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U.S. Would Have Fired on The Iranians
UK Independent via. Hot Air ^

Posted on 03/25/2007 5:30:55 PM PDT by Weight of Glory

The executive officer - second-in-command on USS Underwood, the frigate working in the British-controlled task force with HMS Cornwall - said: “The unique US Navy rules of engagement say we not only have a right to self-defence but also an obligation to self-defence. They [the British] had every right in my mind and every justification to defend themselves rather than allow themselves to be taken. Our reaction was, ‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”…

(Excerpt) Read more at hotair.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: geopolitics; iran; rulesofengagement; selfdefence; uk; wot
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To: OldFriend

Different time and different place.


51 posted on 03/25/2007 6:18:33 PM PDT by ItisaReligionofPeace
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To: Weight of Glory

I must say that this was truly stupid.

In the first place, if you send your troops into harm's way, you have an obligation to defend them. I said the same thing about those National Guard troops on the Mexican border. If you don't want a provocation, then don't send in the troops. But you don't put troops on the line without the means to defend themselves.

In the second place, these bloody politicians and admirals now have created a first class mess for themselves. If they don't give a damn about their troops, you'd think they'd at least want to avoid getting themselves into a mess.

Once the Iranians went off with the hostages, the damage was done. Now they are between a rock and a hard place, and no matter what they do, the hostages' lives are at risk.


52 posted on 03/25/2007 6:18:56 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: OldFriend

Like the guard ran away from the border too.


53 posted on 03/25/2007 6:19:58 PM PDT by ustanker (Secure the border!)
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To: clintonh8r
Why even bother to have a Royal Navy if the SOP is to "de-escalate"?

Blair is working on that. He's cutting the fleet to 22 - that's right, 22 - ships. He's also cut out paratroop training for the army, and liquidated formerly elite units.

54 posted on 03/25/2007 6:21:53 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Elsiejay
With the USS Cole, the terrorists had an easy shot at her because President Clinton had directed that USN vessals refuel within the Port of Yemen.

Previously, and most likely in effect again post September 11, 2001, the US & Coalition vessels would refuel away from UAE Ports.

55 posted on 03/25/2007 6:21:56 PM PDT by ExcursionGuy84 ("Jesus, Your Love takes my breath away.")
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To: casino66

I doubt very much that they were on the Iranian side of the water. By the time the boat was surrounded, it was a bit late, but they could have fired warning shots when they saw the Iranians leave the shore.

Except that the rules of engagement didn't allow it. So if what you say is true, then it just means that the moment when it became too late to take useful action was just a little earlier.


56 posted on 03/25/2007 6:22:25 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: farlander
very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting...

When the school bully knows you won't fight back, you'll be handing him your lunch money every day.

57 posted on 03/25/2007 6:22:55 PM PDT by Wheee The People (Go FRed)
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To: farlander
… Rather than roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were, in effect, able to be captured and taken away.”

Come on you Limies! You'd never have hung on to the Colonies with an attitude like that... Oh, you lost your colonies didn't you. Well, you're sure as hell not going to survive as a nation if you keep this BS up.

Come on! We need you as an Allie.

58 posted on 03/25/2007 6:23:35 PM PDT by Barnacle (Free Republic, The First Amendment at work protecting the others.)
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To: mikrofon

Hornblower and Pelliew (sp?)


59 posted on 03/25/2007 6:29:27 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2
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To: DogBarkTree
I would never say that we or our Brit pals cant fight and kick butt but Id be willing to bet if this were 15 Yanks instead of Brits the outcome would have been the same.

When the USS Pueblo was hijacked in international waters by the NKoreans in 1968, we allowed the crew to remain captives of the NKoreans for 11 months rather than create an "international incident".

IMO, there would be fewer possibilities for "international incidents" if response was swift and sure everytime a rogue nation pulled a stunt like this. After the Pueblo was hijacked, the Enterprise was off the coast of NKorea the next day. Had I been in charge, I'd have parked 5 F-4s out the deck and invited the NKoreans to come take a look. Then, I'd let them know that they had 24 hours to release the ship and the crew intact. After that, a NKorean city would disappear every 2 hours until the ship and crew were released or there just wasn't anything left to destroy.

