Pray the Gay Away!
Posted on 03/15/2007 12:44:14 AM PDT by Graybeard58
The president of the leading Southern Baptist seminary has incurred sharp attacks from both the left and right by suggesting that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven, and that prenatal treatment to reverse gay orientation would be biblically justified.
The Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the country's pre-eminent evangelical leaders, acknowledged that he irked many fellow conservatives with an article earlier this month saying scientific research "points to some level of biological causation" for homosexuality.
Proof of a biological basis would challenge the belief of many conservative Christians that homosexuality - which they view as sinful - is a matter of choice that can be overcome through prayer and counseling.
However, Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., was assailed even more harshly by gay-rights supporters. They were upset by his assertion that homosexuality would remain a sin even if it were biologically based, and by his support for possible medical treatment that could switch an unborn gay baby's sexual orientation to heterosexual.
"He's willing to play God," said Harry Knox, a spokesman on religious issues for the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay-rights group. "He's more than willing to let homophobia take over and be the determinant of how he responds to this issue, in spite of everything else he believes about not tinkering with the unborn."
Mohler said he was aware of the invective being directed at him on gay-rights blogs, where some participants have likened him to Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor notorious for death-camp experimentation.
"I wonder if people actually read what I wrote," Mohler said in a telephone interview. "But I wrote the article intending to start a conversation, and I think I've been successful at that."
The article, published March 2 on Mohler's personal Web site, carried a long but intriguing title: "Is Your Baby Gay? What If You Could Know? What If You Could Do Something About It?"
Mohler began by summarizing some recent research into sexual orientation, and advising his Christian readership that they should brace for the possibility that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven.
Mohler wrote that such proof would not alter the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, but said the discovery would be "of great pastoral significance, allowing for a greater understanding of why certain persons struggle with these particular sexual temptations."
He also referred to a recent article in the pop-culture magazine Radar, which explored the possibility that sexual orientation could be detected in unborn babies and raised the question of whether parents - even liberals who support gay rights - might be open to trying future prenatal techniques that would reverse homosexuality.
Mohler said he would strongly oppose any move to encourage abortion or genetic manipulation of fetuses on grounds of sexual orientation, but he would endorse prenatal hormonal treatment - if such a technology were developed - to reverse homosexuality. He said this would no different, in moral terms, to using technology that would restore vision to a blind fetus.
"I realize this sounds very offensive to homosexuals, but it's the only way a Christian can look at it," Mohler said. "We should have no more problem with that than treating any medical problem."
Mohler's argument was endorsed by a prominent Roman Catholic thinker, the Rev. Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Fla., and editor of Ignatius Press, Pope Benedict XVI's U.S. publisher.
"Same-sex activity is considered disordered," Fessio said. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science."
Such logic dismayed Jennifer Chrisler of Family Pride, a group that supports gay and lesbian families.
"What bothers me is the hypocrisy," she said. "In one breath, they say the sanctity of an unborn life is unconditional, and in the next breath, it's OK to perform medical treatments on them because of their own moral convictions, not because there's anything wrong with the child."
Paul Myers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota-Morris, wrote a detailed critique of Mohler's column, contending that there could be many genes contributing to sexual orientation and that medical attempts to alter it could be risky.
"If there are such genes, they will also contribute to other aspects of social and sexual interactions," Myers wrote. "Disentangling the nuances of preference from the whole damn problem of loving people might well be impossible."
Not all reaction to Mohler's article has been negative.
Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York City psychiatrist critical of those who consider homosexuality a disorder, commended Mohler's openness to the prospect that it is biologically based.
"This represents a major shift," Drescher said. "This is a man who actually has an open mind, who is struggling to reconcile his religious beliefs with facts that contradict it."
"points to some level of biological causation" for homosexuality.
Yeah right, God makes homosexuals, hogwash! It is their choice to be sinful.
The celebration of sin, the prideful promotion of sin, the mocking of sin lead to fierce judgement.
Those who march in or support any gay pride parades or pro abortion parades are storing up unimaginable wrath for themselves and also helping to destroy the lives of millions here and now at the same time.
They are in denial, due to so many modern Bible rejecting, blasphemous voices who lie about God, His Holy Word, and His sure judgement.
Depravity of all kinds are taking an enormous toll on America and the Light is flickering.
By your post, I can tell that you have a lot of wisdom.
Amen, preach it! :)
Baptist ping
If homosexuality has a biological cause it would enhance the teaching that such behavior is part of original sin, not contradict it.
Pray the Gay Away!
Amazing how the left spends all its time and energy trying to convince normal people that abnormality is normal, that stoning women is normal, that chopping heads off is normal, that stealing private property is normal.
If homosexuality has a biological cause it would enhance the teaching that such behavior is part of original sin, not contradict it.
Exactly, I'm sure that if we look around we could find heterosexual men with a biological cause for jumping a different woman every night. It doesn't excuse immoral behavior.
There are deaf societies that protest against medical procedures to reverse deafness because, "There is nothing wrong with being deaf."
