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Is The Sun Starting To Set?
IBD Editorials ^ | 6 April 2007 | Staff

Posted on 04/07/2007 8:00:30 AM PDT by Kitten Festival

Hostage Crisis: It's hard to say what was more troubling about the latest ordeal — Iran's immoral and illegal seizure of 15 British sailors or the fond farewells the ex-hostages bid their captors.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize, particularly someone who's been through a grueling ordeal. And that certainly describes what Britain's sailors went through.

That said, the reactions of those sailors — and indeed, of the British government — during the whole crisis was distressing. Is this all that's left of Britain's once-famous martial spirit? Let's hope not.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: capitulation; hostages; iran; uk

1 posted on 04/07/2007 8:00:32 AM PDT by Kitten Festival
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To: Kitten Festival

In an earlier age, sailors and marines of Her Majesty’s armed forces would have fought to the last man and chosen death before dishonor, rather than to bring such disdain and stain to the United Kingdom.

How is it that such de-evolution has occurred that allows soldiers to rationalize that it is more important to do anything and everything to preserve their own lives, instead of fighting to the death in defense of their honor, their fellow soldiers, and their Nation?

This sad spectacle bodes nothing good for Britain, Sir Winston will see from on high his words again come true, ‘you have chosen dishonor over war. you shall have both.’

The sun isn’t setting, it’s already nighttime for the U.K.

God Save the Queen.


2 posted on 04/07/2007 8:05:10 AM PDT by mkjessup (If Reagan were still with us, he'd ask us to "win one more for the Gipper, vote for Duncan Hunter!")
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To: mkjessup

Agreed. I find this incident more sobering than anything the enemy itself has done. It’s illustrative of where the West finds itself.


3 posted on 04/07/2007 8:10:58 AM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet)
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To: Kitten Festival

It was simply a very public test of the UK strength and their will, and no one needs to be told how badly the UK failed which puts them at the same level of all the other Euroweinies who occupy the continent. The EU will not stand up to the Islamo-fascists within their borders or outside their borders.


4 posted on 04/07/2007 8:17:01 AM PDT by Biblebelter
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To: Kitten Festival
Would it be so different if it happened to American soldiers?
Perhaps American training is different.

But are the leaders any different?

I have a hunch we'll soon find out...

5 posted on 04/07/2007 8:18:49 AM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: Izzy Dunne
With our present congress, we would find ourselves in the same predicament. The Dems proposed a “waiting period” on military actions. This isn’t just a UK problem, it is a larger problem of the West - spineless pinkos have, for the most part, neutered once powerful and confident nations.
6 posted on 04/07/2007 8:23:49 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: mkjessup
The sun isn’t setting, it’s already nighttime for the U.K.

God Save the Queen.

I didn't know you were that big a fan of Tony Blair /sarc>

Cheers!

7 posted on 04/07/2007 8:26:55 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Kitten Festival
Time to stop bashing the Brits. I pray we all have learned something from this and will not let it happen again. The US has a way of sitting back and being complacent until we get our teeth kicked in. Being the rebellious offspring of the UK at one time may suggest that they arent much different than us.
8 posted on 04/07/2007 8:34:13 AM PDT by DogBarkTree (Whatever happened to wars of attrition? Screw islamo hearts and minds. We need more heads on pikes.)
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To: Kitten Festival
I wonder if the British have a version of this:

The Code of Conduct



I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
Of course, the operative phrase could be "prisoner of war". Not having a declared state of war could have slowed the British chain of command's thinking process until it was too late to react.

I don't know how I would react I were in uniform and in a similar situation.
9 posted on 04/07/2007 8:38:06 AM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: grey_whiskers

You’re a funny fellow, LOL


10 posted on 04/07/2007 8:44:21 AM PDT by mkjessup (If Reagan were still with us, he'd ask us to "win one more for the Gipper, vote for Duncan Hunter!")
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To: Biblebelter

American Hostages held in Iran.

And how did we respond to this action by NK?

We apologized.

Take it easy on the Brits.

11 posted on 04/07/2007 8:45:36 AM PDT by KDD
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To: Kitten Festival

ping - DEVESTATING.


12 posted on 04/07/2007 8:48:52 AM PDT by steel_resolve (They hate us because they do not rule us)
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To: KDD

Who was President when this happened? You know it was a white flag waving democrat surrender monkey!


13 posted on 04/07/2007 8:52:46 AM PDT by noname07718
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To: Kitten Festival

europe ceased to be important after ww 1,

when france insisted upon unreasonable reparations from germany.

the despair of germany produced hitler.

ww 2 finished the goths and angle saxon tribes et al off.


14 posted on 04/07/2007 8:54:24 AM PDT by ken21 (it takes a village to brainwash your child + to steal your property! /s)
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To: KDD
All that happened in another time. Now we are faced with annihilation or conversion. Very different times.
15 posted on 04/07/2007 9:09:53 AM PDT by processing please hold (Duncan Hunter '08) (ROP and Open Borders-a terrorist marriage and hell's coming with them)
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To: mkjessup; Kitten Festival

“How is it that such de-evolution has occurred that allows soldiers to rationalize that it is more important to do anything and everything to preserve their own lives, instead of fighting to the death in defense of their honor, their fellow soldiers, and their Nation?”

These characteristics now belong to the Al Quaeda and Islamist soldiers, like it or not.

