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Go Tell The Spartans
Political Mavens ^ | 24 March 2007 | Andrew Klavan

Posted on 03/27/2007 12:57:21 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

By now, dozens of critics have weighed in on the massive box office success of 300, but not one I’ve read has figured out the reason for it. I have: it’s a terrific picture, one of the best in years. When I compare it to the movies that were nominated for Best Picture Oscars last year, it makes them seem to be exactly what they were: watered-down warm milk for liberal baby boomers who want to close the curtains on World War III, and snuggle down under their tie-dyed covers for a long winter’s nap full of tangerine dreams.

They are a weary failure of a generation. Like the British Edwardians before them, they could not live up to the achievements of their elders. So they invented a new set of rules, rules that sounded daring and dangerous and radical, but are in fact puerile, safe and anesthetic. Does western civilization require defense and sacrifice? Well, then ho, ho, ho, western civ has got to go. Does political freedom require responsibility and self-discipline? Well, then we’ll redefine freedom as individual licentiousness. Do other, lesser cultures want to destroy us? Well, then, we’ll join them in blaming America and avoid any unpleasantness. In short, the baby boomers’ leftist philosophy amounts to nothing more than an elaborate rationalization of their own cowardice and a way to dull the pain of the resultant self-disgust.....

(Excerpt) Read more at politicalmavens.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: clashofcivilizations; culture; movies
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Does political freedom require responsibility and self-discipline? Well, then we’ll redefine freedom as individual licentiousness.

That's exactly what they've done! And this could apply to the libertarians, too.

1 posted on 03/27/2007 12:57:22 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

300 was awesome!


2 posted on 03/27/2007 1:06:59 PM PDT by Red6 (Come and get it.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Yes, and the next bit, too: Their licentious behavior makes them feel guilty, but they can't admit it, so they take out their guilt on us.


3 posted on 03/27/2007 1:08:10 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
And this could apply to the libertarians, too.

Not the sensible ones.

4 posted on 03/27/2007 1:08:28 PM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Does political freedom require responsibility and self-discipline? Well, then we’ll redefine freedom as individual licentiousness.

That's exactly what they've done! And this could apply to the libertarians, too.


Well, I don't know about all that. I carry no water for the Libertarian Party, but I certainly don't think personal responsibility and self-discipline are antithetical to the libertarian philosophy. In fact, I would argue they're central to it. Socialized responsibility and state-imposed discipline are another story, however.
5 posted on 03/27/2007 1:15:44 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.)
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To: The Pack Knight

Many, if not most, of the philosophical libertarians I've known were not real big on consistent self-control. Maybe my personal experiences with them have coloured my overall perception of the philosophy, however.


6 posted on 03/27/2007 1:21:22 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Hey now, I loved Little Miss Sunshine! I wanted it to win Best Picture. I was just never that impressed with The Departed. Oh well.

That said, I loved 300. It was awesome. :-)


7 posted on 03/27/2007 1:22:57 PM PDT by EzOnTheEyez (I Loved Little Miss Sunshine!)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Does political freedom require responsibility and self-discipline? Well, then we’ll redefine freedom as individual licentiousness.

That's exactly what they've done! And this could apply to the libertarians, too.

Funny, none of the libertarians I know are libertine! One is a complete non-drinker, non-drug user, fellow who is a certified NRA gun instructor when not working his day job as an engineer. Another is a computer guy with a family and a wife of 20+ years.

I think the 'pot smoking libertarian' is a myth, at least in my experience.

8 posted on 03/27/2007 1:26:02 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

OK, I'll be a parrot:

300 was awesome. All the way through I kept thinking: "I can see why the libs and the Iranians hate this movie."

But it will never get a whiff of the Oscars; it fails far too many of the PC litmus tests mandatory for Oscar consideration.


