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Report: Tuskegee Airmen lost 25 bombers
AP - Yahoo ^ | April 1, 2007

Posted on 04/01/2007 11:40:19 AM PDT by EveningStar

At least 25 bombers being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen over Europe during World War II were shot down by enemy aircraft, according to a new Air Force report.

The report contradicts the legend that the famed black aviators never lost a plane to fire from enemy aircraft...

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: aviation; blackhistory; history; p38; p40; p47; p51; tuskegeeairmen; ww2; wwii
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1 posted on 04/01/2007 11:40:20 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Howlin; onyx; Clemenza; Petronski; GummyIII; SevenofNine; veronica; Xenalyte; CheneyChick; ...

Misc ping list


2 posted on 04/01/2007 11:41:54 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: EveningStar

Probably there were many pilots that did not fly those missions where a bomber was lost and did not lose bombers on their own missions and the story started that way.


3 posted on 04/01/2007 11:43:36 AM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: EveningStar
But historian William Holton said the discovery of lost bombers doesn't tarnish the unit's record.

Ditto.

4 posted on 04/01/2007 11:43:48 AM PDT by Condor 63
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To: Condor 63

Absolutely.


5 posted on 04/01/2007 11:44:33 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: EveningStar

Still a damn good record.


6 posted on 04/01/2007 11:45:59 AM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Aeronaut; indcons

ping


7 posted on 04/01/2007 11:46:23 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: EveningStar

They were fighting way more than just the Nazis. American heroes, each and every one.


8 posted on 04/01/2007 11:46:35 AM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: EveningStar

This report reflects poorly on writers of the last 60 years rather than on the the airmen themselves.


9 posted on 04/01/2007 11:47:04 AM PDT by concentric circles
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To: EveningStar

Good Grief...

Let's continue to rewrite history.

I bet they were all gay too -

GAAH

Sigh


10 posted on 04/01/2007 11:48:03 AM PDT by agent_delta
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To: EveningStar

I always found this hard to believe. Although it was my understanding that by the time they entered the ETO, most of the Luftwaffe was already decimated and barely able to offer any resistance. The questions is, what took out those 20 bombers?


11 posted on 04/01/2007 11:48:59 AM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: EveningStar
Imagine that. Thanx for the ping.


12 posted on 04/01/2007 11:49:05 AM PDT by rdb3 (SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0 (Get well Snowman!))
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To: concentric circles

I agree. They were still heroes.


13 posted on 04/01/2007 11:49:21 AM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Condor 63

"But historian William Holton said the discovery of lost bombers doesn't tarnish the unit's record."

No, but it certainly tarnishes the members of this unit WHO KNEW THE TRUTH and allowed the false accolades to continue for all these years.


14 posted on 04/01/2007 11:51:19 AM PDT by Vn_survivor_67-68
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To: EveningStar

That is not so suprising. My father was a bomber crewmember both in the ETO and PTO. His opinion was that no matter how good the escort pilots were and the Tuskegee pilots were good there were always going to be losses. There would either be a lot more enemy fighters than the escorts could handle and some of those would hit a mark or the ground flak which was heavy on the way to and over high-value targets would take a few.

Even with the new information they were an outstanding unit with great pilots.


15 posted on 04/01/2007 11:52:15 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: concentric circles
This report reflects poorly on writers of the last 60 years rather than on the the airmen themselves.

Not in the greater scheme of things. At the time, had any deaths been reported with these men held responsible, there was enough pressure at the time to end the Tuskegee program, and keep Blacks from becoming military pilots.

There was actually a time in History, when the media cooperated with the Military to achieve its goals.

The only problem I have with it, is that nobody in their right mind would believe such a record anyway, but it is still quoted as fact whenever the Airmen are mentioned. Time to put it to bed, but with understanding of why the myth was created. Black pilots might even have been lynched in the states for allowing a White airman to die in combat.

16 posted on 04/01/2007 11:52:53 AM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: EveningStar
I'm curious as to what act[s] of heroism the aviator did that recently gave him the Congressional Medal of Honor. He was in combat, true, but what else?
Are we going to give out CMHs now because it's politically correct?
17 posted on 04/01/2007 11:53:03 AM PDT by curmudgeonII (Dum spiro spero.)
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To: EveningStar

Doesn't make a bit of difference. I love to hear these guys talk. They are true heroes and gentlemen. They are classy as can be.


18 posted on 04/01/2007 11:54:32 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: All
A lot of crazy stuff gets claimed during war that won't pass the smell test under close scrutiny esp. when you have chaotic situations, eye witness reports that contradict one another and War Department press releases more intended to stir up or maintain support for the effort back home and less intended to be historical accounts.

