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Find raises doubts on key theory of human evolution
The Scotsman ^ | April 3, 2007 | JOHN VON RADOWITZ

Posted on 04/02/2007 7:10:57 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger

A 40,000-YEAR-OLD skeleton found in China has raised questions about the "out of Africa" hypothesis on how early modern humans populated the planet.

The fossil bones are the oldest from an adult "modern" human to be found in eastern Asia.

They contain features that call into question the widely held view that our direct ancestors completed their evolution in Africa before spreading out into Europe and the Far East.

The "out of Africa" hypothesis proposes that all humans alive today are descended from a small group of sub- Saharan Africans who made their way out of the continent about 60,000 years ago.

A rival theory suggests that modern humans evolved into their current form in a number of different locations around the world, not just Africa.

Some experts think people today are the result of interbreeding between the later emigrating humans and the older inhabitants they encountered.

The new discovery came after workers stumbled across the bones in Tianyuan Cave, in Zhoukoudian, near Beijing.

Experts writing in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences dated the skeleton to between 38,500 and 42,000 years ago.

As well as having "modern" human traits, the skeleton also had physical characteristics normally seen in Neanderthals and other more ancient humans such as Homo erectus.


TOPICS: Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; fsmdidit; godsgravesglyphs; origins; piltdownman; prehistory; tianyuancave; yecapologetics
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1 posted on 04/02/2007 7:11:03 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me

2 posted on 04/02/2007 7:11:48 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: SunkenCiv

ping


3 posted on 04/02/2007 7:19:40 PM PDT by To Hell With Poverty (If this city were any 'bluer', it'd be spelled 'bleu'.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
“...other more ancient humans such as Homo erectus.”

Could this be the source of sexual deviancy? :)

4 posted on 04/02/2007 7:24:48 PM PDT by Mister Da (The mark of a wise man is not what he knows, but what he knows he doesn't know!)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Uh-Oh! The representative for Geico will not be pleased.


5 posted on 04/02/2007 7:31:24 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; To Hell With Poverty

Almost a photo finish. :’) Thanks for the pings.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1810947/posts


6 posted on 04/02/2007 7:41:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Rule Number 1: Never question the orthodoxy required of the methodological naturalist's cloaked assumptions regarding history. Otherwise you are simply “unscientific” and thereby unworthy of commentary.
7 posted on 04/02/2007 7:42:04 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Is this gonna be aNOTHER of your inFLAMatory threads?
—EvoDude


8 posted on 04/02/2007 7:43:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

More evidence of the rise of China. They also invented gun powder and egg rolls.


9 posted on 04/02/2007 7:43:29 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: NicknamedBob

“You could do a little RESEARCH!”


10 posted on 04/02/2007 7:43:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; neverdem; sionnsar; RightWhale

Actually, a distributed evolution makes more sense, considering the tight timeline involved in developing intelligence.

Some hybrid vigor could have accelerated the process.

The problem is arranging the frequent family get-togethers.


11 posted on 04/02/2007 7:45:26 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; Alamo-Girl; AndrewC; Asphalt; Aussie Dasher; AnalogReigns; banalblues; Baraonda; ...

Oh great! - Now we have to conjur-up an Out-of-China wing of evolunacy....


12 posted on 04/02/2007 8:00:13 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: Elsie

Nah, they tend not to show up on threads of substance that challenge their assumptions. They’d rather attack me.


13 posted on 04/02/2007 8:00:43 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: Fester Chugabrew

Another evolutionary “prediction” shot down the drain.


14 posted on 04/02/2007 8:01:05 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Found in China...yeah sure...but there was no China there then.


15 posted on 04/02/2007 8:03:47 PM PDT by eleni121 ( + En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great))
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To: eleni121; DaveLoneRanger
"... yeah sure...but there was no China there then."

They had to use paper plates?

16 posted on 04/02/2007 8:09:58 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Don't bother to gloat too much.

Either of these possibilities shows that the "young earth" and "creation some 6000 years ago" ideas are wrong.

And even if both of these possibilities were subsequently shown to be wrong, that doesn't make your particular religious belief true.

Why don't you try to visit your college library, and really look at a few dozen or a few hundred of the technical journals dealing with evolution.

You are not getting a straight story from AnswersinGenesis.

