Skip to comments.Brit Wimps
Posted on 04/04/2007 9:42:54 AM PDT by balch3
Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe meI've been therehave a LOT of rocks). Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.
The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.
And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.
(Excerpt) Read more at corner.nationalreview.com ...
What a silly point of view.
Brits ARENT wimps. That credit goes to Downing St and their moonbat minority. The US has it’s wimp quotient as well.
Not sure I disagree with the premise. What happened to the standard reply of name, rank and serial number?
We’ll hear more soon enough. Did they threaten to torture the woman or others?
It does need answering.
The fact that this point of view is deemed "silly" by so many is part of the reason these soldiers were captured in the first place.
I find this comment article by John Derbyshire premature (we haven’t heard from the sailors and marines themselves) and thus offensive.
What a bunch of hooey.
I sympathize with Derbyshire, but I’m not sure he’s right.
Apparently the Rules of Engagement were to surrender immediately rather than defend themselves. So they were taken hostage not because of any failure on their part, but because they followed instructions. The captain of the backup ship, too, followed direct orders not to defend his men.
And I’m far from sure what the rules are now for prisoners.
It used to be name, rank, and serial number, period. But I suspect that like the rules of engagement those guidelines may have been changed by the British politicians, so they are instructed to do whatever it takes not to get themselves killed. I’m not at all sure about that, but I suspect it. In any case, when your leaders refuse to let you defend yourself in the face of the enemy, it undermines the kind of resistance Derbyshire calls for.
I don’t think so. These guys were all too willing to make Iran PR clips for their captors. Maybe that had something to do with their ROE but on the whole the Brits did themselves little good overall here.
Remember, their comrades are going to have to work extra hard to overcome the perception that they are weak in a part of the world where being weak is the worst thing imaginable in the eyes of the enemy.
I’m reminded of that scene from “Red Dawn” at the makeshift re-education camp in that drive-in theatre. Harry Dean Stanton’s character Mr. Eckert tells his boys not to cry and as they leave, calls out to them “Avenge me!” That’s the backbone a captive should have. Don’t cry for me, don’t sacrifice your freedom for mine; “Avenge me.” If only I can be that strong if ever in such circumstances.
I'm not sure we will hear. For all we know know, an agreement has been made for their silence or perhaps their relatives were threatened, etc. Still there's 13 of them so you'd think at least one of them would tell the public what happened.
This could have been avoided if the British hadn’t been denied authority to fire on the Iranians when they kidnapped the marines.Second,if i had a gun to my head i’d say anything too-i’d even put on a hajib:)
Here's a message for Dirby if he trolls FR: "Go to hell, you POS."
I faulted Ralph Peterson yesterday and I’ll fault Derbyshire now - to accuse the Royal Marines of anything at all based on a few Iranian television images is simply unfair. Let’s at least get their side of it before we go calling anyone a “wimp.”
If they are not going to defend themselves, or be defended by their fellow RN personnel, what the hell are they doing out there other than providing themselves as a target?
they should have kept their mouths shut.
Look at Cicero’s answer. They are following orders.
That said, I do sympathise with the feelings behind Derbyshire’s sentiments. It has surely been infurating to observe this disgraceful Iranian theatre over the last few days.
We do not know how these people were treated, but we do know that the last batch were subjected to “mock executions”.
What now must be done is to make a new set of ROE, that makes a repeat of such a situation impossible.
This whole thing seems so stage managed by the left, to me. Traitors in high places to make a whole country look bad.
I wonder if Mr. Derbyshire has ever been held hostage. I wonder if he was ever in the military, and if so, in what capacity?
Easy to talk when one is sitting behind a computer keyboard.
Talk about making the Brits look weak then!
As it went, it made the Iranians the aggressors and the show trial was just that, a show trial. And for any future confrontations with the Iranians, I think we will pick up a bit more support from the British populace.
You would appear to be correct. Likely the individuals were instructed to be "cooperative". Otherwise, at least one of them would have resisted.
Now, we are abandoning the GWOT. Islamic radicals are good and, according to the UN, immune to any criticism. Pelosi is having her sensitivities enhanced in Syria. It's all part of the surrender folks.
Since no one took what they said seriously, then what was wrong with what they said?
so they are instructed to do whatever it takes not to get themselves killed.
It's a shame that NRO doesn't even publish pertinent details like the ROE in this piece. Their credibility plummets on stuff like this.
“It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country..”
Could it have been that these Marines have given up on their country considering that it is given away to the very people that they are supposed to protect their country from?
