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Giuliani doubters in for Rudy awakening
The Boston Herald ^ | 03/18/2007 | Deroy Murdock

Posted on 03/18/2007 1:31:23 AM PDT by JohnSheppard

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To: narses
Yikes!!! Time for more wine!
151 posted on 03/18/2007 12:11:34 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: LowCountryJoe
Okay. Specifically, why not post the text of those two parables and then discuss how they square (or not) with you political and religious philosophies.

Well, okay, but this could get long and might be better served on the Religion forum.

First the Parable, then the explanation, then whether it squares with my political and religious philosophies.

Wheat and Tares

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Explanation of parable

Matthew 13:37-43 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Comparison to my religious and political philosophies

The good seed is the Gospel of Christ...matches

No mention of spreading democratic republic....matches

Those that don't accept the gospel of Christ will face destruction....matches

Those that accept the gospel of Christ will see the Kingdom of heaven....matches

Now, before you jump to your "tares had no choice to be tares" argument, you need to understand the context of this parable to the whole chapter of Matthew 13 and the rest of the gospel of Christ. (This get's into the discussion of Predestination/elect, which I'm willing to do, but not necessary for a political thread.)

Jesus used multiple parables to illustrate different aspects of what the kingdom of Heaven is like. It was explaining the infinite to the finite human mind. They weren't used as a stand alone explanation of all doctrines.

Canaanite woman

(I think this is what you are referencing)

Matthew 15:22-28 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
BR>

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Notice that Jesus's original purpose was to the "house of Israel." This is understood that she was a Gentile or non-Jew. However, her faith is recognized and her daughter is healed.

I don't see how you can relate this to electing Rudy. If your argument is that the gospel of Jesus is only for some, then that is defeated in not only in the original verses but also in other verses. Such as...

Romans 9:6-8 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

Romans 4:13-14 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


Those who accept Jesus through faith. And that my friend is available to ALL, which is the primary message of Christians.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


That's a eternal message for everyone.

I see no contradiction to my religious or political philosophies.

Sincerely
152 posted on 03/18/2007 12:22:58 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: panaxanax
Okay so he took away some guns. New York City was worse than Dodge and Abeliene. And Like Wild Bill Hickock and Wyatt Earp, Rudy cleaned it up. Earp and Hickock did not allow Guns into town at all. So I guess you think they are kool aid drinking lib's as well, right! Rudy has already said that what was right for NYC is not right for most of the rest of the country so take it easy. Rudy came through like no one else ever did in running a City. he lowered taxes and reduced government. He put away criminals and moved the porn out. he took on the MSM and kicked Arafat off of city property becuase he was a stinking terrorist. He took on PC and Al sharpton. Rudy achieved results on what was IMPORTANT. He almost made NYC livable.
153 posted on 03/18/2007 12:23:08 PM PDT by bilhosty (to hell with ABCNNBCBS)
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To: ZULU

We can agree on the first two issues -- the ones we have already covered. But, I differ on the next two. Homosexuality: it is none of my business what two conscenting adults want to do amongst themselves...my preference is to not make a federal case of it and not have to pay social security survivor benefits for it. Do you really suppose that people choose to be homosexual given the life of torment and isolation they lead in their developmental years? Immigration: allow more immigrants to come here legally and restrict the handouts that they can recieve by the taxpayers. Immigration has always been a boon to our economy.


154 posted on 03/18/2007 12:29:34 PM PDT by LowCountryJoe (I'm a Paleo-liberal: I believe in freedom; am socially independent and a borderline fiscal anarchist)
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To: tkathy

What is that "single issue" in your mind, if you don't mind explaining?

Far as I can tell the single issue is that he's a flaming liberal. THat's makes it an impossible "issue" for a conservative to swallow.


155 posted on 03/18/2007 12:34:39 PM PDT by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: panaxanax

Things that are important, huh? What a ridiculous joke.


156 posted on 03/18/2007 12:35:49 PM PDT by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: EternalVigilance

Exactly. ANd Sean Hannity is Gennifer Flowers.