Homosexuals do the same thing. They can't admit that its a biological abnormality, nor can they admit that its a choice, because both of those can conceivably be reversed or fixed. They are then left with the argument that its normal, which goes against science AND God based religions. I think that's why they are currently inventing their own religions.
It goes against the clear teaching of Scripture in Romans 1.
Great point.
> Homosexuals do the same thing. They can't admit that its a biological abnormality, nor can they admit that its a choice, because both of those can conceivably be reversed or fixed.
I have friends who are homosexual. They are observably and clearly "different" to the rest of us. And I do not agree with their personal choice of lifestyle. But...
They are also kind and considerate and compassionate and generous and welcoming and friendly and tolerant and humorous and hospitable, law-abiding and tax-paying and to the best of my knowledge none of them have gone to Gaol for any crimes whatsoever.
I do not care what they do in their bedrooms. That is their business. If "fixing" them requires that we undo all of these good things about them, then I say "No Thanks".
I have plenty of "straight" friends, too -- and more than a few "straight" acquaintences.
Some of my straight acquaintences are ill-mannered petty bigots, buffoons, superior know-it-all nasty folk. I wish there were medical procedures that would fix *these* people.
I prefer to judge people by who they *are* as human beings, and not by who they prefer to sleep with.
Promiscuity, adultery, anger/violence, sloth, envy etc are biologically based. Yet they are are sinful.
Psychotic disorders and other diseases are natural and happen among animals and yet they are abnormal.
The cannibalism and incest happen among animals and it does not make them right for the human beings
Adulterers can have these virtues too, does it mean that adultery is right?
Homosexual Agenda Keyword Searchor click it for a list of homosexual agenda articles.
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1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Where does that say it cannot be something one is born with?
I am afraid you are confused with the concept that one can be born with a predisposition to sin yet we are all called to turn from those sins, whatever the cause.
I can certainly appreciate somebody trying to start a conversation on the subject. Unfortunately, it appears only Mohler took a cursory look into the matter. For if Mohler had checked with credible scientists he would have been promptly told there is no evidence homosexuals are born that way. Perhaps he could read the following articles from experts in the field:
Your argument is that homosexuality is making them nice? Do you not know nice heterosexual people?
Your entire point could as easily be applied to those who are deaf, blind or have MS. Indeed, I have known many people with Down Syndrome in my life, and to a person they were all incredibly nice people. Would you then argue that we should not prevent Down Syndrome if we have the ability to do so?
I'm not proposing killing them or even involuntarily "curing" anyone. However, if a prenatal test could indicate a biological problem, or early counseling could prevent a psychological problem, would you prevent parents from making their child normal?
If you would prevent Down Syndrome but not homosexuality, please explain why?
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."
Matthew 13:11-15 NIV
1. There is, as of now, no incontrovertible or widely accepted proof that any biological basis for sexual orientation exists.He gets that one right.
2. Nevertheless, the direction of the research points in this direction. Research into the sexual orientation of sheep and other animals, as well as human studies, points to some level of biological causation for sexual orientation in at least some individuals.He gets this one wrong. First, let's see the human studies to which he refers. Second, any correleation does not mean causation. Third, from the summary to Dr. Satinover's (an actual expert in the field) The Gay Gene?:
I'm confused. Isn't there is a "genetic component" to homosexuality? Yes, but "component" is just a loose way of indicating genetic associations and linkages. This will not make sense unless you understand what, and how little, "linkage" and "association" really means.Again, if Mohler wanted to start a conversation he could have started the conversation with more accurate information.
I will believe homo sex is normal when I see two male deer getting it on in the woods. Till then. Nice try homo agenda.
I know that I was born with many tendencies that, if acted upon, society would not tolerate. Which such tendencies lead to intolerable behavior can be debated. What some find tolerable others do not, and that is a legitimate subject of debate.
If I had a child, or was expecting a child (with my wife) whom I thought might have homosexual inclinations, I would try to do what I could to avoid that result, just as I would try avoid my child being a pyromaniac, nymphomaniac, thief, etc. Those behaviors are not excusable simply because one is "born that way." Some have decided that homosexuality should be treated differently. I disagree.
Even homosexuals acknowledge the difficulty of living that lifestyle. Most have said that they would never choose to be homosexual. So, if parents could avoid that result, why would that not be a good idea?
I hope that you are not suggesting that one's sexual orientation is somehow a factor in other personality traits.
Feelings may not be a choice, but behavior is always a choice.
I'm a left handed female. Most lefties are male. I read somewhere that lefthandedness is determined in the womb by an excess of testosteron. I've also heard that a leftie is the survivor of mirror twins with one of them having been reabsorbed. I really don't know about an inclination to be attracted to the same sex. I have raised two boys though and know that they go through a stage where virtually anything will arouse them sexually. I believe that they are very vulnerable to being pulled into the homosexual lifestyle then if not discouraged by the culture. Right now the culture is encouraging it. Rats (the furry kind) can be manipulated by their environment into homosexual behavior. So, just early am ramblings. No flaming please.