Article II of the Code of Conduct states: I will NEVER surrender of my own FREE will. If in command I will never surrender my men while they have the MEANS to resist.
Article III states : If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available, and I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Article V states: When questioned as a POW, I am bound ONLY to give Name, Rank, Service Number and DOB. I will evade answering further questions to the UTMOST of my ability. I will MAKE NO ORAL or WRITTEN statements disloyal too my country and it's allies or harmful to their cause.
There are SIX articles in all and each one was taught, understood and a COPY SIGNED by each recruit when I went to boot camp. I still have my signed copy.
I do NOT believe this CODE OF CONDUCT still exists in today's military. Although I could be mistaken.
What good would any of their deaths have done? Start a war?
Well, they didn't really do that either. Did they.
Exactly right. However I read in at least one place these are UN imposed ROE.
Which makes me less hopeful that the Brits will tell the UN where to stick it. Hope I'm wrong on that.
He’s right. Wimps. The Phony Blur government is a disgrace.
You will not hear their part of the story, thats part of the deal that makes everyone save face. Blair and the Military will make sure of it.
BOTTOM LINE: The britz caved in to terrorists.
Ahmenidjad is the big winner in all this.
AVENNNNGE MEEEE ! indeed.
It is perhaps one of the greatest movies of all time on the subject of resistance to a cruel oppressor, if you ignore all the stupid parts.
What could we possibly "hear" at this point that would excuse the fact that these soldiers, once captured, engaged in all those "apologies" on camera? What?
To the delight of thousands of anonymous armchair generals.
I don't know if you're right (and neither do you), but if so, that reflects a wimpiness on the part of the British leadership, and Derb's point stands.
Perhaps I would too. But soldiers aren't supposed to.
We're already in one, pard. And in case you've forgotten, before AQ came on the scene, Hezbollah was responsible for more American terrorist-related deaths than any other group.
Do you have any solid evidence that their orders included "apologizing" on camera and wearing hijab if/when told?
Indeed, but that doesn't mean Derb is wrong, as he points out.
Exactly. According to one earlier report, before the British government spin artists got things under control, the rules of engagement were said to have instructed British forces not to fire at Iranian forces.
The report further said that the captain of the escort vessel radioed his superiors (unnamed) for permission to fire, explained the nature of the emergency, and was refused permission to do anything.
And the head of the admiralty was quoted the next day as saying something to the effect that it was better to use restraint than to “escalate” things.
Britain lost face even if no one "took them seriously". Perhaps especially if, because it showed that Britain could be coerced into anything. It may not be logical that it works like that, but it does.
“Article III states : If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available, and I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Article V states: When questioned as a POW, I am bound ONLY to give Name, Rank, Service Number and DOB. I will evade answering further questions to the UTMOST of my ability. I will MAKE NO ORAL or WRITTEN statements disloyal too my country and it’s allies or harmful to their cause.”
This is exactly what I was trained to do. The expectation is that under torture, everyone breaks. The whole point though, is to resist as long as possible, never knowingly give anything to the enemy, and to confuse the enemy as much as possible, for as long as possible.
I may be wrong, but it’s my impression that absolutely none of this was done by the sailors and marines involved.
There's 15 of them, and it's more than curious that all 15 weren't included in the photo-op farce following Ama-jerk's press conference (I can only count seven).
Perhaps some were not able to put on a happy face? If not, why not?
Doesn't mean he is right either. Based on everything I've been reading, sounds like these hostages did what they were told to do by their superiors. If that is the case, would Derbyshire have them disobey their superiors?
Again, it is very easy for him to talk sitting behind a computer keyboard.
As I said, I have read news reports posted here that the British troops were instructed that if they were taken prisoner they should go along with what their capturers demanded, so as to avoid being killed or making diplomatic waves. But I don’t know for certain if that is true.
Difficult to be sure in any case, because they could have been told one thing in basic training and in normal military S.O.P., and something else while they were on their mission in Iraq.
I agreed with most here in the first few days. After that, the extensive video clips began to look like reality TV shows. How humiliating for the British, and now that the 15 are to be released, I am sure that the circus will continue. Faye is a bona fide TV star now.
Derbyshire is correct in using the carpenter analogy, IMHO.
Somebody should be turning a jaundiced eye on the captain of the HMS Cornwall, but that will probably get the “hurry up and forget” treatment too.
I have seen it reported that they are ordered to “cooperate”...
Anyhow. The Iranians are still churning out propaganda videos with the sailors.. Apparently they are at some sort of reception. News released just now is that they will not be released today afterall. Will be freed tomorrow instead.