9 posted on 03/27/2007 1:27:33 PM PDT by henkster (When democrats talk of "the rich," they are referring to anyone with a private sector job.)
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To: Jack Black

You mean I have to stop referring to the Libertarians as the "Pot and Porn Party"? ;)


10 posted on 03/27/2007 1:29:31 PM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: EzOnTheEyez
The Departed was a good 3/4 of a movie, but I thought the ending was too contrived - it seemed mostly a vehicle to blow a bunch of people away on-screen and was a complete deviation from what was a pretty good plot up to then.
11 posted on 03/27/2007 1:30:29 PM PDT by RonF
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To: henkster

It is a comic book writ large.


12 posted on 03/27/2007 1:33:03 PM PDT by lugsoul (Livin' in fear is just another way of dying before your time. - Mike Cooley)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

***They are a weary failure of a generation.***

They are the "Better Red than dead" and "Peace at any price" generation.


13 posted on 03/27/2007 1:33:30 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Oberon

Jumbo shrimp, military intelligence, sensible Libertarians (party members, that is).

LOL


14 posted on 03/27/2007 1:34:03 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.)
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To: Oberon; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Libertarians are not licentious because they believe in freedom. We just believe is staying out of other people's business. More importantly, we believe in keeping government out of people's pockets and bedrooms.
15 posted on 03/27/2007 1:40:26 PM PDT by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
This Libertarian is a non-smoker, non-drinker, non-drug-user, husband and father. I just happen to think that government tends to make a mess of most things it tries to do outside of its core function of providing a safe environment where people can live, work, and raise a family

Regarding 300, I saw it twice (regular and then IMAX), and the major audience for it seems to be guys having a "guys night out). It's a classic tale that Hollywood liberals mostly disdain: men defending what's important to them against overwhelming odds

16 posted on 03/27/2007 1:41:05 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Never try to teach a pig to sing -- it wastes your time and it annoys the pig)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
And this could apply to the libertarians, too.

Not wanting the government to dictate what we do with our own bodies does not equate to licentiousness. It has to do with who owns us -- the government or us.

It is a shallow and thoughtless person who mistakes the message of libertarianism for libertinism.

17 posted on 03/27/2007 1:41:21 PM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Jack Black
I think the 'pot smoking libertarian' is a myth, at least in my experience.

You obviously haven't been on a college campus in a while. :-)

Actually, it's probably not fair to count most college libertarians as true "libertarians".

18 posted on 03/27/2007 1:43:10 PM PDT by The Blitherer (What the devil is keeping the Yanks? Duncan Hunter for President '08!)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
So they invented a new set of rules, rules that sounded daring and dangerous and radical, but are in fact puerile, safe and anesthetic.

Rules...like gun control. Ban guns and the nasty guns go away. Well, no. Those safe and anesthetic gun-free zones are a tremendrous draw for armed crazies. (The examples are legion.)

Similarly, a spirtually disarmed bunch of tangerine dreamers are in for many rude awakenings. Our modern day Persians want us dead to fulfill their messianic prophesies. Nothing will disuade them except death.

19 posted on 03/27/2007 1:45:02 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: henkster
But it will never get a whiff of the Oscars; it fails far too many of the PC litmus tests mandatory for Oscar consideration

Let me list a few:

  1. Disdainfully referring to Athenians as "boy lovers" (and by implication heaping disdain on the swishy politician)
  2. Having a swishy politician be a treasonous, lying, two-faced villain
  3. Having the heros being manly, hetero, European males
  4. Having the enemy being non-White, non-Europeans, who get their butts kicked even though they vastly outnumber the good guys
  5. Having the head bad guy being a body-pierced butch queen
  6. Having a "differently abled" character being as deformed on the inside as he was on the outside
I could go on...
20 posted on 03/27/2007 1:49:40 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Never try to teach a pig to sing -- it wastes your time and it annoys the pig)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
I have: it’s a terrific picture, one of the best in years.

Meh. I thought it was OK, but not as good as some other epic movies I've seen. All things given, I'd rather spend an evening watching Gladiator than 300.

