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Yes, the Second Amendment Guarantees an Individual Right to Bear Arms
realclearpolitics.com ^ | March 20, 2007 | Pierre Atlas

Posted on 03/20/2007 4:04:15 PM PDT by neverdem

On March 9, the Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia issued a groundbreaking ruling. It declared in a 2-1 decision that the Washington, D.C. ban on handgun possession in private homes, in effect since 1976, is unconstitutional. The court reached this conclusion after stating unequivocally that the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms applies to individuals and not just "the militia."

It is quite likely that this ruling will be appealed to Supreme Court, which hasn't offered an interpretation of the Second Amendment since 1939.

Appalled by the District Court ruling, the Washington Post editorialized that it will "give a new and dangerous meaning to the Second Amendment" that, if applied nationally, could imperil "every gun control law on the books."

The Post accused the National Rifle Association and the Bush administration's Justice Department of trying "to broadly reinterpret the Constitution so as to give individuals Second Amendment rights."

But actually, to argue that the Second Amendment does not apply to individuals is a reinterpretation of the Constitution and the original intent of the founders.

One of the major concerns of the anti-Federalists during the debate over the Constitution in 1787 was the fact that the new document lacked a Bill of Rights. In order to get the Constitution ratified, the framers promised to pass a Bill of Rights during the First Congress as amendments to the Constitution. The Second Amendment with its right to keep and bear arms became part of that package.

What was the original intent of the Second Amendment? Was the right to bear arms a collective right for militias, or an individual right for all citizens? The "Dissent of the Pennsylvania Minority," from the debates of 1787, is telling. This document speaks...

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2a; banglist
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To: Zon
"So "the people" in the 1st Amendment is an individual right but in the 2nd Amendment "the people" is a collective right."

Given the prefatory clause of the second amendment (which is missing from the first amendment, thereby making a comparison between the two amendments ludicrous), "the people" in the second amendment is an individual right applied collectively.

According to the gun grabbing courts.

Why isn't concealed carry legal in every state if the second amendment protects that right?

21 posted on 03/20/2007 4:47:49 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen

That is a really good point.


22 posted on 03/20/2007 4:48:55 PM PDT by Wildbill22
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To: robertpaulsen
Given the prefatory clause of the second amendment (which is missing from the first amendment, thereby making a comparison between the two amendments ludicrous), "the people" in the second amendment is an individual right applied collectively.

If you read Alexander Hamilton's writing in the Federalist (compiled by me and posted on this FR topic) on his interpretation of the militia and the people and the right to bear arms, you see that he envisioned the militia as something that might meet once or twice a year, and only for the purpose of regulating (minimal training to act as a unit).

Therefore, I'm saying that the original intent of "well regulated" was to have minimal training to act as a unit, and "militia" was the population-at-large. It's a stretch to say that it's a collective right applied individually when the collective would only meet once or twice a year, and the people "keep" their own arms instead of them being stored in some collective armory only to be gotten and used when the militia is called out.

-PJ

23 posted on 03/20/2007 4:57:34 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: robertpaulsen

It seems that many if not most state's constitutions go into much more detail as to the "individual" right to keep and bear arms. So with that in mind then how can the Federal Government be MORE restrictive if the 2nd Ammendment to the Constitution is to express the STATE right to individual arms? It would seem any firearms laws passed by congress EVER would then be unconstitutional?


24 posted on 03/20/2007 5:03:16 PM PDT by Wildbill22
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To: robertpaulsen
Actually our old friend the 14th amendment states that no state shall deny any citizen of the US any rights or privileges enjoyed by any other citizen. This is largely ignored however. If DC cant ban guns how can any state. The laws must be uniform from state to state as required by the constitution amdt 14.If SCOTUS upholds this decision, I hope some one brings a suit based on the 14th
barbra ann
25 posted on 03/20/2007 5:06:27 PM PDT by barb-tex (Why replace the IRS with anything?)
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To: robertpaulsen
Easy. The same way Congress passes legislation restricting speech when the first amendment clearly states, "Congress shall make NO law ..."