17 posted on 04/02/2007 8:10:22 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: NicknamedBob; eleni121
DUH, people! It was China? Maybe they used chopsticks?
18 posted on 04/02/2007 8:11:32 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; Ethan Clive Osgoode
Another evolutionary “prediction” shot down the drain.

Don't count on it. When you're dealing with rubber science the drain tends to get plugged up.

19 posted on 04/02/2007 8:11:38 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: DaveLoneRanger

The evos will never get it....


20 posted on 04/02/2007 8:14:39 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8...down to 3..GWB, we hardly knew ye...)
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To: NicknamedBob

distributed, schmibuted

Evolution from ape like creature to man never happened.


21 posted on 04/02/2007 8:16:02 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8...down to 3..GWB, we hardly knew ye...)
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To: Coyoteman
Either of these possibilities shows that the "young earth" and "creation some 6000 years ago" ideas are wrong.
They contradict your own theory, that's about it. It does not disprove or prove young-earth either way.
And even if both of these possibilities were subsequently shown to be wrong, that doesn't make your particular religious belief true.
By itself, this point does not further creationism a whole lot. It's just another two-pence tossed into the vault of evidence turned sour for evolutionists.
Why don't you try to visit your college library, and really look at a few dozen or a few hundred of the technical journals dealing with evolution.
Some time I should share with you some of the recent materials I have been perusing from scientific journals the past few months while the crevo wars here have been quiet.
You are not getting a straight story from AnswersinGenesis.
Did I detect a subtle twitch when you said that? Coyote, listen to me. This has nothing to do with Answers in Genesis. Ken Ham didn't call me up and ask me to post this story, I didn't get any marching orders from Kent Hovind. (Well, he did ask me to help him break out of jail, but that's another story.) AiG may not even be aware of this story yet.

Bringing them into this as a personal attack against me hints at a psychological obsession.
22 posted on 04/02/2007 8:18:21 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: RaceBannon
"Evolution from ape like creature to man never happened."

Let me guess. There are no horse thieves in your ancestry either, right?

23 posted on 04/02/2007 8:22:35 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: NicknamedBob

not from the tail, correct.


24 posted on 04/02/2007 8:31:35 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8...down to 3..GWB, we hardly knew ye...)
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To: editor-surveyor
The "out of Africa" hypothesis proposes that all humans alive today are descended from a small group of sub- Saharan Africans who made their way out of the continent about 60,000 years ago.

What's that again about a small group of individuals couldn't possibly contain enough genetic variety to result in a healthy population? Something about all the people in the world couldn't have come from Noah and his sons? I guess that's only a problem if you believe in creation. If you believe in evolution, it's perfectly reasonable. Yeah, right....

25 posted on 04/02/2007 8:32:46 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Either of these possibilities shows that the "young earth" and "creation some 6000 years ago" ideas are wrong.

They contradict your own theory, that's about it. It does not disprove or prove young-earth either way.

My theory? Debating the out-of-Africa theory (160,000 years ago) vs. the more recent China data (multiregional, probably both 160,000 and 40,000 years ago) does not contradict a 6000 years ago earth? You really need to read some science. Two different theories of out-of-Africa migration, both of which deal with hundreds of thousands of years of time don't contraindicate a 6000 year old earth?


And even if both of these possibilities were subsequently shown to be wrong, that doesn't make your particular religious belief true.

By itself, this point does not further creationism a whole lot. It's just another two-pence tossed into the vault of evidence turned sour for evolutionists.

It doesn't further YEC creationism at all. It contradicts it.


Why don't you try to visit your college library, and really look at a few dozen or a few hundred of the technical journals dealing with evolution.

Some time I should share with you some of the recent materials I have been perusing from scientific journals the past few months while the crevo wars here have been quiet.

You are cruising the internet looking for articles which, in your limited understanding, may serve to cast some doubt--any doubt--on evolution. That does not amount to an understanding of science.


You are not getting a straight story from AnswersinGenesis.

Did I detect a subtle twitch when you said that? Coyote, listen to me. This has nothing to do with Answers in Genesis. Ken Ham didn't call me up and ask me to post this story, I didn't get any marching orders from Kent Hovind. (Well, he did ask me to help him break out of jail, but that's another story.) AiG may not even be aware of this story yet. Bringing them into this as a personal attack against me hints at a psychological obsession.

Not interested in Ken Ham or Kent Hovind. They don't post here. You do. And you post anti-science nonsense, which you have admitted you get from AnswersinGenesis. And you have admitted you are doing apologetics (defense of religion), not science.