These latest events reemphasize how close we in the west are to unconditional surrender without a fight.


16 posted on 04/07/2007 9:11:26 AM PDT by aquila48
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To: KDD; pissant; All
The reason America was taken for a 444 day ride by the Assahollah Khomeini and his thugs in 1979 was because America didn't have a President with any stones at all, they had a mealy-mouthed, yellow-stained, jelly-for-a-spine, cowardly weasel sitting in the Oval Office by the name of Jimmy STP [that's 'Screw The Pooch' for those just tuning in) Carter and Carter precipitated that hostage seizure with his own betrayal of what WAS a U.S. ally, the Shah of Iran.

As for the Pueblo? No question there should have been more military backup for what was basically an unarmed old Liberty Ship, even the presence of a frigate would have prevented the seizure of that ship by those North Korean runts.

AND, you're talking about an event which took place nearly 40 years ago, in a time in which an overly aggressive response against North Korea could very likely have resulted in a second Korean War, with first the North Koreans, then the ChiComs swarming over the the 38th parallel, possibly bringing a Soviet response either in the Far East or in Europe, all while we were knee deep in Vietnam. The seizure of the Pueblo occurred while Johnson was still in office, and that crisis was inherited by Nixon.

While I personally think that a stronger response to Pyongyang was needed, they were, and are a pissant today (w/apologies to our own pissant), Iran is in a position to create chaos in that region and the UK's lackluster response will only embolden Iran to raise the ante at some future point.

Will you be telling us to 'take it easy on the Brits' when Iran dictates surrender terms to London?
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17 posted on 04/07/2007 9:37:13 AM PDT by mkjessup (If Reagan were still with us, he'd ask us to "win one more for the Gipper, vote for Duncan Hunter!")
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To: Kitten Festival

The sun began to set sometime during WW I.


18 posted on 04/07/2007 9:39:04 AM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: Army Air Corps

Our military has orders to engage immediatly. The UK and Iran just had a screw-up. Nothing to go to war over. A lot of stupid crap goes on. Usually whatever military force is told to go away. The problem in that area is piracy and hijacking of merchant ships. And the reason for ship-to-ship communication is they can’t stop on a dime.


19 posted on 04/07/2007 10:09:49 AM PDT by BobS
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To: aquila48

“These latest events reemphasize how close we in the west are to unconditional surrender without a fight.”

The three choices of Islam: Convert, death, or dhimmi. It would be prudent for readers of our board to start pondering... just in case.


20 posted on 04/07/2007 10:23:27 AM PDT by Harrius Magnus (Pucker up Mo, and your dhimmi Leftist freaks, here comes your Jizya!)
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To: Harrius Magnus

“It would be prudent for readers of our board to start pondering... just in case.”

Locked and Loaded.

Any other suggestions.


21 posted on 04/07/2007 10:44:04 AM PDT by Prost1 (Fair and Unbiased as always!)
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To: mkjessup
[ The sun isn’t setting, it’s already nighttime for the U.K. ]

If what you say is true.. Then not only has Americas schools dumbed America down greatly the dumbing down has been all over the western countrys.. For it appears that "the People" don't even know this has happened.. Charlotte Iserby's book "The Dumbing down of America" is true on a wider sense..

22 posted on 04/07/2007 10:53:52 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: SE Mom

I agree but look at the headlines on Drudge in the last two days with the 15 now reporting the real ways they were treated. Now if the Brits could only get enough spine after Blair departs to still fight Islamofascism, all may not be lost. According to Mark Steyn, America will be fighting Islam all alone. I believe it and then when the lefty Dems finally take over, our way of life will be done too. God save the Republic.


23 posted on 04/07/2007 12:12:05 PM PDT by phillyfanatic
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To: phillyfanatic

Not sure what you meant about the real ways they were treated? It was decidely unpleasant- no one will argue that...but torture?

I’m still trying to catch up on some of it- so am uncelar EXACTLY what the Code of Conduct is for the Brits. What is clear is their actions would have been a violation of the US military Code.


24 posted on 04/07/2007 12:19:02 PM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet)
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To: phillyfanatic

Agreed. And we have no right to throw stones at the Brits when our own border defenders are imprisoned for just doing their jobs.


25 posted on 04/07/2007 1:45:10 PM PDT by James W. Fannin
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To: Kitten Festival

As a native Brit I don’t think I’m being that controversial in saying that our ‘martial spirit’ declined long ago. I know that might come as a shock to some here who still use WW2 as a point of reference, but since 1945 what great military achievments can be attributed to the UK? Apart from the Falklands conflict (which, let’s face it, was hardly a war of Earth-shattering importance), pretty much anything we’ve achieved since then has been through riding on the coat-tails of the US. If it wasn’t for the historical ties across the Atlantic it’s likely that the UK would no more of a military power than France or German (in fact probably less than France, as at least they’ve retained a fair degree of national pride and some of the colonial spirit).


26 posted on 04/08/2007 4:19:44 AM PDT by moatilliatta
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To: SE Mom

Well it appears that the 15, once home told a different story from the goody bag one and that the were roughed up, treated with old fashioned brain washing techniques et al. Rule of engagement , being what they are nowadays, PC, no one is sure just where our military should or would stand. That is SECDEF and WH fault in my mind.


27 posted on 04/08/2007 7:47:10 PM PDT by phillyfanatic
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