When I compare it to the movies that were nominated for Best Picture Oscars last year, it makes them seem to be exactly what they were: watered-down warm milk for liberal baby boomers who want to close the curtains on World War III, and snuggle down under their tie-dyed covers for a long winter’s nap full of tangerine dreams.

Oh yeah, The Departed was a "watered-down warm milk" kind of movie. Whatever.

21 posted on 03/27/2007 1:50:20 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
The film understands that we celebrate heroes because we dine on the fruits of their sacrifice. The greatest of these fruits is liberty, more precious than life itself.

And when we glorify the heroes who defend our liberty with their lives, it reminds us too that we must live in responsibility to them, not only in our actions but in our philosophies as well.

Every day that we preserve and cherish our freedom is a monument to them, a sign that they are not forgotten. They are never forgotten.

22 posted on 03/27/2007 1:50:45 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Like the British Edwardians before them, they could not live up to the achievements of their elders. So they invented a new set of rules, rules that sounded daring and dangerous and radical, but are in fact puerile, safe and anesthetic. Does western civilization require defense and sacrifice? Well, then ho, ho, ho, western civ has got to go. Does political freedom require responsibility and self-discipline? Well, then we’ll redefine freedom as individual licentiousness. Do other, lesser cultures want to destroy us? Well, then, we’ll join them in blaming America and avoid any unpleasantness.

I'm not familiar with this author, but this is a rather good and terse summation of the culture.

23 posted on 03/27/2007 1:54:05 PM PDT by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: RonF
The Departed was a good 3/4 of a movie, but I thought the ending was too contrived - it seemed mostly a vehicle to blow a bunch of people away on-screen and was a complete deviation from what was a pretty good plot up to then.

The only thing that I thought was contrived was the second dirty cop, that seemed like something he tacked on to help propel the ending along. Besides that, it was Scorsese's best film since Goodfellas.

24 posted on 03/27/2007 1:57:29 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: lugsoul
"It is a comic book writ large."

While I've seen that, and many similar words written to disparage the movie, I think it's worth noting that widespread literacy in western civilization is a relatively recent development, and until post-Gutenberg era, our culture's mythology, legends and ideals were communicated through didactic imagery in icons, stained glass, statuary, painting and manuscripts illustrated not only to augment the written word but to instruct those incapable of reading them. Comic books (or 'graphic novels' if you prefer) are heirs to this tradition, and in many ways, I think 300 brings the transmission of our cultural legends around full circle...a real event mythologized, and communicated through the latest incarnation of the original means of transmitting such.

25 posted on 03/27/2007 2:07:47 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack
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To: Zeroisanumber

That second dirty cop, and the changes that his presence brought on, are exactly what I was thinking of.


26 posted on 03/27/2007 2:11:50 PM PDT by RonF
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Quite correct!!!!!!!!I was dismayed as the Demoslime pulled the money plug on Vietnam and now I am physically sickened at the blatant, filthy, whining, hatred of George Bush driven, whimp,nutless Damnocrats ploy of telegraphing the U.S. military plans to the enemy by tying a with-drawl date to the funding which is vital to our brave troops very existence. By God, damn their souls because the task of righting their mistake may be extremely difficult by the time we are hit by one of Iran's nuke armed missiles. Hell, the U.S. will have to pull the EU's bacon out the fire again to the tune of many more fine young soldier's lives and so much more of our treasure. If the Liberals are so blind to the consequences of their actions I say, IT IS TIME TO GIVE THEM SOME OCULAR ADJUSTMENTS!!!!!
27 posted on 03/27/2007 2:12:43 PM PDT by ScareyFast63
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To: SauronOfMordor
"I could go on..."

I also thought there was an interesting portrayal of sexuality in the movie...The scene between Leonidas and Queen Gorgo was portrayed in a soft, sensuous way that lionized the wholesome love between committed spouses.

