market and whatever else to establish their hegenomy . . . FOR THE CHINESE NATION--THE CHINESE CULTURE. "

I understand. China also has a long and turbulent history. I do not think the current regime is long for this earth. I give them 10 years on the outside.

I have no idea what they will be replaced with. It wouldn't surprise me to see regional rivalries arise again.


46 posted on 03/04/2007 1:31:59 PM PST by GovernmentIsTheProblem (Capitalism is the economic expression of individual liberty. Pass it on.)
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To: jpsb

Yeah, even if China manages to win it, what would they win but something resembling the surface of the moon.


47 posted on 03/04/2007 1:32:12 PM PST by RightWhale (300 miles north of Big Wild Life)
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To: jpsb

would =would NOT


48 posted on 03/04/2007 1:33:28 PM PST by jpsb
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To: Steel Wolf

Time to go have a drink, 2012 might be sooner then 2012. The Chicoms are going to react I think.


49 posted on 03/04/2007 1:35:57 PM PST by jpsb
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To: GovernmentIsTheProblem

I had a connection with lots of Central Committee . . . experience.

Other close friends saw many high ranking officials in a professional capacity routinely.

And I had other contacts as well.

I'm also not a bad psychologist and not a bad sociologist.

There is SOME chance China will play this cool but I do not expect it to appear that way on the surface.

And I also expect them to ramp up their military options.

There is also the puppet masters. They may not give China the green light for war at this time. Though some prophetic voices have been somewhat vocal about this year being a very dangerous one on that score.

But China on it's own--this is enough to send them into epileptic fits--violent ones.


50 posted on 03/04/2007 1:36:24 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS WORTHY; GOD ALONE PAID THE PRICE; GOD ALONE IS ABLE; LOVE GOD WHOLLY)
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