Unfortunately, we abandoned that crew to the "negotiators" for 11 months!! BS!!!

60 posted on 03/25/2007 6:29:39 PM PDT by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: Weight of Glory

The fagafacation of the west is destroying us.


61 posted on 03/25/2007 6:30:16 PM PDT by coon2000
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To: casino66

Didn't the brits invent radar


62 posted on 03/25/2007 6:31:21 PM PDT by kvanbrunt2
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To: DogBarkTree
It means that Horner is 2nd guessing the Brits. I have no doubt our guys would have had to get the OK to fire. By the time they got it they would have been surrounded like the Brits. Horner should have just STFU.

On the contrary, Horner said exactly what he should have said. The last thing we need out there is brass talking like wimps. The Iranians, and everyone else who's after us, needs to believe that if they attack us, they will die. I can't say for sure exactly what our response would have been had it happened to one of our ships, although I would hope that the lessons of the last few years would have had us fighting back at all costs, but if anyone in a position of authority gives even the slightest hint of weakness, they will only be inviting attack on our troops.
63 posted on 03/25/2007 6:32:31 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Cicero
Not arguing, but do we know where/when the Iranians first appeared. Would their rubber boats, which I think they were using also, appear on radar. Don't know any of the answers. I think we have to wait until the whole incident appears on YouTube before we will have the answers. :-)

Is it me, or has this whole incident disappeared from the MSM? I even checked Fox earlier today and they were running something about Britney Spears. This is an ally
64 posted on 03/25/2007 6:32:42 PM PDT by casino66 ("We'll succeed," Bush added, "unless we quit.")
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To: casino66

My computer has a mind of its own sometimes.

This is an ally that stood with us and the newsers seem to be ignoring it already. /rant


65 posted on 03/25/2007 6:34:34 PM PDT by casino66 ("We'll succeed," Bush added, "unless we quit.")
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To: LikeLight
Admirals who refuse to acknowledge they're in a war, even while their men (and a woman) are under direct attack from the enemy...

Consider who he works for. If he word "war" passes his lips, he probably gets sacked immediately.

66 posted on 03/25/2007 6:35:03 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("Wise men don't need to debate; men who need to debate are not wise." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Spktyr
The British navy hasn't officially ruled the seas since WW2, and unofficially since WW1.

The mort accurate date would probably be the Washington Treaty of 1922.

67 posted on 03/25/2007 6:35:49 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: mad_as_he$$

The HMS Cornwall did have a helo in the air monitoring the boarding operation. They detected the Iranian patrol boats shortly after they left port and were on a heading to intercept the boarded frieghter. Commodore Lambert in an interview with the BBC said of the incident, that the sailors appeared to be safe, and that they had behaved in an ”extremely professional way, in line with the rules of engagement.”


68 posted on 03/25/2007 6:37:26 PM PDT by gpapa (Boost FR Traffic! Make FR your home page!)
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To: DustyMoment

"IMO, there would be fewer possibilities for "international incidents" if response was swift and sure everytime a rogue nation pulled a stunt like this"

Indeed!


69 posted on 03/25/2007 6:37:44 PM PDT by Weight of Glory
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To: casino66
Why not call in some air support. I assume they had radios. A flight of A-10's or Tornadoes would be preferred, but even F/A-18's with sidewinders would have been able to put a hurting on the patrol boats.
70 posted on 03/25/2007 6:41:20 PM PDT by Fraxinus (My opinion worth what you paid.)
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To: kvanbrunt2
Didn't the brits invent radar

No, Germans did some of the earliest work. The Americans, Germans, French, and British all developed working radars at roughly the same time.

71 posted on 03/25/2007 6:42:07 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Cicero; 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

Found this on the Long War thread:

"Everything I saw said Iraqi fisherman...9:10 in the mornin'
local time...they had a helo up that saw the iranian boats
"leave port",,,port must be close to the border,,,the
helo up and reporting tells us that the Cornwall was some
distance back from the border...