157 posted on 03/18/2007 12:42:58 PM PDT by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: ScubieNuc

I will not relate the two scriptures of the gospel to a Rudy candidacy. However, I will relate the two issues that you are holding close to your vest; homosexuality (let's not pull up the weeds lest we also uproot good wheat -- let's let God be the judge on judgement day) and immigration (the Caananite woman is only seeking Jesus' help even though she is an outsider -- one with faith -- trying to improve her daughter's lot in life) Did she take anything that didn't belong to her? Was she trying to explain to Jesus that perhaps he should expand His broader border and be more inclusive to those who would be receptive to His ministry? I know this one is a stretch, but that gospel is far from being a xenophobic advocation to shun one's neighbor because of political borders.


158 posted on 03/18/2007 12:45:19 PM PDT by LowCountryJoe (I'm a Paleo-liberal: I believe in freedom; am socially independent and a borderline fiscal anarchist)
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To: bilhosty

"he lowered taxes and reduced government."

No. He lowered some taxes which increased revenues and he SPENT the extra money growing government. He is a gun-grabbing, abortion supporting liberal. No thanks.


159 posted on 03/18/2007 12:50:16 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: bilhosty

160 posted on 03/18/2007 12:51:20 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: azhenfud

"- even partial birth abortions inclusive"

Rudy's position on PBA is the same as Duncan Hunters...FR's darling.


161 posted on 03/18/2007 12:55:44 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: Blackirish

It became the same a month ago. Up until then it was the same as Hillary's.


162 posted on 03/18/2007 12:59:25 PM PDT by garv (Conservatism in '08 www.draftnewt.org)
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To: Blackirish

You mean Rudy has changed directions again? Jeez, this guy is hard to keep up with.

Have you ever wondered why Duncan Hunter is "FR's darling"? It's because he's a CONSERVATIVE and this is a CONSERVATIVE website. Weird, huh?


163 posted on 03/18/2007 1:04:05 PM PDT by panaxanax (Ronald Reagan would vote for Duncan Hunter!)
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To: Blackirish; azhenfud
Rudy's position on PBA is the same as Duncan Hunters...FR's darling.
Nope. Rudy's position is the SAME as Hillary's.

The Hildabeast and the RINO both want almost ALL abortion legal, they use the game of "the life of the mother" exemption as if it is meaningful. Hunter wants almost all abortions made illegal. WAY different.


164 posted on 03/18/2007 1:04:47 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: panaxanax
What is conservative about about being a protectionist? Check that, by old definitions, that is the epitome of conservatism...market unfriendliness.
165 posted on 03/18/2007 1:14:01 PM PDT by LowCountryJoe (I'm a Paleo-liberal: I believe in freedom; am socially independent and a borderline fiscal anarchist)
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To: narses
Get off it narses. It is getting tiresome,.
166 posted on 03/18/2007 1:18:21 PM PDT by Irish Eyes
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To: LowCountryJoe
I will relate the two issues that you are holding close to your vest; homosexuality (let's not pull up the weeds lest we also uproot good wheat -- let's let God be the judge on judgement day) and immigration

First, you have a misunderstanding of "judgement." God will ultimately judge everyone. I never said otherwise. That kind of judgement is one which carries punishment for sin. I've not said anything about supporting a candidate who tries to punish homosexuals.

However, the Bible clearly allows for Christians to make judgements. That simply means making correct decisions. I have to make judgements about raising my children and their actions. As a church members we have to make judgements on proper conduct and punishment of church members.

As a citizen of the United States, I am given the responsibility to make proper judgements for the direction of our country through my vote on a representative. If that representative is going to support a behavior that is clearly a sin, then I cannot support that through that representative. Especially when it envolves the institution of marriage. (He is also for open homosexuality in the military, which will destroy your main support point for Rudy...defense of the Republic.)

Second, I think you have me confused with someone else when you mention immigration. I said abortion and homosexuality were my main moral issues.

Sincerely
167 posted on 03/18/2007 1:18:22 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: panaxanax; narses

Yet, on the Fox News show, Giuliani said that he supports a ban on partial-birth abortion as long as there is a provision to protect the life of the mother.


"If it has provision for the life of the mother, then I would support it," he told the Fox News program.