The SCOTUS has reversed itself before. I believe that error will be corrected, at the very least the 30 days prior to a primary election and the 60 days prior to a general election restrictions. Have you read the D.C. Circuit Court's decision?

26 posted on 03/20/2007 5:10:19 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: supercat
Actually, it was common place for a man to carry his pistol under his coat at the end of the 18th century. Also, at the time, before lawyers started unraveling our constitution and reinterpreting plain English, bear simply meant bear (to carry). Outside of your coat or inside of your coat, had our founding fathers not intended for us to bear concealed arms, I believe they would have said so. They were foolish enough, however, to actually believe people beyond their years would take their simple English at its meaning (their only mistake). Now we have the problems we have today with multiple interpretations of the second amendment.
27 posted on 03/20/2007 5:10:52 PM PDT by Hambone02 (NEW-DUNC '08 !!!!!!)
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To: robertpaulsen

Not according to the 14th Amendment.
barbra ann


28 posted on 03/20/2007 5:11:15 PM PDT by barb-tex (Why replace the IRS with anything?)
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To: Wildbill22
From the article;

"Is the right to bear arms a collective right or an individual right? The answer, according to this document and the writings of others at the time of the founding, is both. "

A point I have tried to make here a few times.

29 posted on 03/20/2007 5:11:41 PM PDT by labette (To hit the ball and touch 'em all. A moment in the sun.)
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To: supercat
Actually, it was common place for a man to carry his pistol under his coat at the end of the 18th century. Also, at the time, before lawyers started unraveling our constitution and reinterpreting plain English, bear simply meant bear (to carry). Outside of your coat or inside of your coat, had our founding fathers not intended for us to bear concealed arms, I believe they would have said so. They were foolish enough, however, to actually believe people beyond their years would take their simple English at its meaning (their only mistake). Now we have the problems we have today with multiple interpretations of the second amendment.
30 posted on 03/20/2007 5:11:59 PM PDT by Hambone02 (NEW-DUNC '08 !!!!!!)
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To: Sender; Jeff Head
Exactly.

And, as Judge Silberman said in the DC decision, if people as smart as Madison and Adams wanted this to be only for militias, they would have said just that, and NOT added "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." End of story, we keep our guns.

31 posted on 03/20/2007 5:12:57 PM PDT by Pharmboy ([She turned me into a] Newt! in '08)
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To: robertpaulsen
Why isn't concealed carry legal in every state if the second amendment protects that right?

Because liberals don't care what the constitution says and are out to ban guns...as evidenced by their move in DC to ban them in homes.
32 posted on 03/20/2007 5:13:35 PM PDT by Old_Mil (Duncan Hunter in 2008! A Veteran, A Patriot, A Reagan Republican... http://www.gohunter08.com/)
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To: Political Junkie Too
I'm simply stating what the second amendment protects from federal infringement.

"Therefore, I'm saying that the original intent of "well regulated" was to have minimal training to act as a unit, and "militia" was the population-at-large."

Well, according to the Militia Act of 1792, "militia" was "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years".

As far as an individual right to keep and bear arms, that was (and still is) up to each state. If a state wishes for arms to be kept at home, fine. If they want the arms kept in an armory, fine also. If a state wishes to limit its citizen's access to arms, that's up to them (assuming the state constitution allows it).

33 posted on 03/20/2007 5:20:19 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Political Junkie Too

The current definition of "militia" is in Title 10, Section 311, and includes all males older than 17 and younger than 45, women who are in the National Guard (aka "organized militia" and persons who have prior military service to age 65.

I submit that the current definition is an unconstitutional limitation on the rights of women and older people, as the 14th Amendment gives to all citizens rights that can not be removed by the states, and to all persons (not just citizens or National Guard members) protection of due process of law. Prior restraint (condemnation before committing a crime) upon keeping and bearing arms is, to my mind, a violation of due process.


