Report: Tuskegee Airmen lost 25 bombers

AP - Yahoo ^ | April 1, 2007

[EveningStar]

At least 25 bombers being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen over Europe during World War II were shot down by enemy aircraft, according to a new Air Force report.

The report contradicts the legend that the famed black aviators never lost a plane to fire from enemy aircraft...

[Kirkwood]

"Even with the new information they were an outstanding unit with great pilots."

The tragedy is that they weren't used sooner in the war. They were extremely well-trained abd would have given the Luftwaffe a tough time when our bomber crews really needed them.

[Aeronaut]

[LS]

And it was silly to think otherwise. No fighter pilots can 100% protect bombers, any more than a condom can guarantee against pregnancy. It doesn't diminish what they did accomplish.

[Aeronaut]

I'm curious as to what act[s] of heroism the aviator did that recently gave him the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Please re-read the article, a little closer this time.

[BluH2o]

Boyington was obviously one of the best Americans in the air during WWII.

That's true ... but many that knew him thaught he was a first class assh***.

[rbmillerjr]

"I love to hear these guys talk. They are true heroes and gentlemen. They are classy as can be."

They are also role models for black teens in the inner cities and elsewhere. It's a damn shame that people like Jesse Jackson and Barry Bonds are considered role models.

I met one of these guys (forgive me for not remembering his name)at a mall book signing. I felt honored to speak with him and he spoke with me just like my granfather would have. A true gentlemen, I need to get that book out of a box back out on my shelf and re read it(recently moved).

Related Topic on the PC media. Pat Tillman's death and coverup until after his funeral - compare and contrast. So they knew that 25 bombers were shot down but now the news breaks AFTER the Gold Medal Ceremony. Hmm kettle meet Mr. Black.

[longtermmemmory]

sadly I think it does tarnish the image because obviously this was not a one person mistake. These men were complicit in a "symbolism over substance" pr stunt. The lie is the stunt.

They need to come clean fast, say mea culpa and now publish the record better. How many books are now wrong?

How many black history month propaganda films are now wrong but are NEVER going to be corrected in order to protect image over substance? Answer NONE.

They still are to be admired but just not for the lie.

[Condor 63]

That's true ... but many that knew him thaught he was a first class assh***.

That is true. It is true because like most of us on many occasions he was an assh***.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

What's your point?

White squadrons lost plenty of bombers. 60,000 Americans died in the air war over Germany.

Comparisons of this sort are invidious, gratuitous and serve no purpose but to stir up animosities.

[COEXERJ145]

There is a difference in rewriting history and correcting it.

[jazusamo]

You may be referring to then Major Bruce Crandall, Medal Of Honor recipient, US Army helicopter pilot.

Citation

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:

Major Bruce P. Crandall distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism as a Flight Commander in the Republic of Vietnam, while serving with Company A, 229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile). On 14 November 1965, his flight of sixteen helicopters was lifting troops for a search and destroy mission from Plei Me, Vietnam, to Landing Zone X-Ray in the la Drang Valley. On the fourth troop lift, the airlift began to take enemy fire, and by the time the aircraft had refueled and returned for the next troop lift, the enemy had Landing Zone X-Ray targeted. As Major Crandall and the first eight helicopters landed to discharge troops on his fifth troop lift, his unarmed helicopter came under such intense enemy fire that the ground commander ordered the second flight of eight aircraft to abort their mission. As Major Crandall flew back to Plei Me, his base of operations, he determined that the ground commander of the besieged infantry batallion desperately needed more ammunition. Major Crandall then decided to adjust his base of operations to Artillery Firebase Falcon in order to shorten the flight distance to deliver ammunition and evacuate wounded soldiers. While medical evacuation was not his mission, he immediately sought volunteers and with complete disregard for his own personal safety, led the two aircraft to Landing Zone X-Ray. Despite the fact that the landing zone was still under relentless enemy fire, Major Crandall landed and proceeded to supervise the loading of seriously wounded soldiers aboard his aircraft. Major Crandall's voluntary decision to land under the most extreme fire instilled in the other pilots the will and spirit to continue to land their own aircraft, and in the ground forces the realization that they would be resupplied and that friendly wounded would be promptly evacuated. This greatly enhanced morale and the will to fight at a critical time. After his first medical evacuation, Major Crandall continued to fly into and out of the landing zone throughout the day and into the evening. That day he completed a total of 22 flights, most under intense enemy fire, retiring from the battlefield only after all possible service had been rendered to the Infantry battalion. His actions provided critical resupply of ammunition and evacuation of the wounded. Major Crandall's daring acts of bravery and courage in the face of an overwhelming and determined enemy are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.