My father was an ex-Marine that worshiped at the shrine of Pappy Boyington and even he would admit that a lot of the claims regarding Ole Pap were dubious at best including his kills. There was considerable controversy regarding how many kills Pappy had with the Flying Tigers. First the official Tigers account and Pappy's account never added up, and second regarding if AVG kills should have been added to his Marine kills.

Regardless, Boyington was obviously one of the best Americans in the air during WWII.

19 posted on 04/01/2007 11:56:28 AM PDT by Condor 63
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To: EveningStar

Frankly I never believed that the Tuskegee airmen never lost a bomber they were escorting to enemy aircraft. The chances of that happening, considering the number of missions they participated in leaves anyone that has studied, or read up on WWII history skeptical. War stories have a way of getting embellished as time goes on ...


20 posted on 04/01/2007 11:57:14 AM PDT by BluH2o
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To: RJS1950

"Even with the new information they were an outstanding unit with great pilots."

The tragedy is that they weren't used sooner in the war. They were extremely well-trained abd would have given the Luftwaffe a tough time when our bomber crews really needed them.


21 posted on 04/01/2007 11:57:23 AM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: EveningStar; Tijeras_Slim; FireTrack; Pukin Dog; citabria; B Knotts; kilowhskey; cyphergirl; ...

22 posted on 04/01/2007 11:58:04 AM PDT by Aeronaut (Hebrews 13:4)
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To: EveningStar

And it was silly to think otherwise. No fighter pilots can 100% protect bombers, any more than a condom can guarantee against pregnancy. It doesn't diminish what they did accomplish.


23 posted on 04/01/2007 11:59:35 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of News)
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To: curmudgeonII
I'm curious as to what act[s] of heroism the aviator did that recently gave him the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Please re-read the article, a little closer this time.

24 posted on 04/01/2007 12:00:14 PM PDT by Aeronaut (Hebrews 13:4)
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To: Condor 63
Boyington was obviously one of the best Americans in the air during WWII.

That's true ... but many that knew him thaught he was a first class assh***.

25 posted on 04/01/2007 12:02:17 PM PDT by BluH2o
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To: Arkinsaw

"I love to hear these guys talk. They are true heroes and gentlemen. They are classy as can be."

They are also role models for black teens in the inner cities and elsewhere. It's a damn shame that people like Jesse Jackson and Barry Bonds are considered role models.

I met one of these guys (forgive me for not remembering his name)at a mall book signing. I felt honored to speak with him and he spoke with me just like my granfather would have. A true gentlemen, I need to get that book out of a box back out on my shelf and re read it(recently moved).

Related Topic on the PC media. Pat Tillman's death and coverup until after his funeral - compare and contrast. So they knew that 25 bombers were shot down but now the news breaks AFTER the Gold Medal Ceremony. Hmm kettle meet Mr. Black.


26 posted on 04/01/2007 12:03:22 PM PDT by rbmillerjr ("Message to radical jihadis...come to my hood, it's understood ------ it's open season" Stuck Mojo)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68

sadly I think it does tarnish the image because obviously this was not a one person mistake. These men were complicit in a "symbolism over substance" pr stunt. The lie is the stunt.

They need to come clean fast, say mea culpa and now publish the record better. How many books are now wrong?

How many black history month propaganda films are now wrong but are NEVER going to be corrected in order to protect image over substance? Answer NONE.

They still are to be admired but just not for the lie.


27 posted on 04/01/2007 12:04:16 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: BluH2o
That's true ... but many that knew him thaught he was a first class assh***.

That is true. It is true because like most of us on many occasions he was an assh***.

28 posted on 04/01/2007 12:06:08 PM PDT by Condor 63
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To: EveningStar
What's your point?

White squadrons lost plenty of bombers. 60,000 Americans died in the air war over Germany.

Comparisons of this sort are invidious, gratuitous and serve no purpose but to stir up animosities.

29 posted on 04/01/2007 12:08:03 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets ("We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.)
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To: agent_delta

There is a difference in rewriting history and correcting it.


30 posted on 04/01/2007 12:09:30 PM PDT by COEXERJ145 (Bush Derangement Syndrome Has Reached Pandemic Levels on Free Republic.)
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To: curmudgeonII
You may be referring to then Major Bruce Crandall, Medal Of Honor recipient, US Army helicopter pilot.