34 posted on 03/20/2007 5:27:20 PM PDT by donmeaker (The speed of light is 186,234 miles per second. Not just a good idea, its the LAW!)
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To: robertpaulsen
If a state wishes for arms to be kept at home, fine. If they want the arms kept in an armory, fine also.

How does that contrast with the 2nd amendment phrase "the right of the people to keep" arms?

If "people" doesn't mean individual people, but a collective militia, does "keep" not really mean keep at home with the person? I get worried when I'm told that the plain language doesn't mean what it plainly says.

I interpret the right of the people to keep arms to mean that individual people have the right to own (and keep) arms with themselves. I do not interpret it to mean that they must be locked away in an armory only to be gotten by somebody else' permission. That doesn't sound like "keeping" to me.

-PJ

35 posted on 03/20/2007 5:32:24 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: robertpaulsen

Given the prefatory clause of the second amendment (which is missing from the first amendment, thereby making a comparison between the two amendments ludicrous), "the people" in the second amendment is an individual right applied collectively.

LOL!! Your double-think is fooling only you. The first amendment has a prefatory (2: located in front) of "the people". Your argument is sooo lame, and completely irrelevant.

You'd have readers of your post believe that the 2nd amendment was necessary to ensure that men going into battle (the militia) would have guns because without the second amendment they would have gone into battle without guns. 

Why isn't concealed carry legal in every state if the second amendment protects that right?

Because, just like you, many politicians and bureaucrats disregard the original meaning of the constitution. In violation of the 2nd amendment they made it illegal to conceal carry. Your question presupposes that State and federal politicians and bureaucrats wouldn't and don't violate individual rights and create unconstitutional laws.

The fourteenth amendment was for the most part specifically to allow blacks to keep and bear arms to protect themselves, in self-defense. From the article:

 "The statement of February 28, 1866 by Nevada Senator James Nye was fairly typical: "As citizens of the United States they [black persons] have equal right to protection, and to keep and bear arms for self-defense."" 

"The understanding that the Second Amendment applied to individual citizens was reiterated during the 1866 Congressional debates over the Freedmen's Bureau Bill and the proposed Fourteenth Amendment.

"The Radical Republicans wanted to apply all the Bill of Rights protections to the recently freed former slaves in the South, America's newest citizens. The "freedmen," as they were called, needed the right to bear arms in particular in order to defend themselves against the white night-riders who were terrorizing the black population.

"The statement of February 28, 1866 by Nevada Senator James Nye was fairly typical: "As citizens of the United States they have equal right to protection, and to keep and bear arms for self-defense.""

36 posted on 03/20/2007 5:32:29 PM PDT by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: neverdem
Appalled by the District Court ruling, the Washington Post editorialized that it will "give a new and dangerous meaning to the Second Amendment" that, if applied nationally, could imperil "every gun control law on the books."

Sounds good to me.

"right of the people and "shall not be infringed" is pretty strong language, with very little wiggle room for any sort of "gun control" that applies to otherwise law abiding peaceable citizens.

All it would take is for the Supreme Court to hear and uphold this decision, and federal gun control, other than that which affects convicted felons and such, is gone, including the National Firearms Act. One more ruling, on a state level gun control law, declaring that the second is "incorporated" against state and local infringement as well (being fundamental to ordered liberty), and poof, state and local gun control is also gone the way of the passenger pigeon.

Of course all that should have occurred in beginning in 1939 or so.

37 posted on 03/20/2007 5:35:24 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Wildbill22

My homeowners association would probably never let me have a howitzer unless I kept it inside my garage.


38 posted on 03/20/2007 5:36:56 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th
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To: Cooking101
Why would they have needed to amend the Constitution to allow our military to bear arms?

The militia is not the military, any more than the posse is the sheriff or police. Both are US, that is "the people".

39 posted on 03/20/2007 5:37:30 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Hambone02

Very good point - the thought that you would have to file papers an pay to carry a weapon would cause old Tom to turn in his grave.


40 posted on 03/20/2007 5:37:37 PM PDT by majormaturity
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