The seduction of Ephialtes at Xerxes' encampment was all about sex and lust being used to lure and entrap one into the ways of evil.

28 posted on 03/27/2007 2:15:41 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here, obedient to their laws, we lie!"

29 posted on 03/27/2007 2:32:35 PM PDT by Old Sarge (+ /_\)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

The movie is based off a comic book writer and the film is fiction not based on reality. Reality is the Persians crushed the Spartans and went on to burn Athens.

The Spartans were mostly homosexuals
They were authoritarian that is why they fought with and did not respect the Athenians
They did not believe in democracy or the Western way of life as claimed
They are not exactly the models of modern society or the advents of modern democracy




30 posted on 03/27/2007 2:42:54 PM PDT by freedom44
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To: GeorgefromGeorgia
Libertarians are not licentious because they believe in freedom. We just believe is staying out of other people's business. More importantly, we believe in keeping government out of people's pockets and bedrooms.

Hey, I'm with you. I'm not a party member, but I tend to vote for the Libertarian candidate because it's the closest thing I can find to someone who will actually pursue the Republican Party platform.

31 posted on 03/27/2007 2:50:34 PM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Not to mention epic Greek plays.


32 posted on 03/27/2007 3:37:33 PM PDT by Excellence (Vote Dhimmocrat; Submit for Peace! (Bacon bits make great confetti.))
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

It is a real shame that we have used the political freedoms, fought for by past generations, to make bad choices


33 posted on 03/27/2007 4:28:18 PM PDT by tom paine 2
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Many, if not most, of the philosophical libertarians I've known were not real big on consistent self-control. Maybe my personal experiences with them have coloured my overall perception of the philosophy, however.

I would say that the difference between a libertarian and a liberal is that while both believe one should be at liberty to do what one pleases as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of another, a liberal also believes one should be insulated by the state from the consequences of irresponsible behavior, while a libertarian believes that the individual is responsible for the consequences of his own actions.

I myself have known self-described "libertarians" whose devotion to freedom stops short of freedom from the "social safety net". These are actually liberals, not libertarians. It should go without saying that liberty requires responsibility, because true liberty includes the freedom to fail as well as the freedom to succeed. Those with poor self-control who make poor decisions will be punished by those decisions, and need not be punished by the state.

For the record, I no longer describe myself as a libertarian, not only because the philosophy has been hijacked by some of the very people you describe, but also because it is an unnecessary neologism for the very principles our republic was founded upon.
34 posted on 03/27/2007 7:15:45 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.)
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To: freedom44
The movie is based off a comic book writer and the film is fiction not based on reality. Reality is the Persians crushed the Spartans and went on to burn Athens.

The Persians then went on to be defeated by the Spartans and their allies, under the command of Leonidas' nephew Pausanias, at Plataea. This was the battle depicted at the end of the movie. None of this is inconsistent with what happened in the movie.

The Spartans were mostly homosexuals

The Spartans practiced institutionalized homoeroticism, specifically pederasty, as did virtually all Greeks and many other Mediterranean cultures of the period. Homosexuality is a preference for same-sex intercourse to the exclusion of heterosexual intercourse. If they were mostly homosexuals, there wouldn't have been too many of them around by the 5th century BC, as few if any would have been breeding.

They were authoritarian that is why they fought with and did not respect the Athenians

The Athenians were authoritarian as well to their "allies" in the Delian League, and also kept slaves.

They did not believe in democracy or the Western way of life as claimed

Our Founding Fathers didn't believe in democracy, either. This is why we have a constitutional republic. The Spartans also had a constitutional government. Sparta's kings were subject to the laws of Lycurgus just as the other Spartans were. Sparta's kings did not hold absolute power, either.

