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A United Kingdom? Maybe
NY Times ^ | March 6, 2007 | NICHOLAS WADE

Posted on 03/05/2007 7:44:25 PM PST by neverdem

Britain and Ireland are so thoroughly divided in their histories that there is no single word to refer to the inhabitants of both islands. Historians teach that they are mostly descended from different peoples: the Irish from the Celts and the English from the Anglo-Saxons who invaded from northern Europe and drove the Celts to the country’s western and northern fringes.

But geneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The implication that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh have a great deal in common with each other, at least from the geneticist’s point of view, seems likely to please no one. The genetic evidence is still under development, however, and because only very rough dates can be derived from it, it is hard to weave evidence from DNA, archaeology, history and linguistics into a coherent picture of British and Irish origins.

That has not stopped the attempt. Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical geneticist at the University of Oxford, says the historians’ account is wrong in almost every detail. In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.

The British Isles were unpopulated then, wiped clean of people by glaciers that had smothered northern Europe for about 4,000 years and forced the former inhabitants into southern refuges in Spain and Italy. When the climate warmed and the glaciers retreated, people moved back north. The new arrivals...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: atlantis; basque; britain; celt; dna; english; fartyshadesofgreen; genetics; germanic; godsgravesglyphs; greatbritain; helixmakemineadouble; heredity; iberia; ireland; language; scotland; scotlandyet; stephenoppenheimer; uk; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh
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Tim Bower
1 posted on 03/05/2007 7:44:30 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Technically they are both British (inhabitants of the British Isles), though the Irish (from the Republic of Ireland) are as probable to consider themselves British as Canadians are to consider themselves American. In contrast, most Latin Americans consider themselves American.


2 posted on 03/05/2007 7:49:12 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: neverdem

Interesting article. Genetically, it's not that surprising that the populations go back before the Celtic and subsequent invasions.

But you can't discount the importance of cultural change. China had a way of assimilating invaders and getting them to adapt the Chinese culture. But the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Normans all ruled in their turns, and had enormous cultural influence. Which would help explain why the people of those regions are so different from one another.


3 posted on 03/05/2007 7:52:36 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: El Gato; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Robert A. Cook, PE; lepton; LadyDoc; jb6; tiamat; PGalt; Dianna; ...
Red Pepper: Hot Stuff For Fighting Fat?

Programmed For Obesity: Early Exposure To Common Chemicals Can Permanently Alter Metabolic System

FReepmail me if you want on or off my health and science ping list.

4 posted on 03/05/2007 7:53:16 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem
When the climate warmed and the glaciers retreated, people moved back north.

Ah, just another fine benefit of global warming . . .

5 posted on 03/05/2007 7:55:14 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: neverdem

"In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque."

This dovetails nicely with the Milesian Legends, but the timeframe appears to be off considerably.


6 posted on 03/05/2007 7:56:06 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: sneakers

bump


7 posted on 03/05/2007 8:02:25 PM PST by sneakers
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Technically they are both British (inhabitants of the British Isles), though the Irish (from the Republic of Ireland) are as probable to consider themselves British as Canadians are to consider themselves American.

Politically correct Irish refer to themselves as residents of IONA, the Islands of the North Atlantic. They are, however, idiots.

8 posted on 03/05/2007 8:07:54 PM PST by Alter Kaker
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To: neverdem
"He also adopts Dr. Forster’s argument, based on a statistical analysis of vocabulary, that English is an ancient, fourth branch of the Germanic language tree, and was spoken in England before the Roman invasion."

If this is the case, then it would be pretty big.

9 posted on 03/05/2007 8:09:31 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: neverdem
Searching for the Welsh-Hindi link
BBC ^ | Monday, 14 March, 2005, 10:31 GMT | BBC

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1363051/posts

A BBC journalist is urging helpful linguists to come forward to help solve a mystery - why the Hindi (India's official language, along with English) accent has so much in common with Welsh. Sonia Mathur, a native Hindi speaker, had her interest sparked when she moved from India to work for the BBC in Wales - and found that two accents from countries 5,000 miles apart seemed to have something in common.

It has long been known that the two languages stem from Indo-European, the "mother of all languages" - but the peculiar similarities between the two accents when spoken in English are striking.

Remarkably, no-one has yet done a direct proper comparative study between the two languages to found out why this is so, says Ms Mathur.

"What I'm hoping is that if amateurs like myself - who have indulged in doing a little bit of research here and there - come forward, we can actually do proper research with professional linguists," she told BBC World Service's Everywoman programme.

No coincidence

Ms Mathur explained that when she moved to Wales, everyone instantly assumed she was Welsh from her accent.

"I would just answer the phone, and they would say 'oh hello, which part of Wales are you from?'," she said.

We tend to pronounce everything - all the consonants, all the vowels

Sonia Mathur "I would explain that I'm not from Wales at all - I'm from India.

"It was just hilarious each time this conversation happened."

Her interest aroused, Ms Mathur spoke to a number of other people whose first language is Hindi.

One Hindi doctor in north Wales told her that when he answered the phone, people hearing his accent would begin talking to him in Welsh.