Post in the Religion Forum and you won't get any challenges from me as long as what you are posting is religious belief and does not pretend to be science. That's where you and I tangle. (Note tagline.)

26 posted on 04/02/2007 8:35:42 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
missing link?


27 posted on 04/02/2007 8:38:54 PM PDT by McBuff
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To: RaceBannon
"not from the tail, correct."

I'd respond to that, if I had any idea what you were talking about.

I'm confident that my own family had its share of thieves, but mostly chicken thieves. I can't quite boast that we had ever graduated to horses.

And I'm equally sure we performed our share of monkeyshines.

28 posted on 04/02/2007 8:43:45 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Why does a skeleton from 40,000 years ago, 20,000 years after our ancestors supposedly left Africa negate that hypothesis, which does not claim that they were the only “humans” around? The fact that some of those people mated with other slightly less-advanced people they encountered is hardly surprising.


29 posted on 04/02/2007 8:47:28 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: Coyoteman

Hi, I’m still waiting for an answer to my question: in what direction will a pencil go if you let go of it tomorrow? I know it sounds like a stupid question, but there’s a reason I’m asking. thanks.


30 posted on 04/02/2007 8:50:25 PM PDT by rudy45
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To: rudy45
I know it sounds like a stupid question...

You know best.

Seriously, I know little of the science behind the theory of gravitation.

I do have training in fossil man, human races, osteology, radiocarbon dating, and several related fields. I prefer to limit my comments to those fields in which I have some personal knowledge.

31 posted on 04/02/2007 8:58:30 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: NicknamedBob
And God said “send them one ping and one ping only”. Thus the world was pinged int creation.
32 posted on 04/02/2007 9:01:05 PM PDT by U_N_l_O_N J_A_C_K (Orgel's Second Rule: Evolution is cleverer than you are.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I don’t understand the significance. 20,000 years is plenty of time for humans to migrate from Africa to China.

It doesn’t even have any bearing on the evolution/creation question, as long as you’re not sticking to a 4004 BC creation belief. And then you can just doubt the accuracy of the time measurement.

Mrs VS


33 posted on 04/02/2007 9:01:39 PM PDT by VeritatisSplendor
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To: U_N_l_O_N J_A_C_K

Ah, yes. The Big Ping Theory.

Good call.


34 posted on 04/02/2007 9:11:23 PM PDT by NicknamedBob (I know where I have gone wrong, and I can cite it, chapter and verse.)
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To: Coyoteman

lol.

Let’s give it a try. It’s all “science,” right? If I remember from school, “the past is the key to the future.” Forgive me for putting words into your mouth, but I suspect your own position would be that a pencil, if dropped tomorrow, would “fall down.” I suspect that your answer would be the same if it happened next week. In fact, your answer probably would be the same regardless of the time it happened (assuming, of course, we’re on earth and not in space).

Have I got it right? Or, have I messed up? Is it possible that you think a pencil could fall UP rather than down? Thanks for humoring me.
lol


35 posted on 04/02/2007 9:34:09 PM PDT by rudy45
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To: rudy45
Sorry, I'm not biting.

Whatever answer I make you will come back with a response which will require that I know details of physics which I simply don't know.

And I am not willing to fake (or google) knowledge that I do not have.

Bait some of the few scientists remaining here who are familiar with that branch of physics.

You have questions on bones or radiocarbon dating, let me know.

36 posted on 04/02/2007 9:38:23 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

37 posted on 04/02/2007 10:11:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: editor-surveyor
One thing is certain in the theory of evolution esp to the part as man sprang from some sort of apelike creature.

And that is, no matter how times it is turned over with ‘more elegant ideas’, evidence discarded, re-dated, time spans altered, origins changed or added, etc etc, a few things will remain the same with it.

And that will be evo talking ‘MAN is from ape, he is ape’! that only gets more certain with every turn of the spade!

But seriously, it looks like we may be in fact headed toward a culture/govt that looks toward that way.

38 posted on 04/02/2007 10:27:09 PM PDT by RunningWolf (2-1 Cav 1975)
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To: editor-surveyor

Thanks for the ping!


39 posted on 04/02/2007 10:27:40 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: rudy45; Coyoteman
What direction and/or where will any chimp or ape if you let him go tomorrow?