They are not exactly the models of modern society or the advents of modern democracy

Neither were the Athenians or the Romans, or anyone else from that time. Strictly speaking, neither were many of our own Founding Fathers. That doesn't mean we don't respect what the Founding Fathers, the Romans, the Athenians, or even the Spartans did accomplish.
35 posted on 03/27/2007 7:41:40 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.)
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To: freedom44
The Spartans were mostly homosexuals
They were authoritarian that is why they fought with and did not respect the Athenians
They did not believe in democracy or the Western way of life as claimed
They are not exactly the models of modern society or the advents of modern democracy

They also practiced eugenics in an effort to breed a race of super warriors. In short, they were proto-Nazis.

Still, there is something about a last stand against overwhelming odds that still fires the imagination.

36 posted on 03/28/2007 3:41:47 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: freedom44; Junior

The point of the movie was not that we should emulate Spartan society or politics. There were many unattractive things about them.

However, the Spartans did have the courage to stand up against overwhelming odds to protect their society from an aggressive ME society that wished to enslave them. They lost that battle, but subsequent battles were won and the Spartan/Greek world was saved. That was the message, and I think that's what most people got from it.


37 posted on 03/28/2007 3:50:30 AM PDT by livius
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To: Old Sarge
"Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here, obedient to their laws, we lie!"

"Free though they are, they are not entirely free - for law is their master, whom they fear far more than your men fear you. Whatever their law commands, that they do; and it commands them always the same: they are not allowed to flee in battle from any foe, however great the numbers, but rather they are to stay in their ranks and there conquer or perish." - Herodotus

38 posted on 03/28/2007 6:14:52 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

39 posted on 03/28/2007 6:20:36 AM PDT by bagadonutz (The road goes on forever and the party never ends! - J E Keene)
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To: The Pack Knight
For the record, I no longer describe myself as a libertarian, not only because the philosophy has been hijacked by some of the very people you describe, but also because it is an unnecessary neologism for the very principles our republic was founded upon.

I tend to come down very hard on libertarians, but this is probably a case of rivalry between cousins, for I used to be a libertarian, but have since abandoned the position philosophically. I describe myself as "Neo-Ciceronian", and land somewhere at the crossroads between classical republicanism and classical liberalism. I left libertarianism because I felt that libertarians themselves often did not think through the logical consequences of many positions that they espouse, and in the name of "liberty", would actually create an environment where the individual could be just as tyrannous to other individuals as the government is. The whole "private roads" position was what formally did it for me.

I'm big on Lockean-style commonwealth ideology. Government is needed, but it is government which acts as a result of being instituted by a body of individuals, the commonwealth, for the purpose of providing mutual protection, from each other as much as from outside agents. The purpose of government is to provide a stable and peaceful mode of existence (i.e. eliminate the "state of nature") which will allow each individual to then pursue their natural liberties to life and property, without the assault on their liberties that other individuals in a "fre-for-all" natural state would present.

Hence, the role of government should be arbitrative, not regulatory.

40 posted on 03/28/2007 6:24:08 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
They are the "Better Red than dead" and "Peace at any price" generation.

I'm really sick of the Boomer bashing.

Tens of millions of us VOLUNTERED to serve in the military. Who the hell do you think manned the armed forces from Vietnam to the end of the Cold War?

In case many of you haven't noticed the "Greatest Generation" had plenty of card carrying Stalinists, Progressives, and Peaceniks to mobilize in the 30's, 40's, and 50's. And remember the Second World War was led and generaled by a generation born in the 18 90's and 1900's. EVERY generation has it's Hero's and it's Zero's.
41 posted on 03/28/2007 6:28:07 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: freedom44
The movie is based off a comic book writer and the film is fiction not based on reality. Reality is the Persians crushed the Spartans and went on to burn Athens.

Actually, the events depicted in the movie are more or less accurate, from what we can gather from the ancient historical sources. The Persians only crushed the Spartans because of Ephialtes' betrayal, and the the burning of Athens is not within the timeframe of the movie, coming later after the Persians had pressed further into Greece.

