If we want to save the planet, we need a five-year freeze on biofuels

Guardian UK ^ | 3/27/2007` | George Monbiot

[JamesP81]

That's an interesting statement. Is that a guess, or do you have a source? If it's true, I'd like to file that one away for future use.

The source is Agriculture planting data our company gets from our floor trader at the Chicago Board of Trade. Unfortunately, I can't post that data to the internet because none of you folks paid for it, and I'd get into some serious trouble over it.

[GunRunner]

Yes, hydrogen powered cars are readily available and a solar powered economy is just around the corner, while biodiesel is a pipe dream. Ignorance indeed.

[P-40]

but I do remember the hype

I do remember the hype...and I remember listening to the drone of the crew boats heading out into the Gulf to service the rigs. All fell victim to the 'cheap' gas.

[from occupied ga]

We go thru about a gallon a month...........

And how much motor fuel do you use in the same time period?

[from occupied ga]

Yes, hydrogen powered cars are readily available

Would you be so kind as to show me where I mentioned hydrogen poered or solar cars? I can't seem to recall in fact I think you were the one who first mentioned them.

[Mr. Lucky]

Your B.S. meter should be ringing on this one.

There are, give or take, 450 million acres of crop land (as opposed to pasture, woodland, etc.) in the United States. At 150 bushels per acre, planting all this land to corn would produce 189 billion gallons of ethanol. While this isn't going to happen, it's not because of a lack of land. Should the efficiency of ethanol production continue to advance, the land is available to produce the feedstocks.

[mmichaels1970]

Corn is a comparatively lousy dairy feed

I'm not disputing you, I don't know much about farming and only have my opinion. The few dairy farms we have around here in Northeast Ohio always seem to have silos full of corn.

milkproduction.com has some common feed ingredients and there are a lot of different corn variations there.

Corn Grain (Cornmeal, Ground Corn) – Corn is one of the most common sources of energy and starch for the dairy cow.

[GunRunner]

Did you even read the article that you posted? The whole conclusion of the Berkley scientist was that biofuels helped corporations and harmed the environment...

He says the country should instead focus its efforts on producing electrical energy from photovoltaic cells, wind power and burning biomass and producing fuel from hydrogen conversion.

He also dismissed biodiesel entirely SOLELY based the power consumption of soybean and sunflower plants. Am I supposed to take his conclusions seriously?

[JamesP81]

The same article said farmers were planting 5 million less acres in soy beans.

The data we're getting from the professionals says it's more than 5 million.

[JamesP81]

Yes, hydrogen powered cars are readily available and a solar powered economy is just around the corner, while biodiesel is a pipe dream. Ignorance indeed.

Actually, both are pipe dreams, but a nuclear powered economy is at least possible and feasible under the laws of physics.

[Red Badger]

Hundreds, but Dodge Rams don't get the greatest of mileage.......

[from occupied ga]

Did you even read the article that you posted?

Of course; however, I didn't agree with his "solution," As you probably don't recall this came from your lack of understanding of the energy balances in the biofuel boondoggle. I was using this just to show that biofuels are a fraud from the energy balance standpoint. If you want my solution to foreign energy dependence try Fischer Tropsch fuel from coal.

Am I supposed to take his conclusions seriously

Frankly I don't give a rat's azz what you think about his conclusion since it was only the energy balance part that I was referring to.

[from occupied ga]

Hundreds, but Dodge Rams don't get the greatest of mileage.......

Well recycled cooking oil won't work for you and it won't work for me. I wonder if there is anyone who it would work for other than a Macdonald's.

Just letting the market decide WITHOUT government meddling would be the best fix I can think of.

[thackney]

would produce 189 billion gallons of ethanol

We used 141.5 billion gallons of gasoline last year. With its lower energy content it would take about 184 billion gallons of ethanol. But you are not going to 150 bushels per acre on the land outside the corn belt. In some areas not suited for corn it is going to get a LOT less.

Of course we would have no food, no room for growth and a drought would strangle our entire economy. Now where do we get the 40 billion gallons of diesel and 25 billion gallons of Jet fuel? Growing fuel as a crop is only going to be a small percentage of our fuel needs.

[GunRunner]

Actually, both are pipe dreams, but a nuclear powered economy is at least possible and feasible under the laws of physics.

http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=TX

Here's a list of pumps in my area that carry it. Honda is introducing a diesel sedan in 2009, and diesel cars that are faster and more efficient are already all over Europe.

Keep me posted on that hydrogen economy though.

[Red Badger]

The market is deciding. Already the diesels are more than 50% of sales of new cars in Europe and nearly that in Asia. As we slowly convert to diesel fuel in the US market.............

[JamesP81]

Keep me posted on that hydrogen economy though.

Who said anything about hydrogen? I was talking about nuclear...

I've said it several times, I'll say it again: there is not enough suitable farm acreage to grow bio diesel crops in sufficient amounts to meet our fuel needs. Not now, not ever. The potential energy of the system is just too low. And, furthermore, even if the potential energy of the system was high enough, that high fuel yield crop would quickly deplete the soil. You can over plant and over cultivate your land.

[Stashiu]

Biofuels can be a good partial solution. Remember, the bio-fuels process produced food AND fuel.

[P-40]

there is not enough suitable farm acreage to grow bio diesel crops in sufficient amounts to meet our fuel needs.

I have yet to hear any elected official familiar with the industry make the claim that such a thing is even contemplated.

[from occupied ga]

The market is distorted by the ethanol mandate and being forced to go with a political solution rather than a market solution.