Washington, D.C. – The House of Representatives yesterday passed H.R. 760, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, by a margin of 282-139. Congressman Duncan Hunter (CA-52), who is a cosponsor of the legislation, proudly voted in favor of this measure which prohibits medical doctors, except in situations where the LIFE OF THE MOTHER is threatened, from utilizing certain procedures that involve the partial delivery of a living unborn baby, killing the child, then completing the delivery




As far as Hunter's credentials are concerned he certainly isn't a fiscal conservative and after the spending binge the curreent crew of repubs have been on letting another big spending socon near the checkbook .....the voters won't have it. He has no chance.

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2006/10/duncan_hunters_voting_record.php


168 posted on 03/18/2007 1:18:37 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: ScubieNuc

My applogies about being wrong about your stance. But I would like to point to the usage of the word "judgement" in the context of where I was going. "Judgement", refered to a ruling/decree/official decision as I was using it. A more apt word to what you are describing is discrimination -- and, no, that is not a word that should conjure negative connotations Right off the bat as it seems to these days.


169 posted on 03/18/2007 1:29:45 PM PDT by LowCountryJoe (I'm a Paleo-liberal: I believe in freedom; am socially independent and a borderline fiscal anarchist)
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To: Irish Eyes

170 posted on 03/18/2007 1:34:18 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Blackirish; panaxanax

"Yet, on the Fox News show, Giuliani said that he supports a ban on partial-birth abortion as long as there is a provision to protect the life of the mother."

Finally. And just barely. All other abortions appear OK to him. NOT so Hunter. As for fiscal issues, Rudy spent WAAAAY more than anyone before him as Mayor.


171 posted on 03/18/2007 1:36:14 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: narses
As for fiscal issues, Rudy spent WAAAAY more than anyone before him as Mayor.



Every politician in the our history has spent more then the predessor. Because our population continues to grow. But by cutting taxes...cutting bureaucracy...cutting crime...Rudy G accomplished much more in a just two terms as Mayor of NYCity then Hunter has done in 20 in congress.

No comparison.
172 posted on 03/18/2007 1:48:51 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: Blackirish

Hunter served, Rudy evaded. Sorry, a draft-evader who wants to grab guns, supports abortion, so called 'gay rights' and sanctuary cities isn't a conservative. Not even a little.


173 posted on 03/18/2007 1:50:39 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Caipirabob

Would you consider supporting the former Seanator from Tennessee, Fred Thompson?


174 posted on 03/18/2007 1:53:13 PM PDT by no dems (Herman Cain for VEEP in '08)
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To: narses

Blah...blah...blah....

Hunter has as much chance of being the next POTUS as Custer's Bugler.

And all your spamming has done is annoy folks so much that it has drivin down traffic on FR and pushed more folks into the Rudy camp.


175 posted on 03/18/2007 1:56:37 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: Blackirish
LOL, you represent liberalism well.


176 posted on 03/18/2007 1:59:54 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: LowCountryJoe
"Homosexuality: it is none of my business what two consenting adults want to do amongst themselves...my preference is to not make a federal case of it and not have to pay social security survivor benefits for it."

Basically I agree with you from a philosophical perspective. However, following that road has resulted in intolerable problems. Not only are being asked to "tolerate" homosexuality, the activist homosexual community is DEMANDING equivalence with heterosexuality, and ENDORSEMENT by society of what is essential an unnatural and perverted practice. EVEN IN SCHOOLS, children are now being taught that homosexuality is an "acceptable alternative lifestyle" Consequently, I'm all for shutting them back in the closet, and nailing the door closed.

Mr. Giuliani does NOT see things from my perspective.

"Do you really suppose that people choose to be homosexual given the life of torment and isolation they lead in their developmental years?"

I think some people have an uncontrollable predilection for that lifestyle due to biological factors beyond their control. I sympathize with them as long as they restrict their activities to themselves and others who are of a like inclination and do not seek society's imprimatur on their behavior. BUT I ALOS believe a SOCIETY can develop in which homosexuality has become SO TOLERATED, and SO INSTITUTIONALIZED that even people who do not have a biological imperative to practice it do so. For instance - the Ancient Spartans, Later Republican Rome and Imperial Rome, the Mochicas and Chimus of South America, and the Ottoman Turks. Its IMPOSSIBLE for all the people who practised that perversion in those societies were driven by such a uncontrollable biological urge. Its something which had become accepted and then endorsed - just as the homosuxual community in the modern western world is attempting to do with their perversion.