The Spartans were mostly homosexuals

Correction - the Spartans (as with most other Greeks), were homoerotic. They did not practice a "homosexual lifestyle" in the sense that us moderns think of it. Pederasty was common in ancient Greece. NAMBLA would, in many ways, have been quite at home in Athens. The Thebans had an elite band of warriors made up entirely of pairs of male lovers. It was a vice that afflicted Greek society generally.

They were authoritarian that is why they fought with and did not respect the Athenians

MOST Greek city-states at the time were authoritarian, either monarchies or under the various tyrants. Even Athens lived under Peisestratus for a while. The Athenians themselves, even under the democracy, still managed to execute Socrates, oppress their "allies" in the Delian league, even razing city-states that wouldn't cooperate with them, and kept a full quarter of their population as slaves.

They did not believe in democracy or the Western way of life as claimed

Well, "democracy" is not the end all and be all of the Western way of life. Indeed, most of Western history has NOT been characterised by a great love of democracy. Even Athenian democracy was not what we think of by the term today.

They are not exactly the models of modern society or the advents of modern democracy

And nobody has said they were. The Spartans had a LOT of serious problems with their societal ethos, not the least of which was that they were themselves an imperial state which had conquered Messenia during the Archaic period and kept the Messenians as helots - serfs tied to land and kept as third-class citizens. Young Spartan men, before their full entry into the Spartan military aristocratic society, would serve a couple of years as "secret policemen", spying on the helots for any signs of dissent, and would more or less summarily execute any thought to be subversive. So yes, Sparta definitely had its problems, and even in Classical Greece, it was viewed as a backward and regressive state.

But the point of the movie, and why we should yet be glad for the sacrifice of the Spartans (and Thebans, and Thespiaens) at Thermopylae is that they really did, historically speaking, give the rest of Greece time to get it together to defend the cradle of our civilisation from the Persians. If they hadn't done so, our whole Western civilisation might well have been strangled in the crib. Leonidas gave Themistocles time to win at Salamis, and this battle, along with Plataea, Marathon, and Salamis, were instrumental in altering the entire course of world history.

42 posted on 03/28/2007 6:38:57 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
The Republican party is failing because it is a copycat of the Democrats.

That's why this baby boomer is a proud libertarian.

Libertarians will pick up the pieces after the two group-think parties have run this country into the ground, and are run out of town.


BUMP

43 posted on 03/28/2007 6:54:03 AM PDT by capitalist229 (Get Democrats out of our pockets and Republicans out of our bedrooms.)
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To: capitalist229
The Republican party is failing because it is a copycat of the Democrats.

No, the Republicans are failing because the Republican "leadership" is a copycat of the Democrats.

Unfortunately, on the social issues that count, the Libertarians are a copycat of the Democrats, which is why the Libertarians have gotten about zero traction in the last thirty years.

44 posted on 03/28/2007 7:02:47 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
That's very close to my own philosophy, which is why I at times describe myself as a "small r" republican (and once, bizarrely considering your comment, a "neo-Catonian".. Cicero talked too much). I'm also a "big R" Republican, but that only describes party affiliation.

The libertarian movement itself is made up of both anarcho-capitalists, who advocate a free-market system with no government (which I believe is impossible to sustain in the long run), and those who advocate a strict, limited constitutional government which is only involved in protecting liberty and enforcing contracts. My view of libertarianism is that it's an idealistic philosophy that needs to be tempered with a healthy dose of realism in order to be an effective governing philosophy.

Generally speaking, I default to the libertarian position on most issues unless I'm convinced that government intervention is needed in order to preserve liberty in society as a whole and in the long run. This, of course, causes me to take positions that would cause many card-carrying Libertarians to label me a "statist", though, to me, it just means I'm reasonable.
45 posted on 03/28/2007 8:19:09 AM PDT by The Pack Knight (A fine is a tax on doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.)
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To: The Pack Knight

Yes, that all sounds about where I'm at, too.