"I thought maybe it isn't a coincidence, and if I dig deeper I might find something more," Ms Mathur said.

Particular similarities between the accents are the way that both place emphasis on the last part of word, and an elongated way of speaking that pronounces all the letters of a word.

"We tend to pronounce everything - all the consonants, all the vowels," Ms Mathur said.

"For example, if you were to pronounce 'predominantly', it would sound really similar in both because the 'r' is rolled, there is an emphasis on the 'd', and all the letters that are used to make the word can be heard.

"It's just fascinating that these things happen between people who come from such varied backgrounds."

The similarities have sometimes proved particularly tricky for actors - Pete Postlethwaite, playing an Asian criminal in the 1995 film The Usual Suspects, had his accent described by Empire magazine as "Apu from the Simpsons holidaying in Swansea".

Proto-European language

But not only the two languages' accents share notable common features - their vocabularies do too.

'Apu from the Simpsons holidaying in Swansea' or Pete Postlethwaite? Ms Mathur's own research on basic words, such as the numbers one to 10, found that many were similar - "seven", for example, is "saith" in Welsh, "saat" in Hindi.

"These kind of things really struck me," she said.

"When I reached number nine they were exactly the same - it's 'naw' - and I thought there had to be more to it than sheer coincidence."

She later spoke to professor Colin Williams of Cardiff University's School Of Welsh, who specialises in comparative languages.

He suggested that the similarities are because they come from the same mother language - the proto-European language.

"It was basically the mother language to Celtic, Latin, and Sanskrit," Ms Mathur added.

"So basically that's where this link originates from."


Ms Mathur noticed the similarities after moving to BBC Radio Wales

"We tend to pronounce everything - all the consonants, all the vowels."

Sonia Mathur

'Apu from the Simpsons holidaying in Swansea' or Pete Postlethwaite?


10 posted on 03/05/2007 8:09:41 PM PST by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: neverdem
"Dr. Oppenheimer said genes “have no bearing on cultural history.”"

Bump to that.

A lot of Europeans seem to link people group (race) and culture together as if they are the same. In the Shilpa Shetty scandal in the British version of "Big Brother," people were declaring Jade Goody racist because of disparaging comments she made about Indian culture. The two are not the same.

Plenty of Americans use a Germanic language (English) although their amound of Germanic blood may be very low, or nonexistent.

11 posted on 03/05/2007 8:12:52 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: neverdem; martin_fierro

Genealogy ping?


12 posted on 03/05/2007 8:14:18 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

I think the English Isles were conquered by the Germanic peoples(aren't the Norse one of them?)...so there has to be a genetic link.


13 posted on 03/05/2007 8:16:33 PM PST by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: neverdem
The new arrivals in the British Isles would have found an empty territory, which they could have reached just by walking along the Atlantic coastline, since the English Channel and the Irish Sea were still land.

...until those prehistoric SUVs wrecked everything.

14 posted on 03/05/2007 8:17:00 PM PST by denydenydeny ("We have always been, we are, and I hope that we always shall be detested in France"--Wellington)
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To: CarrotAndStick
The comment refers to Americans, not English (people) who use English.

It could also be used to refer to Indians or Filipinos who use English, but are genetically not Germanic.

15 posted on 03/05/2007 8:18:35 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: neverdem
Both the English and Irish have yet to learn that Socialism is Slavery by Government..
And a Democracy is Mob Rule by Mobsters always in every place universally..

They are not too smart..

16 posted on 03/05/2007 8:23:59 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: neverdem; SunkenCiv; blam

ping.


17 posted on 03/05/2007 8:25:57 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu; neverdem; martin_fierro

Thanks neverdem and JMP for the pings. :')

Gene Study Shows Ties Long Veiled in Europe
Source: New York Times
Published: 4-10-01 Author: Nicholas Wade
Posted on 04/10/2001 20:56:13 PDT by Pharmboy
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ad3d5dd6874.htm

Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins
Posted on 12/06/2001 9:35:33 AM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/584960/posts

Y Chromosomes Sketch New Outline of British History
NY Times | May 27, 2003 | NICHOLAS WADE
Posted on 05/27/2003 6:49:55 PM EDT by Pharmboy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/918562/posts

Y Chromosomes Rewrite British History
Nature | 6-19-2003 | Hannah Hoag
Posted on 06/24/2003 1:33:30 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/934748/posts

We're nearly all Celts under the skin [In Great Britain]
The Scotsman | September 21, 2006 | IAN JOHNSTON
Posted on 09/23/2006 1:33:58 PM EDT by Torie
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1707002/posts

Study provides first genetic evidence of long-lived African presence within Britain
Wellcome Trust via Eureka Science News | Jan 24, 2007 | Craig Brierley
Posted on 01/25/2007 7:39:21 AM EST by Pharmboy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1773378/posts


18 posted on 03/05/2007 8:38:23 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, February 19, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

A large proportion of Americans draw their roots from the English.


19 posted on 03/05/2007 8:54:42 PM PST by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: CarrotAndStick

Not all.


20 posted on 03/05/2007 8:57:34 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)
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