"Immigration: allow more immigrants to come here legally and restrict the handouts that they can receive by the taxpayers. Immigration has always been a boon to our economy."

Again, we don't really have an issue here. The issue isn't IMMIGRATION. Immigrants are people who come here LEGALLY, who wish to become AMERICANS and admire and wish to absorb our culture.

Mr. Giuliani supports ILLEGAL INVADERS - people who break our laws to come here and then secure benefits from our society. He supported them while mayor of New York and has not expressed any intention of changing his mind on this subject.

And I agree that LEGAL immigrants are the lifeblood of our society. "Guest Workers" are merely a Trojan horse for more illegal invaders, and a prop to support corrupt corporate interests who have no desire to provide American workers and legal resident aliens with a decent living.
177 posted on 03/18/2007 2:17:36 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Blackirish
And all your spamming has done is annoy folks so much that it has drivin down traffic on FR and pushed more folks into the Rudy camp.

I'm not sure how you can tally traffic on FR and then determine that it's because of the anti-Rudy postings and not because NCAA Basketball Tournament is on, or some other reason. I'm going call.....

B.S.

Then to assume that the anti-Rudy postings drive people to Rudy....that's funny.

I suppose that you look at the little poll on FR and see nothing but roses that Rudy leads all choices if the vote were held today. I suppose that you also miss that he gets only 46% of the vote. That means that 54% of FR doesn't support him.

You get that poll over 51% when we get near the primaries and you can feel pretty good about your boy, Rudy. Until then, any thinking person will see all these "go Rudy" posts as nothing but hot air.

Sincerely
178 posted on 03/18/2007 2:30:10 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: ZULU

I enjoyed your reply. If only more people could have the same level of discourse in this forum about these particular issues.


179 posted on 03/18/2007 2:41:23 PM PDT by LowCountryJoe (I'm a Paleo-liberal: I believe in freedom; am socially independent and a borderline fiscal anarchist)
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To: ScubieNuc; Blackirish

We can all cherish our fantasies. Blackirish fantasies a world where FR loves Rudy. It is a fantasy, but it is his.


180 posted on 03/18/2007 2:45:10 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Blackirish

Horseshit.


181 posted on 03/18/2007 3:27:51 PM PDT by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: ScubieNuc; narses

I'm not sure how you can tally traffic on FR and then determine that it's because of the anti-Rudy postings and not because NCAA Basketball Tournament is on, or some other reason. I'm going call.....




There has been a couple of threads on FR about traffic being down and that was well before the NCAA'S but pretty much started when the people started developing RDS (Rudy Derangement Syndrome).

"Then to assume that the anti-Rudy postings drive people to Rudy....that's funny."

Tons of people have posted that they were on the fence until they read the vitiolic rantings of the RudyHaters and for now are supporting Rudy.


Some of the symptoms of RDS are giant caps and constant spamming.


182 posted on 03/18/2007 3:32:15 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: tkathy; Hydroshock; Antoninus

Yea,
I think there is significant pushback against the single issue Rudy voters who ARE hurting the party...


183 posted on 03/18/2007 4:03:18 PM PDT by GulfBreeze (Vote the FREEPERS choice, Duncan Hunter - www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=170)
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To: panaxanax

ping back


184 posted on 03/18/2007 4:05:07 PM PDT by GulfBreeze (Vote the FREEPERS choice, Duncan Hunter - www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=170)
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To: JohnSheppard
The only people who thought McCain had it wrapped up were wishful thinking Democrats.
185 posted on 03/18/2007 4:07:47 PM PDT by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
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To: GulfBreeze

I am not opposing Rio Rudy on just one issue but many. Guns, gay, abortion, global warming, just to name a few.


186 posted on 03/18/2007 5:15:07 PM PDT by Hydroshock (Duncan Hunter For President, checkout gohunter08.com.)
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To: pissant; Blackirish
"Horseshit."

Extremely well articulated, Pissant.

Rudy's position - "...asked whether he (Giuliani) would support a ban on partial-birth abortions, he told CNN: "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position changing.""