The same conditions exist today in Africa for the 'apes to man hypothesis'

40 posted on 04/02/2007 11:20:25 PM PDT by RunningWolf (2-1 Cav 1975)
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To: NicknamedBob

41 posted on 04/02/2007 11:23:59 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: DaveLoneRanger
The new discovery came after workers stumbled across the bones in Tianyuan Cave, in Zhoukoudian, near Beijing.

Now we'll observe how "expert" scientists stumble across themselves trying to modify their theories.

42 posted on 04/02/2007 11:46:29 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Coyoteman

Maybe you should think about posting in “Evolution is a Lie” forum. There you’d be able to post all your articles from the evo sites. “Evo”, hmmm, really sounds like “evil”. Fancy that.


43 posted on 04/02/2007 11:55:54 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Coyoteman

I see you didn’t list religion as one of your expert fields. That means you don’t see or know the BIG picture. But that has been recognized by many on this site as looking thru the wrong end of the telescope.


44 posted on 04/03/2007 12:03:43 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: taxesareforever

-“Evo”, hmmm, really sounds like “evil”. Fancy that.-

Now... I’ll admit, this one made me laugh out loud.


45 posted on 04/03/2007 2:00:21 AM PDT by 49th (this space for rent)
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To: Coyoteman; DaveLoneRanger
and really look at a few dozen or a few hundred of the technical journals dealing with evolution

They're located right next to the "esteemed research" on Global Warming.

46 posted on 04/03/2007 3:18:42 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: Fester Chugabrew
When you're dealing with rubber science the drain tends to get plugged up.

I'm surprised the editor didn't prefix a "Darwin proved true" to the headline. Any evidence, whether it supports, refutes, or is irrelevant to darwinism merits one. But then this isn't the NYT.

So now it's out of china. If this "out of china" movement gets hold (again) maybe we'll see some "out of africa" fossils exposed as fakes by the "out of china" crowd. And vice versa. Btw what ever happened to 300,000 year-old (ha ha) Peking Man anyway, and how does that fit into this timeline?

Various parties have tried to locate the fossils but, so far, without result. In 1972, a US financier Christopher Janus promised a $5,000 (U.S.) reward for the missing skulls; one woman contacted him, asking for $500,000 (U.S.) but she later vanished. In July 2005, the Chinese government founded a committee to find the bones to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II. There are also various theories of what might have happened, including a theory that the bones had sunk with a Japanese ship Awa Maru in 1945.

Wikipedia


47 posted on 04/03/2007 3:35:36 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
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To: Coyoteman

“Post in the Religion Forum and you won’t get any challenges from me as long as what you are posting is religious belief and does not pretend to be science.”

Interesting watching the two of you go back and forth.

A couple comments; many modern scientists treat their ‘science’ the same as a religion. They won’t admit it of course.

Second, do you believe that everything in the Universe can be understood by man?


48 posted on 04/03/2007 3:52:49 AM PDT by driftdiver
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To: driftdiver

When it comes to the subject of evolution of the species on Earth we can’t ignore what honest science is revealing. I’ve read dozens of technical articles myself on this subject, especially as it relates DNA studies with evolution. And as a result I’ve developed some opinions. One thing I find on DNA studies that makes them so reliable is that it’s so mathematical/objective rather than subjective like so many of the “soft” sciences are. In many ways DNA results and their implications remind me of the Theory of Addition. Don’t be hardhearted or else you’ll spend your life being blindsighted.

Hint: The Theory of Addition is that if 1+1=2 and 1+2=3 then 1+3=4. Most honest scientists who have tested this theory have come to the conclusion that it’s a solid one. That’s why we teach this Theory of Addition in the schools. So if your iman tells you that the Koran says that 1+3=5 then I think your iman is most likely mistaken.


49 posted on 04/03/2007 4:12:20 AM PDT by Degaston
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To: Degaston

“That’s why we teach this Theory of Addition in the schools. So if your iman tells you that the Koran says that 1+3=5 then I think your iman is most likely mistaken.”

1 - I don’t have an imam or iman.

2 - your analogy is insultingly oversimplified. DNA is extremely complex and a recent study indicated that there may be a lot more to DNA than scientists first thought. That the simple mapping was only the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

IMO, its quite egotistical and shows severe lack of wisdom to think everything in the universe can be explained. Theres nothing wrong with science but its worship is misguided.


50 posted on 04/03/2007 4:37:14 AM PDT by driftdiver
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