[Godebert]

"I'm curious as to what act[s] of heroism the aviator did that recently gave him the Congressional Medal of Honor. He was in combat, true, but what else? Are we going to give out CMHs now because it's politically correct?"

Simmer down. They were given Congressional Gold Medals.....not Congressional Medals of Honor.

[SampleMan]

Black pilots might even have been lynched in the states for allowing a White airman to die in combat.

Likely not, but black men were lynched for less. More likely there would simply have been a huge political push by Southern Dems to break up black combat units.

The record is probably not as clear as it would seem. Fighter escort was rarely attached to the same bomber group for the entire mission, but rather for a portion of it. When exactly a bomber was shot down, under who's protection, and by what was always a fuzzy answer. Many historians point to "official records" as if "official" is synonymous with "factual". Kill claims were often 300-400% of actual losses by both sides, and the area/time of a loss is often found to be greatly different even among the logs of the same force.

Although the claim was always hard to believe, it almost certainly was purposefully exaggerated to forward the political agenda of black equality, given the hostile attitudes against it at the time. The military was not keen on this at the time, as you seem to suggest.

The same thing was done with Free French units, which were given choice missions, and much heralded in each success.

[Main Street]

"Probably there were many pilots that did not fly those missions where a bomber was lost and did not lose bombers on their own missions and the story started that way."

From the article:

"...the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen had never lost a bomber they escorted to enemy fire first appeared on March 24, 1945, in an article in the black newspaper Chicago Defender. The newspaper's headline read "332nd Flies Its 200th Mission Without Loss."

The information was attributed only to "the 15th Air Force, Italy."

"In fact, on the very day the claim was published, more bombers under 332nd Fighter Group escort were shot down," Haulman wrote.

[U S Army EOD]

It is beyond me why something like that would be brought up now. I am sure at least some bombers were shot down by enemy fighters while they were being escorted. The main thing about their reputation was that they always stuck with the formations no matter what. One of my old girl friends father who was from South Carolina was a B24 pilot. He was escorted by them on numerous occasions and had nothing but praise for them. What is interesting is the number of bombers who may have been shot down by other bombers when everyone was firing at something. I have seen that rate as high as 5%. But, so what, they still flew in and hit their targets and helped win the war. I think articles like this is just another attempt by the media to devide the country.

[panzer_grey]

I have had the honor to meet some of these guys. They are a real pleasure to talk to.

[Sam Hill]

"The tragedy is that they weren't used sooner in the war. They were extremely well-trained abd would have given the Luftwaffe a tough time when our bomber crews really needed them."

They were used very early in the war, starting with the North Africa campaign.

[cubreporter]

A proud group who did their jobs and Contributed much. Our thanks to them.

[EveningStar]

What's your point?

To post an interesting story.

White squadrons lost plenty of bombers. 60,000 Americans died in the air war over Germany.

Comparisons of this sort are invidious, gratuitous and serve no purpose but to stir up animosities.

This isn't StormFront. The mods will deal with any bigots who show up on this thread.

[Tallguy]

The only problem I have with it, is that nobody in their right mind would believe such a record anyway, but it is still quoted as fact whenever the Airmen are mentioned.

I always doubted the claim myself.

My reasons:

1) Close escort never really deterred a determined attack.
2) Top cover frequently couldn't even observe an attacking element, particularly when there was heavy cloud cover as was typical for most of the year in the ETO. Those bomber streams could occupy a lot of airspace.
3) A lost bomber is a lost bomber, whether due to flak, engine failure, or any other cause. If a ship doesn't come home who is to say what the reason was.

To say "we never lost 1 to an enemy fighter" is like saying we never got scored upon in the 2nd quarter of a football game. It's an accomplishment of a sort.

Of course if you point out any of this reasoning, you're labeled a bigot.