Now Blackirish, since Rep Duncan Hunter is a co-sponsor of the PBA BAN legislation, I would invite you to back up your assertion the two men share common conviction on PBA.

187 posted on 03/18/2007 7:29:44 PM PDT by azhenfud (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: azhenfud

If you think cursing at another poster makes an "articulate" debate....well

I've never done it and never will.

I reject the premise of your post.


188 posted on 03/18/2007 7:45:42 PM PDT by Blackirish (Happy St. Pats!)
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To: Hydroshock

I know that hydro.... I have a problem with the single (or really ZERO) issue supporters who seem to have No isuues causing the m to support Rudy. See my post again.


189 posted on 03/18/2007 11:05:59 PM PDT by GulfBreeze (Vote the FREEPERS choice, Duncan Hunter - www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=170)
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To: Blackirish; narses
There has been a couple of threads on FR about traffic being down....

Tons of people have posted...


That's your proof? LOL

That's just like the circular reasoning used by the liberal press when they quote each other as sources.

You remind me of a REO Speedwagon song..."heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it from another..."

Sincerely
190 posted on 03/19/2007 4:26:12 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: Blackirish; pissant
If you think cursing at another poster makes an "articulate" debate....well

It's no more "cursing" than the employ of the word "frigging", with exception the intent is more direct articulation.

I've never done it and never will.

Your posting record is available for everyone to see.

I reject the premise of your post.

Okay. But if you aren't capable of discernment between Hunter's co-sponsorship and support of the bill banning PBA and Giuliani's statement that he never supported nor believed his position would ever change to support such a bill equates to the same position, either you're being purposefully dishonest or simply ignorant.

You've frequently deposited the same equestrian emitted former field fodder without due challenge, so I ask you simply back up your assertion. Is my description of your posts more politically suitable than the more direct approach employed by Pissant?

A while back a fellow poster, whom I still admire, challenged FReepers provide him a list of five judge appointments of Giuliani who are liberals. I took that challenge and gave him the list and provided the links to the info on their bio's. Since, there have been a lot more inquiry into those justices' records.

Don't think for a moment that just because you think something you post is unquestionable and it sounds good to you, others won't do investigative homework.

I could say the point is, if you repeatedly post the same garbage - even though others ignore you with the fervency of an adolescent's pimple, sooner or later someone will challenge you to provide support for your claim because the cyst is simply annoying to look at but I, kind of, impasse.

191 posted on 03/19/2007 6:21:44 AM PDT by azhenfud (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: azhenfud

Horse poop actually is pretty inoffensive. Slapping a Rudy millstone around DH's neck reeks.


192 posted on 03/19/2007 6:32:00 AM PDT by pissant (http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: Nextrush

I don't like Rudy, but I'd vote for him before I'd vote for McCain. At least in the primaries.
Fortunately, I don't think I'll have to make that choice.


193 posted on 03/19/2007 6:34:34 AM PDT by Little Ray (Proud to be one of "...the most paranoid, xenophobic and reactionary characters...")
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To: All

194 posted on 03/19/2007 10:40:16 PM PDT by Al Simmons (THIS is why we need RUDY in 2008!!!!!)
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To: ScubieNuc; All
aligncare wrote on another thread:

"Yet, the anti Rudy types do nothing but launch personal attacks on their fellow conservatives on the Giuliani boards."

My comment: They are unwittingly taking the bait laid out by Hitlary/Soros and the entire Democrat smear machine - which is where the out-of-context, ancient, misleading 'quotes' and stories' are coming from.

It does not speak well of the members of this forum that they have fallen so gullibly into the 'Toon's machine's trap.

195 posted on 03/20/2007 8:56:05 AM PDT by Al Simmons (Rudy will beat Hitlary. The Toon's smear machine is working overtime. Are you helping them?)
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To: JohnSheppard

New York's bravest take fight to Giuliani

* Sarah Baxter, New York
* March 19, 2007

FIRE battalion chief Jim Riches brought up his son to be one of New York's bravest, like him. The young Jim followed his father into the New York Fire Department, and died in the World Trade Centre on September 11, 2001.
What followed turned his heartbroken father into a relentless opponent of Rudy Giuliani, then mayor of New York. With other families of 9/11 victims, Mr Riches has vowed to torpedo Mr Giuliani's prospects of winning the White House by attacking his greatest source of strength, his reputation as a hero that day.

