Posted on 04/20/2007 2:55:42 AM PDT by Star Traveler
“From Address” on Package sent to NBC from Cho
A. Ismail
88 Revol
Blacksburg, VA
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“88” — used as a greeting or a closing by Neo-Nazis (in e-mails or handles). Means 8th letter of alphabet (”H”); double 8’s mean “Heil Hitler”
“Revol” — revers of “lover”; or could mean “revolution”
Hence “Heil Hitler lover” [Hitler lover]; possible “Heil Hitler revolution”
.
Significance of 88 from Anti-Defamation League
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/numbers_88.asp
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On this thread, the Neo-Nazis, there, are commenting on the fact that the press has *not yet* picked up the meaning of “88” or “Revol”
88 Thread (from Stormfront forum, Neo-Nazi forum)
http://tinyurl.com/2bgue3
Some comments from that thread...
“Who saw the fake return address Cho put on the NBC letter? It was a little inside joke Hitler reference, probably as a nod to Columbine and the proximity of the date.”
“Most people of course don’t know what 88 means. Do we really want the media to play the Hitler angle on this one?”
“Thats what I was thinking! Don’t need to give the media ammunition!”
“Good point. At least they’ll have a hard time tying him to White Supremacists like they did by lying about Klebold and Harris.”
“Ismail ax- I think this means “Ax of Ishmael”. You know, Abraham’s bastard child from Hagar. The illigitimate son who spawned the Arabs, Islam, etc...”
.
Well, even though the press did say something on the Ismail bit — they have *not* picked up on the *Hitler* reference. But, I suppose, if the press reads FReeprs, they may soon pick up on that...
Regards,
Star Traveler
Wait, let me dig out my tinfoil hat before answering. :P
Sheesh.
Hmmmmmm, maybe that’s why there 88 professors at Duke who signed a public rant against those lacrosse players....eh?
Big talk-radio fan as well...
Oh yeah, that’s it -
He was a Right Wing nutjob.
No - he was not a ‘joiner’. Your speculation just fans the flames and attempts to make a group (substitute ‘Jew’, ‘Korean’, ‘Muslim’, or ‘NRA Member’ for ‘Neo-Nazi’ and you would wind up making way more people angry) responsible somehow for what appears to be (so far) the act of a deranged individual.
People will try to analyze his actions, but that is trying to make sense of ‘insanity’. He is dead. He should have been ‘put down’ immediately, but that did not happen.
Everybody needs to just back off and take a deep breath.
‘88’ could mean a LOT of things. As could Ismael, Ishmael, and any of the ‘messages’ he left (although I am disturbed by his choosing what everybody assumes is a Muslim name as his ‘nom de guerre’).
Who cares. He is dead. It is over. We can avoid this in the future, but analyzing it is not the way. Neither is legislation or regulation.
I feel safer in a room where everybody is armed, as opposed to a ‘gun-free zone’. Always have, always will. Barring that, I feel more comfortable in a place where the sheepdogs are welcome.
ONE.......LONE.......NUT
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Star Traveler- what part of the galaxy are you in at the moment?
Regards,
Carl Lafong
It makes people feel safer if they think that they can actually spot the ‘bad guy’.
Just heard from Fox &FRiends that he was suspended for a month in middle school for having a hit list.
Yeah. Like a simple drunk driver who killed a princess.
But that doesn't make Cho anything. Cho was living out delusions in his own sick mind. That he picked up bits and pieces of equally insane ideas -- Isamil, 88, the poses -- and finally the murders, from hither and yon is to be expected. No conspiracy needed.
Cho was too much a loner, too pathologically shy -- to have joined any organization no matter how loony. JMO.
Yeah, he was one lone nut, still he “meant” something with that odd return address. Maybe 88 keys on a piano? He liked Chopin?
Doesn't that make him a Columbine copy-cat, more than it would make him a neo-Nazi?
I thought of the 88 keys on the piano, too. And you know, most of the keys are white, but the black ones are higher. That means he was a white supremacist who thought blacks were “getting uppity.” Bingo...an Asian white supremacist. ;-)
Because of your actions the ground you stand on and you that harbor its principles will forever be known (unintelligible word) the world as Holy Ground of Terrorism, Lovers of Terrorism and Sadism, Rapists of Souls, (unintelligible word) Christian Nazis, Apostles of Sin, Crucifiers of the Innocent, Kim-Jong II's of the West, American (unintelligible word) and Osamas of America.
In his own words he called his enemies 'Christian Nazis'. He was basically Anti-American and was trying to inspire a bloody revolution.
Because there are just so many darn Korean neo-nazis don’t ya know.
Oh, I think he was a nutjob all right, and not an agent of the Islamic terrorists or an agent of the Neo-Nazis. But, he does have definite symbolic references in his stuff, so it’s something to be aware of. Who knows, at this point, what his twised mind was thinking about when he shot up all those students. We’re starting to get an idea of it, but we don’t know all of it yet.