Citation

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:

Major Bruce P. Crandall distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism as a Flight Commander in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company A, 229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile). On 14 November 1965, his flight of sixteen helicopters was lifting troops for a search and destroy mission from Plei Me, Vietnam, to Landing Zone X-Ray in the la Drang Valley. On the fourth troop lift, the airlift began to take enemy fire, and by the time the aircraft had refueled and returned for the next troop lift, the enemy had Landing Zone X-Ray targeted. As Major Crandall and the first eight helicopters landed to discharge troops on his fifth troop lift, his unarmed helicopter came under such intense enemy fire that the ground commander ordered the second flight of eight aircraft to abort their mission. As Major Crandall flew back to Plei Me, his base of operations, he determined that the ground commander of the besieged infantry batallion desperately needed more ammunition. Major Crandall then decided to adjust his base of operations to Artillery Firebase Falcon in order to shorten the flight distance to deliver ammunition and evacuate wounded soldiers. While medical evacuation was not his mission, he immediately sought volunteers and with complete disregard for his own personal safety, led the two aircraft to Landing Zone X-Ray. Despite the fact that the landing zone was still under relentless enemy fire, Major Crandall landed and proceeded to supervise the loading of seriously wounded soldiers aboard his aircraft. Major Crandall's voluntary decision to land under the most extreme fire instilled in the other pilots the will and spirit to continue to land their own aircraft, and in the ground forces the realization that they would be resupplied and that friendly wounded would be promptly evacuated. This greatly enhanced morale and the will to fight at a critical time. After his first medical evacuation, Major Crandall continued to fly into and out of the landing zone throughout the day and into the evening. That day he completed a total of 22 flights, most under intense enemy fire, retiring from the battlefield only after all possible service had been rendered to the Infantry battalion. His actions provided critical resupply of ammunition and evacuation of the wounded. Major Crandall's daring acts of bravery and courage in the face of an overwhelming and determined enemy are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

31 posted on 04/01/2007 12:11:55 PM PDT by jazusamo (http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm)
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To: curmudgeonII
"I'm curious as to what act[s] of heroism the aviator did that recently gave him the Congressional Medal of Honor. He was in combat, true, but what else? Are we going to give out CMHs now because it's politically correct?"

Simmer down. They were given Congressional Gold Medals.....not Congressional Medals of Honor.

32 posted on 04/01/2007 12:13:08 PM PDT by Godebert
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To: Pukin Dog
Black pilots might even have been lynched in the states for allowing a White airman to die in combat.

Likely not, but black men were lynched for less. More likely there would simply have been a huge political push by Southern Dems to break up black combat units.

The record is probably not as clear as it would seem. Fighter escort was rarely attached to the same bomber group for the entire mission, but rather for a portion of it. When exactly a bomber was shot down, under who's protection, and by what was always a fuzzy answer. Many historians point to "official records" as if "official" is synonymous with "factual". Kill claims were often 300-400% of actual losses by both sides, and the area/time of a loss is often found to be greatly different even among the logs of the same force.

Although the claim was always hard to believe, it almost certainly was purposefully exaggerated to forward the political agenda of black equality, given the hostile attitudes against it at the time. The military was not keen on this at the time, as you seem to suggest.

The same thing was done with Free French units, which were given choice missions, and much heralded in each success.

33 posted on 04/01/2007 12:14:08 PM PDT by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: Names Ash Housewares
"Probably there were many pilots that did not fly those missions where a bomber was lost and did not lose bombers on their own missions and the story started that way."

From the article:

"...the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen had never lost a bomber they escorted to enemy fire first appeared on March 24, 1945, in an article in the black newspaper Chicago Defender. The newspaper's headline read "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss."

The information was attributed only to "the 15th Air Force, Italy."

"In fact, on the very day the claim was published, more bombers under 332nd Fighter Group escort were shot down," Haulman wrote.
34 posted on 04/01/2007 12:19:23 PM PDT by Main Street (Stuck in traffic)
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To: EveningStar
It is beyond me why something like that would be brought up now. I am sure at least some bombers were shot down by enemy fighters while they were being escorted. The main thing about their reputation was that they always stuck with the formations no matter what. One of my old girl friends father who was from South Carolina was a B24 pilot. He was escorted by them on numerous occasions and had nothing but praise for them. What is interesting is the number of bombers who may have been shot down by other bombers when everyone was firing at something. I have seen that rate as high as 5%. But, so what, they still flew in and hit their targets and helped win the war. I think articles like this is just another attempt by the media to devide the country.
35 posted on 04/01/2007 12:21:50 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (Support your local EOD Detachment)
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To: EveningStar

I have had the honor to meet some of these guys. They are a real pleasure to talk to.


36 posted on 04/01/2007 12:23:01 PM PDT by panzer_grey
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To: Kirkwood

"The tragedy is that they weren't used sooner in the war. They were extremely well-trained abd would have given the Luftwaffe a tough time when our bomber crews really needed them."

They were used very early in the war, starting with the North Africa campaign.


37 posted on 04/01/2007 12:27:55 PM PDT by Sam Hill
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To: EveningStar

A proud group who did their jobs and Contributed much. Our thanks to them.


38 posted on 04/01/2007 12:33:05 PM PDT by cubreporter
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
What's your point?

To post an interesting story.

White squadrons lost plenty of bombers. 60,000 Americans died in the air war over Germany.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Comparisons of this sort are invidious, gratuitous and serve no purpose but to stir up animosities.