46 posted on 03/28/2007 10:12:04 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A sense of humour is a sign of intelligence. Which is why liberals are so humourless.)
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To: Kozak

***I'm really sick of the Boomer bashing. ***

I AM THE BOOMER GENERATION! I can say what I want about them, yet I have not been tainted by the 1960's radicalism.


47 posted on 03/28/2007 1:08:35 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Kozak
I also served 3.75 years in the military, 1966-1969, honorable discharge, whereas the better red than dead, peace at any price crowd were taking college deferments.
48 posted on 03/28/2007 1:12:06 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
the Libertarians are a copycat of the Democrats

Libertarians are the future of this great country because baby boomers are about to retire and govt spending must be brought under control. Republicans are now big spenders and they have lost my vote.

The recent reality is that 70% of Americans no longer support the far right (busybody & hawk) wings of the Republican party as reflected by the 30% popularity of the President. Since I believe in a strong defense I am not part of that 30%. But Congressional Republicans are running from him just look at the recent elections and the anti-war bill just passed.

In many ways this is 1970s revisited.


BUMP

49 posted on 03/29/2007 2:49:04 AM PDT by capitalist229 (Get Democrats out of our pockets and Republicans out of our bedrooms.)
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To: capitalist229
Libertarians are the future of this great country because baby boomers are about to retire and govt spending must be brought under control. Republicans are now big spenders and they have lost my vote.

Libertarians are the future of America? Please. Tell me, if the Republicans ever stop trying to be America's sugar daddy, will they get your vote back? If not, then I'd say their big spending wasn't the reason you stopped voting for them in the first place.

The recent reality is that 70% of Americans no longer support the far right (busybody & hawk) wings of the Republican party as reflected by the 30% popularity of the President. Since I believe in a strong defense I am not part of that 30%. But Congressional Republicans are running from him just look at the recent elections and the anti-war bill just passed.

This is a somewhat broad statement that seems to try to distill about ten dozen different motivations people might have for disapproving of the President's job performance into one (the "busybody and hawk" wing of the party). I mean, when polled, *I* disapproved of Bush's performance - because I'm unhappy with his spending and with his non-performance on the illegal immigration issue, among other things. To point to his 35% (closer to reality, like it really matters) approval rating, and read a libertarian impulse into it is simply quixotic on your part.

The fact of the matter is that, on philosophical matters, the majority of Americans are with the GOP. If the GOP leadership would ever step up to the plate, and bring its practice back into line with its theory, then it'd be the Reagan years all over again. And I hate to tell the libertarians this, but that includes the social issues as well. I know that libertarians have this fantasy that a vast majority of Americans really are cool with abortion on demand and gay marriage, and that these only exist as viable political issues because the evil, busy-body, nanny-state Religious Right keeps spending their tithe money on newspaper advertisements, but facts simply don't bear this out. Abortion is a winning issue for the GOP - polling for the last decade shows that a small-but-consistent majority of Americans take at least a soft pro-life stance, and much larger majorities oppose federal funding of abortion (which, to their credit, so do most libertarians), partial birth abortion, and support numerous restrictions on abortion such as parental notification laws. As for gay marriage (which is *not* a "bedroom issue", by the way), even in liberal states like Oregon, the public opposes it by at least 60%. Winning issues for the GOP, and also opposition to both abortion and gay marriage have the added advantage of simply being the right stances to take.

In many ways this is 1970s revisited. And look what happened in the 1970s. Even with the Damoclean swords of Vietnam and Watergate hanging over the proto-RINO Ford, he almost beat Carter (pop. vote was 50.1% to 48.0%, EV 297-240), and that was when the South was still solidly Democratic (VA and OK were the only Southern states to go for Ford). When the GOP got it together and presented a true conservative candidate, they thrashed Carter. Hopefully, the GOP will present such a candidate in 2008, I believe Fred Thompson to be the best choice in this regard, and repeat their performance in 1980.

50 posted on 03/29/2007 5:53:59 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (A member of the Frederalist Party)
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