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Intelligent Design Scientists Will Showcase Evidence Challenging Evolution
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3916&program=DI%20Main%20Page%20-%20News&callingPage=discoMainPage ^

Posted on 03/13/2007 12:35:30 PM PDT by truthfinder9

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To: Dinsdale

"Evolution can be falsified by finding a fossil that is too evolved for the age of the surrounding rock."

HA! Fossils can be moved to different layers of rock for a thousand reasons. There's no way that finding a fossil that is "too deep" would be considered anything more than a fluke. Much less disproving evolution entirely. Plus, this already happened in many areas and there are plenty of theories about how either the layer dating was wrong or the fossils got pushed around.

"Further finding anything that truly was 'irreducibly complex' would also disprove evolution. Note for something to be 'irreducibly complex' we have to understand it. Because we don't understand something (yet) doesn't make it 'irreducibly complex'."

You can always make up a "just so" story for any structure. Irreducible complexity is a nice idea, but it's no smoking gun for ID.

"Now it's your turn. What would falsify ID? What would falsify YEC?"

First, historical sciences aren't about falsification. Competing theories may survive for hundreds of years before significant evidence disproves them or a "smoking gun" proves them.

YEC has been disproven already, by geology, cosmology, and a hundred other findings. We know the Earth, and the universe is far older than 6,000 years.

ID has a lot going for it to explain why creatures of all types suddenly appear at different times in the fossil record, and it gets by the problematic co-evolution necessary for symbiotic mutualism and the seemingly ever-increasing complexity of the cell. It is becoming more elegant to simply assume an historical ordering force. Evolution already has intelligence colloquially attributed to it by scientists anyway.

"Smoking guns" in historical biology are not easy to come by, since we are not talking about inanimate objects. With a theory as broad as evolution, nothing may be a true smoking gun without more focused predictions.


141 posted on 03/14/2007 11:18:51 AM PDT by dan1123
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To: Alter Kaker
"Pons and Fleischmann were rejected by the scientific community"

You may be one of those freaks that wish to believe that, but the evidence doesn't support that conclusion. They were, of course ridiculed by pundits in the MSM, and the political power base has succeded in pushing funding underground, but I know several nuclear engineers that are drawing salaries over $300,000 / year in research in that very field.

142 posted on 03/14/2007 11:21:04 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: voltaires_zit
Morphological dissimilarities in homo sapiens would obviously rule that possibility out, if they existed.

Why would that make any difference at all, monkeys came from something which came from something which came from something which came from bacteria. No physical anything about any creature can in any way disprove that we evolved from some monkey. There is no way to disprove it by any current differences. The theory can not be disproven.

143 posted on 03/14/2007 11:23:08 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesarís, and to God the things that are Godís.Ē)
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To: Alter Kaker

Galileo and Copernicus charged the general public for glitzy Power Point displays? LOL
***

Don't be silly. They lived back in the days of DOS.


144 posted on 03/14/2007 11:23:08 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: voltaires_zit
Finding australopithecus or other transitional fossils in , North America, South America, Antarctica, Siberia, or on any oceanic islands removed from Africa.

How does this disprove that we evolved from monkeys?

145 posted on 03/14/2007 11:24:10 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesarís, and to God the things that are Godís.Ē)
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To: voltaires_zit
Finding a homo erectus or sapiens skull older than some of the earlier transitional forms.

The theory thrives today with no transitional forms. One can't concretely prove transitional forms or ages either. There is always enough wiggle room to believe as a person wants.

146 posted on 03/14/2007 11:25:59 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesarís, and to God the things that are Godís.Ē)
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To: GourmetDan
What 'observed fact' is that and what is the observation that proves it?

Well, certainly you already know what I'm going to say . . . but if you want to have this debate for the 43,304th time, we certainly can.

Let me try the most basic point: it is observed fact that a bunch of small changes equals a big change. I assume you agree that so-called 'micro-evolution' happens.

So doesn't a large number of small, micro-changes equal a big change?

147 posted on 03/14/2007 11:26:05 AM PDT by Dominic Harr (Conservative: The "ant", to a liberal's "grasshopper".)
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To: voltaires_zit
Finding that the current rate of change of the human genome is too small to account for the magnitude of the differences between humans and chimps since the time of the proposed common ancestor.

There is no change to human species such that one can prove that we are evolving in any way.

Finding a common pseudo-gene between humans and old world monkeys that is not shared by gorillas and chimpanzees.

Would only indicate a different path.

Given the alternative is that they were created

There are many predictions which common descent requires a priori that can be tested.

Are there any potential findings that could so disqualify ID? No, because whatever is found, people will just wave their hands and say "goddidit".

Both are religions, both are based on faith and esoteric mumbo jumbo that cannot be proven. I used to believe evolution was my creator, now I believe the bible. That's only a change in faith.