This isn't StormFront. The mods will deal with any bigots who show up on this thread.

39 posted on 04/01/2007 12:34:38 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: Pukin Dog
The only problem I have with it, is that nobody in their right mind would believe such a record anyway, but it is still quoted as fact whenever the Airmen are mentioned.

I always doubted the claim myself.

My reasons:

1) Close escort never really deterred a determined attack.
2) Top cover frequently couldn't even observe an attacking element, particularly when there was heavy cloud cover as was typical for most of the year in the ETO. Those bomber streams could occupy a lot of airspace.
3) A lost bomber is a lost bomber, whether due to flak, engine failure, or any other cause. If a ship doesn't come home who is to say what the reason was.

To say "we never lost 1 to an enemy fighter" is like saying we never got scored upon in the 2nd quarter of a football game. It's an accomplishment of a sort.

Of course if you point out any of this reasoning, you're labeled a bigot.

40 posted on 04/01/2007 12:36:36 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: Condor 63
It is true because like most of us on many occasions he (Boyington) was an assh***.

Well, not to argue degree ... but Pappy got a top ranking in that category.

41 posted on 04/01/2007 12:39:02 PM PDT by BluH2o
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To: EveningStar
I'm sure whatever inaccuracies were out there... were dumped by our substandard, undemanding, politically-correct media.
42 posted on 04/01/2007 12:40:23 PM PDT by johnny7 ("Issue in Doubt." -Col. David Monroe Shoup, USMC 1943)
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To: Condor 63

Boyingtons AVG claims are no longer officially credited to his overall totals. I noticed this when checking the overall 'rankings' of our air aces.


43 posted on 04/01/2007 12:46:48 PM PDT by Tallguy
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To: longtermmemmory

"These men were complicit in a "symbolism over substance" pr stunt. The lie is the stunt.

They need to come clean fast, say mea culpa and now publish the record better. How many books are now wrong?

How many black history month propaganda films are now wrong but are NEVER going to be corrected in order to protect image over substance? Answer NONE."


Here is another link to a rewriting of history, it is about an award winning documentary that was revealed to be simply made up.

"It took a months-long campaign by veterans of the genuine liberator units to get PBS to disavow the 1992 documentary,"Liberators: Fighting on Two Fronts in World War II," which falsely credited the 761st Tank and another African-American battalion (183rd Combat Engineers) with liberating Buchenwald and Dachau, the two largest camps freed by Americans."

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b125b384e8f.htm


44 posted on 04/01/2007 1:07:50 PM PDT by ansel12 ((America, love it ,or at least give up your home citizenship before accepting ours too.))
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To: Tallguy
They may never have been officially credited. About the closest I could ever come to determining yea or nay was that the Black Sheep apparently thought they were and Pappy certainly thought they should have been. The book Once They Were Eagles makes this pretty certain since it contains a multitude of interviews with the Black Sheep. They were conscious enough of the kills to be keeping a running account and making sure Pappy went airborne whenever possible to increase his chances. If I remember right, that played into the flight that ended up getting him shot down which was one ordinarily he wouldn't have made.

Our Birmingham Black Sheep alum Harry Johnson apparently thought the AVG kills were still being credited the last time I read an interview with him, which has been a while back.

There was certainly a big stink about it and probably Pappy didn't help his case out too much considering the mutual aggravation factor he had going with Marine honchos. LOL

45 posted on 04/01/2007 1:16:22 PM PDT by Condor 63
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To: EveningStar

It would have been impossible for any fighter squadron not to have lost at least one bomber to enemy fire. The men are still heroes.


46 posted on 04/01/2007 1:41:57 PM PDT by driftless2
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To: Sam Hill

"They were used very early in the war, starting with the North Africa campaign."

They were sent to Africa, but never used there. They only continued training. In fact their first combat mission was not until the Sicilian invasion of July 1943 to attack the small island of Pantelleria in the Mediterranean Sea between Sicily and Tunisia. This is at least a year into the ETO operations, which I would not call the very early part of the war, but rather the latter half.


47 posted on 04/01/2007 1:42:38 PM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: EveningStar

April fools?

Seriously, AAA isn't particularly affected by the escort.


48 posted on 04/01/2007 1:45:51 PM PDT by BJClinton (Gore/Nader 2008!)
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To: Kirkwood

"The questions is, what took out those 20 bombers?"

Perhaps AAA or jets.


49 posted on 04/01/2007 1:47:04 PM PDT by Levante
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To: EveningStar

You did nothing wrong - whatsoever - in posting this article. I always doubted the "no losses" claim and am glad to know someone sat down and actully did the research. Why some people are getting so upset about this is beyond me. The truth shouldn't be so threatening to people. No one is harmed by the truth in this case.


50 posted on 04/01/2007 1:47:15 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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