1,017 posted on 03/25/2007 9:12:02 PM EDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68


72 posted on 03/25/2007 6:42:44 PM PDT by casino66 ("We'll succeed," Bush added, "unless we quit.")
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To: Weight of Glory

I doubt if the US Navy would have done anything different. In fact, last fall the new Centcom commander, Admiral Fallon, who was then the Pacific commander, when a Chinese sub suddenly surfaced within the security zone of a US carrier, went kowtowing to Beijing uttering, "We knew you were there, we just didn't want to create an international incident". I imagine he'll soil his trousers when Iamadinnerjacket bluffs him with a nuke.


73 posted on 03/25/2007 6:45:09 PM PDT by ArtyFO (I love to smoke cigars when I adjust artillery fire at the moonbat loonery.)
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To: casino66

See #68. All we know is what they tell us, but it's looking more and more as if the rules of engagement were the problem. They had plenty of backup and they saw the boats coming, but they did nothing.

At some point, the ship captain called his superiors for permission to fire, and was refused. I don't know how far up the chain of command that went. But obviously, if it has to go all the way up the chain of command and you have to call a meeting of politicians in England before you're given permission to fire, then it's too late.


74 posted on 03/25/2007 6:45:29 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Enterprise

LOL


75 posted on 03/25/2007 6:47:55 PM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: PAR35

The Brits were a little ahead of the US with radar, and we drew on their work. I believe Raytheon was central to our effort.


76 posted on 03/25/2007 6:48:44 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: alicewonders

I guess the same rules of engagement don't apply to our border guards



X ACT LEEEEEEEEEEE


77 posted on 03/25/2007 6:51:57 PM PDT by TomasUSMC ( FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM)
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To: farlander
Ahem. 'De-escalatory' ? Sooo... when they come to kill you in your own house will you try to 'de-escalate' by killing yourself ?

Yes.

It would seem to the Brits self defense is considered as great, if not greater, crime than murder.

I recall reading about an older gentleman who was arrested and charged under some foolish law for defending himself WITH A WALKING STICK from a pair who had broken into his home.

So yes, it would seem the British have a suicidal streak.
78 posted on 03/25/2007 6:54:20 PM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (Mohammedanism - Bringing you only the best of the 6th century for fourteen hundred years.)
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"I say, old chap, if you continue to capture our troops I'm afraid I'll have to speak to you rather sternly!"


79 posted on 03/25/2007 6:54:57 PM PDT by clintonh8r
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
LOLOL! That's a helluva point!
80 posted on 03/25/2007 6:56:23 PM PDT by HeartlandOfAmerica (Democrats: Best friends of America's WORST enemies!)
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To: ASA Vet

Uh huh. Lets see...they did have a 50 cal on the Pueblo against...four torpedo boats with multiple machine guns, a subchaser with a 57 mm cannon and two MIGs.

What would you suggest the Captain and crew of the Pueblo have done?


81 posted on 03/25/2007 7:01:55 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: Cicero
Bit before my time, but this isn't the Royal Navy that rescued the lads aboard the Altmark :^(
82 posted on 03/25/2007 7:04:45 PM PDT by investigateworld (Those Border Patrol guys will do more time than the worst Jap POW camp commander, thanks Bush!.....)
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To: HeartlandOfAmerica

Actually, I thought it was all too obvious.


83 posted on 03/25/2007 7:10:04 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (When I search out the massed wheeling circles of the stars, my feet no longer touch the earth)
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To: Cicero
The Brits were a little ahead of the US with radar, and we drew on their work.

Radar is one of those things where there were parallel developments in multiple countries. There is a brief article from the BBC here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/A591545

84 posted on 03/25/2007 7:11:04 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: casino66; All

TANKS for the ping,Cas,,,4 has a new map up on the thread
that mite help get a handle on where this happened,,,


85 posted on 03/25/2007 7:16:02 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: clintonh8r

Because political correctness has almost completely destroyed Britannia.


86 posted on 03/25/2007 7:18:16 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: cripplecreek

"The world screamed excessive force and the Israelis backed down"

And the Israelis still don't have the kidnapped troops back.