"We're going to follow him around the country," said Mr Riches, 55. "We want all of America to know he is not the man he says he is."

Helped by the firefighters' union, Mr Riches and his friends are preparing to "swiftboat" Mr Giuliani, borrowing the tactics of the Republican-backed Vietnam veterans, under the title Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, who pierced the Democratic nominee John Kerry's seemingly armour-plated credentials as a decorated war hero during the 2004 presidential campaign.


196 posted on 03/20/2007 9:03:49 AM PDT by epow (My job is so secret that I'm not allowed to know what I'm doing.)
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To: JohnSheppard

"Douglas Brinkley, a biographer of Senator Kerry, said: "Pitting the two heroes of 9/11 - Giuliani and the firefighters - against each other will be the Swift Boat campaign all over again. Mr Giuliani has marketed himself brilliantly as the leader of 9/11, but this will damage him. Americans respect the firemen more than they respect him."

Several US news organisations are preparing exposes of the "untold story" of 9/11 after Mr Giuliani's dispute with the firefighters became embarrassingly public last week.

He was the only leading presidential candidate not to appear at a Washington gathering of the International Association of Fire Fighters, which accused him of showing a "disgraceful lack of respect for the fallen" after the September 11 attacks.

Behind the union's attack lies the grief and anger of families who believe their loved ones need not have died that day, and their conviction that some bodies would never have been recovered if Mr Giuliani had his way.

Jim Riches, 29, was helping to rescue office workers in the north tower when it collapsed. In the dust and debris, his fellow firefighters did not realise the south tower had already crashed to the ground. Despite the terrifying noise, survivors say they thought only the top storeys had toppled. They never heard the order to evacuate. "My son could have had 30 minutes to escape," his father said.

The firefighters were still using the antiquated "handie-talkie" radios that failed to work during the 1993 bombing of the twin towers, when Mr Giuliani was still mayor. He not only failed to replace them, but also located the city's new emergency command centre at the World Trade Centre against the advice of key officials. The command post proved useless when it was most needed.

Lack of communication meant that warnings from police helicopters about an imminent collapse failed to get through. Jim Riches was one of 343 firefighters who died. His father spent day after dat sifting through the wreckage for bodies, eager for some sign of his son.

In November, Mr Giuliani ordered a halt to the work after the remains of 91 firefighters had been recovered. "


197 posted on 03/20/2007 9:06:59 AM PDT by epow (My job is so secret that I'm not allowed to know what I'm doing.)
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To: Al Simmons
They are unwittingly taking the bait laid out by Hitlary/Soros and the entire Democrat smear machine - which is where the out-of-context, ancient, misleading 'quotes' and stories' are coming from.

Are you saying that Rudy is now against Homosexuals marrying? He is now against Abortion? He is now against open Homosexuals in the military?

These are key social issues with me. It's not 'quotes and stories' that are swaying me, but Rudy's documented stances.

Sincerely
198 posted on 03/20/2007 10:08:15 AM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: Blackirish; pissant
Rudy's position on PBA is the same as Duncan Hunters

You can repeat that lie all you want, but those stubborn facts won't go away. Hunter (and Fred Thompson) voted for a PBA ban with a provision for the life of the mother. Rudy supported Clinton's veto of such. Past actions speak far louder than words spoken when votes are suddenly needed from a new constituency.

Throw in Rudy's recent support of pro-choice positions and his addressing NARAL not once, but TWICE, and you have a lot of gall even trying to compare Rudy and Hunter on abortion.

199 posted on 03/20/2007 10:12:23 AM PDT by dirtboy (Duncan Hunter 08)
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To: panaxanax
Anyone that supports a liberal candidate that is pro-gay, pro-late term abortion and anti-2nd Amendment should not be allowed to call themselves a FReeper.

Who made you hall monitor?
200 posted on 03/20/2007 10:21:28 AM PDT by Beckwith (The dhimmicrats and liberal media have chosen sides and they've sided with the Jihadists.)
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