148 posted on 03/14/2007 11:31:05 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesarís, and to God the things that are Godís.Ē)
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To: truthfinder9

"Intelligent Design Scientists Will Showcase Evidence Challenging Evolution"

If they're "Intelligent Design" scientists, why are they not presenting evidence supporting their "theory" (I'd hardly even credit it with being an hypothesis, personally), rather than evidence challenging evolution? Could it be because The Theory of Natural Selection and other evolutionary theories actually make testable predictions, while Intelligent Design makes none? Pointing at another theory and saying "it doesn't explain this or that" doesn't make that theory wrong, just incomplete.


149 posted on 03/14/2007 11:31:11 AM PDT by -YYZ-
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To: truthfinder9

I've seen this program. Very compelling evidence. Worth the time.


150 posted on 03/14/2007 11:32:53 AM PDT by I'm ALL Right! ("Tolerance" is only required of Conservatives and Christians.)
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To: voltaires_zit

"Finding that the current rate of change of the human genome is too small to account for the magnitude of the differences between humans and chimps since the time of the proposed common ancestor."

What do you think of this then:

“Humans evolved their cognitive abilities not due to a few accidental mutations, but rather from an enormous number of mutations...To accomplish so much in so little evolutionary time—a few tens of millions of years—requires a selective process that is perhaps categorically different from the typical processes of acquiring new biological traits."

"...there may have been thousands of mutations in thousands of genes that contributed to the evolution of the human brain. This “staggering” number of mutations suggests the human lineage was driven by intense selection process."

from: http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050106/lahn.shtml


151 posted on 03/14/2007 11:33:20 AM PDT by dan1123
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To: dan1123
First, historical sciences aren't about falsification. Competing theories may survive for hundreds of years before significant evidence disproves them or a "smoking gun" proves them.

You're contradicting yourself. Granting sometimes significant evidence is hard to come by (which is why they look so hard for it). Theories are never proven by 'smoking guns' only supported.

It's always about falsification. You can make predictions about things you haven't seen yet (because you haven't dug their yet in the case of fossils, or because you haven't developed the instrument/method to see the data in the case of cosmology and DNA). When you see those things (e.g. new fossils, DNA sequences or variations in the background radiations) you test your theory, just like any experimental science.

You and I agree YEC has been falsified. What would it take to convince a YECist that it was false? (a boot to the head?)

152 posted on 03/14/2007 11:34:44 AM PDT by Dinsdale
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To: voltaires_zit

The 'begging the question' fallacy came in when you said, "There's the observed fact of evolution...".

That begs the question of whether observed facts support evolution.


153 posted on 03/14/2007 11:50:35 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Dominic Harr
"Well, certainly you already know what I'm going to say . . ."

No, because you didn't say it and missed the point entirely.

But, surely you already know that too.

154 posted on 03/14/2007 11:55:51 AM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: truthfinder9

Intelligent Design is a far cry from Creationism but does give credit where credit is due.


155 posted on 03/14/2007 11:56:50 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: GourmetDan
No, because you didn't say it and missed the point entirely.

I'm sorry, then I am confused . . . what was the point? I thought I addressed you directly, on topic. I must have missed something?

156 posted on 03/14/2007 12:06:47 PM PDT by Dominic Harr (Conservative: The "ant", to a liberal's "grasshopper".)
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To: Dinsdale
It's always about falsification.

Nice idea, but no. How would a geologist, paleontologist, or archaeologist falsify their hypotheses? They can only find supporting or contrasting evidence. Even then, there could be many hypotheses that fit the available data.

I have posted this several times before, but I think people interested in the evolution debate need to read and understand this article from the Nov 2001 peer-reviewed journal Geology:
Gee (1999) was correct about there being fundamental differences in the methodology used by historical and experimental scientists. Experimental scientists focus on a single (sometimes complex) hypothesis, and the main research activity consists in repeatedly bringing about the test conditions specified by the hypothesis, and controlling for extraneous factors that might produce false positives and false negatives. Historical scientists, in contrast, usually concentrate on formulating multiple competing hypotheses about particular past events. Their main research efforts are directed at searching for a smoking gun, a trace that sets apart one hypothesis as providing a better causal explanation (for the observed traces) than do the others.

157 posted on 03/14/2007 12:14:49 PM PDT by dan1123
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To: Dominic Harr

You were responding to a post about Galileo and Copernicus being attacked by the church for talking about 'observed facts'.

Now Galileo and Copernicus advocated heliocentrism and I asked you what 'observed fact' you were talking about and what is the observation that proves it?

If it's a fact, it must have been proved. If it hasn't been proved, it isn't a fact, but a belief.


158 posted on 03/14/2007 12:29:03 PM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: Elsie

We may be opposites re: evolution, but that line did make coffee come out my nose.


159 posted on 03/14/2007 12:34:51 PM PDT by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what an Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: GourmetDan
Now Galileo and Copernicus advocated heliocentrism and I asked you what 'observed fact' you were talking about and what is the observation that proves it?

Wait, you're arguing with -- heliocentrism?

Nah, not really, right?

160 posted on 03/14/2007 12:41:34 PM PDT by Dominic Harr (Conservative: The "ant", to a liberal's "grasshopper".)
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