87 posted on 03/25/2007 7:20:31 PM PDT by Figment
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To: Weight of Glory; SJackson; yonif; Simcha7; American in Israel; Slings and Arrows; judicial meanz; ..
"The executive officer - second-in-command on USS Underwood, the frigate working in the British-controlled task force with HMS Cornwall - said: “The unique US Navy rules of engagement say we not only have a right to self-defence but also an obligation to self-defence. They [the British] had every right in my mind and every justification to defend themselves rather than allow themselves to be taken. Our reaction was, ‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”…

"Yesterday, the former First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Alan West, said British rules of engagement were “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting …"




Oh ... GEEEZ.

Somebody tell the Brits thanks much for all their help and support through the years, but it's time for them to go home.







AMERICA AT WAR
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88 posted on 03/25/2007 7:23:54 PM PDT by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: BIGLOOK; ASA Vet; RightWhale

‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”…


89 posted on 03/25/2007 7:30:16 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: farlander; blackie
British rules of engagement ...?

.

90 posted on 03/25/2007 7:32:40 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Salem
"Yesterday, the former First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Alan West, said British rules of engagement were “very much de-escalatory, because we don’t want wars starting …"

says it all IMO. Disgusting.

91 posted on 03/25/2007 7:35:17 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum Aussie.)
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To: Salem

Thanks for support through the years thanks for coming Salem


92 posted on 03/25/2007 7:36:38 PM PDT by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: rlmorel; BIGLOOK; Grampa Dave

I don't blame the Captain or crew. I blame the president of the US who called off the two F4C's that were enroute.


93 posted on 03/25/2007 7:36:45 PM PDT by ASA Vet (The WOT should have been over on 11/5/1979.)
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To: ansel12
Then what does this mean?

It means that Little Commander Horner is a blowhard

Our reaction was, ‘Why didn’t your guys defend themselves?’”…
I remember the same question being asked 20 years ago


94 posted on 03/25/2007 7:37:33 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Being a political pundit is so easy anyone can do it, And does)
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To: ASA Vet

By the way, if my response had overtones of irritation, it is because my dad did have a connection to CDR Bucher, and while the Captain of the USS Pueblo might not have been a top of the line Captain, he tried to do the best he could with what he had. Our military places value on the lives of its men...we generally don't require them to go down shooting in a hopeless cause, which is what that would have been.


95 posted on 03/25/2007 7:38:18 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: Salem

I am very disappointed with the British reaction about this terrorist act against them which is in fact a declaration of war. The British are acting in a very meek and weak fashion regarding this.


96 posted on 03/25/2007 7:39:01 PM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
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To: ASA Vet
Really ?

called off the two F4C's that were enroute...

.

97 posted on 03/25/2007 7:39:22 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: rlmorel; BIGLOOK; Grampa Dave
Yes, I detected the irritation. However it was misdirected.
I was on duty in a SCIF the day the Pueblo happened.

We were sure the US would do something.

I can't say much more without getting pissed off all over again.

98 posted on 03/25/2007 7:44:41 PM PDT by ASA Vet (The WOT should have been over on 11/5/1979.)
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To: Salem

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6491581.stm

What are the rules of engagement in this type of situation?

"The rules are very much de-escalatory, because we don't want wars starting. The reason we are there is to be a force for good, to make the whole area safe, to look after the Iraqi big oil platforms and also to stop smuggling and terrorism there.

So we try to downplay things. Rather then roaring into action and sinking everything in sight we try to step back and that, of course, is why our chaps were effectively able to be captured and taken away.

If we find this is going to be a standard practice we need to think very carefully about what rules of engagement we want and how we operate. One can't allow as a standard practice nations to capture a nation's servicemen. That is clearly wrong."

Puke!


99 posted on 03/25/2007 7:48:23 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum Aussie.)
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To: ASA Vet

Yeah. My dad, in addition to being a friend (I kind of wanted to say drinking buddy) of CDR Bucher, was also the Security and Communications Officer at the time when we lived in Yokosuka, Japan. My dad spent two weeks straight in the Comm Hut on the base without coming home.


100 posted on 03/25/2007 7:49:04 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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