10. Christians must be very careful not to claim that science can never prove a biological basis for sexual orientation...I've been studying this issue for a long time and have never heard anybody, Christian or not, make that statement.
The issue is what do we know and what does that tell us? We know there is no evidence of a gay gene and no credible scientists has stated otherwise. Those who say otherwise are pushing an agenda, are misrepresenting studies or both. We know environment plays a major factor which all credible scientists admit. We also know ex-gays exist and their numbers are growing.
If Mohler wanted to start a conversation with what we know he could have easily started with the above.
I don't blame him for wanting to start a conversation on the subject. Not at all. In fact I encourage him to continue talking about it because we need to talk about the facts surrounding homosexuality. I just think he could have started the conversation with what we know about homosexuality and then I wouldn't have to spend my time telling others how Mohler could have better handled the situation. ;-)
He has people on both sides of the issue talking about it, which may be a good thing. But as you pointed out, there are better ways to start the conversation.
It is the latter group which is specifically targeted by front groups such as the GSA for recruitment. They seek out children sitting by themselves or who are meeker/shyer than other children, and say "come sit with us, we are just like you". They then convince them they are "gay" and push them to experiment. It is disgusting that these creeps are permitted entry into your children's schools to indoctrinate otherwise perfectly normal youths this way.
Great points.
It's truly sad to see children encouraged to experiment with homosexuality. Here are some articles of interest:
Targeting Children, Part 1: How the gay movement intends to capture the next generation
Targeting Children, Part 2: How the homosexual movement uses public schools as instruments of change
Targeting Children, Part 3: Activists encouraging experimentation
Targeting Children, Part 4: Access to children: homosexuality and molestation
A former pastor of mine has met Dr. Mohler--he's a fine man.
Perhaps he should stay within the area of apologetics which he is best gifted, meaning having finely tuned political ear as well--Dr. Richard Land can handle this one...
another Haggard?
Interesting how many of the blatent assertions of "based PARTIALLY" on biology have appeared in the media of late.
The fact is there is zero evidence to support that and far more evidence to the conditioned behavior. (see abused children, prisoners in jail etc.)
There is something fishy going on in this persons background if he is accepting the homoactivist talking point on the orgins of the behavior.
that is a hedonism.
Is there a "like blonds" gene?
is there a like thin or fat women gene?
All things are behavioral (per skinner) EXCEPT this political issue.
I also find it odd that this is a RELIGIOUS person making a scientific argument.
I would imagine he is a fine man and don't doubt your former pastors words. Before I wrote anything about Mohler I realized my words might come across a little strong. Still, I did that in hopes of encouraging others (and perhaps Mohler) to check the facts a little closer before trying to start a conversation on the matter. BTW, your link requires a subscription so I couldn't read any additional commentary.
"They are in denial, due to so many modern Bible rejecting, blasphemous voices who lie about God"
People like Albert Mohler Huh?
" His Holy Word, and His sure judgement."
Albert Mohler, evidently, thinks he is now more wise than God and isn't afraid of the judgement of Christians or God.
"This is a man who actually has an open mind, who is struggling to reconcile his religious beliefs with facts that contradict it."
Mohler has allowed his facts to be perverted by propaganda promoted by the homosexuals in academia. In other words, he's and educated idiot.
Seems like the Baptist seminary that hired this nitwit, didn't do its homework.
This man knows less of God and what he says about homosexuality than my three year old grandson.
Even if a homosexual gene was discovered today, how would that change your understanding of scripture?
Does the bible say that the nature we are born with is good?
..don't disagree at all
He has been through surgery recently--
perhaps some after effects of anesthesia ; -)
In defense of fundamentals of the faith--there is none better. But as I previously mentioned, in the Southern Baptist world, Dr. Land has the edge in regards to how to discuss spiritual and social matters in a politically charged public arena.
I believe the subscription is free--or at least it was ...
Mohler is taking abuse from the left and the right over this one.
There is no contradiction between Christian doctrine and the theory that we are born with biological predispositions toward certain sins.
Libertarian free will is the pet sin of Americans and the West in general. We do not give enough respect to the fact that we are all very much shaped by our biology, our backgrounds, etc. This is not to deny that sin is sin- but the forces of sin are more powerful than we are and can only be overcome through Jesus Christ.
From what I can tell, there are people who are more oriented to being attracted to the same sex rather than the opposite sex. Many years ago--15 maybe--Billy Graham's magazine had an excellent article about a young man who had experienced this. He didn't act on it because he knew as a Christian that it was wrong and against God's commandments. But normal sexual feelings toward women did not happen until he sought help. He eventually got married and had children. But what I got from this article was that some people seem to be attracted to the same sex from an early age and do not normally feel attracted to the opposite sex without outside help. But this condition can be overcome. An emphasis this man made was that he never acted on his tendencies, so he never had to overcome the sin of active homosexuality.
That would be all heterosexual men. Granted, a lot of hetero men choose not to act on this biological impulse, but it's there in every man.
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