If you’re talking about the Neo-Nazis being a reviled subculture, yes..., I would agree with that. I don’t think that he was a member of that subculture. And, I don’t think he was an agent of the Islamic terrorists (like some on Free Republic are thinking). But, he did gather a lot of stuff from the Internet and apparently read a lot from the Internet, too. I say that because he wasn’t talking to his classmates and neither was he talking to his dorm-mates. They said he spent a lot of time on the computer.
Knowing that there are all sorts of garbage sites and stuff out there on the net, spouting off all sorts of hatred and crazy ideas, it’s more than likely that this guy gathered all this kind of symbolic material up from the Net and used it as a sort of justification for his own twisted thinking.
So, in that way, it pays to be aware of what these symbolic links are that he’s provided throughout his stuff...
I think you’re right, “88” is probably for Heil Hitler and “revol” is for revolution. That one is a bit clearer than the “Ishmael/Ismail” reference.
Of course that doesn’t make him a “Neo-Nazi” any more than the fact that he may have picked up on Islamist criticism of the West as “hedonist” and “degenerate” makes him an “Islamofascist.”
Bill Bennett made a good comment last night on Hannity & Colmes - he said something on the lines of, “this kid seemed to grab onto anything and everything that is evil or negative.”
I wonder, after reading his crap and considering his behavioral characteristics over his life, if he wasn’t sexually molested as a child by a teacher, relative or other adult.
Notice that up in the earlier photo pages of his letter to NBC (in one of the few pages of the PDF doc that NBC deigned to share with the citizenry) he singles out for anger Deborah LaFave and John Mark Karr, and seems incensed by them.
In his hedonism rant, he goes on and on about how this or that material possession “wasn’t enough for you” suggesting that whoever the “you” is had gone on to do something truly unspeakable. And then at the crescendo of his rant he says “and the children you f—ked!” Perhaps the “you” in his rant refers to an adult who molested him and adults generally who molest children, and in his twisted mind he is the protector of them, and by committing mass murder he believes he will throw guilt and suffering onto child molesters.
And of course child molestation was a main concern in his play McBeef.
Note that he was not just a shy kid, but pathologically shy and withdrawn, from at least middle school onwards. I gather that one common reaction by sexually abused children is extreme withdrawal, combined with self-loathing which may then manifest itself in anger.
So I agree with Bennett - he has grabbed onto lots of evil stuff, most prominently leftwing class warfare and anti-God thinking (probably pounded into him by moonbat professors), and next being an identification with the Columbine killers (as he was a loser outcast rejected by girls) and also perhaps some symbols, methods and criticisms by islamists and nazis.
And of course, behind it all, just beyond the spiritual divide, stands the father of lies.
The vast majority of the people there available to murder were "white."
Cho shot and killed people from all people groups, including at least one other youth of Korean descent. There is no strong suggestion that he targeted those of European descent.
Good one!
You said — “I have just GOT to get out my super duper, nifty, cat’s pajamas, Cracker Jack/Captain America decoder ring and start to decode this stuff to get the secret answers!”
Well, it’s one thing to start looking for “connections” and “symbolic language” where none exists — but with this guy, he had a twisted mind, which then leads to this kind of twisted thinking and these kinds of “connections” (in his mind, of course) — and then — that led to the shooting and killing of all those students.
So, he started with his perceived “injustices” to himself, stewed over it for a long time, acted very anti-socially towards everyone around him, gathers up all sorts of hate messages and symbols from the Net (since he was on it allthe time, according to his dorm-mates), forms all these different symbols and ideas into a conglomerate “mish-mash” in his head, puts it out as his “manifesto” — and then proceeds to kill all these people — mailing off his “justifications” to NBC.
I would think that this is very relevant, considering how twisted his thinking was.
What you’re referring to, when you say that — is how a *normal* person would think and how there are not going to be those kinds of “weird ideas” running around in normal people’s heads. But, this guy was not one of those normal people. Therefore, what you’re seeing here is how this *abnormal* person thinks.
It’s possible, maybe likely, that’s what he meant by the 88. It doesn’t mean he had any contact with neo-nazis or neo-nazi groups. Antisocial people take on antisocial trappings — nazi or satanist or vodun or radical Muslim. I wouldn’t read too much into it.
“88” is indeed a shibboleth among neo-nazis — often in the form “88/14.” The “14” is a reference to “the fourteen words,” coined by white supremacist David Lane: “We must secure the existence of our race and a future for white children.” The “fourteen words” are a kind of John 3:16 for bigots.
I don’t think so... it’s a very relevant thread with pertinent information on how a twisted mind thought and acted — which resulted in the massacre of so many university students...
You said — “Hmmmmmm, maybe that’s why there 88 professors at Duke who signed a public rant against those lacrosse players....eh?”
You would have to say, in that case, that 88 professors were as mentally disturbed and as “whacked out” in the head as this guy was. I doubt that hardly anyone could round up 88 people, whom they’ve come across in the last year, that could qualify as big a *nutjob* as this “Cho” was.
What you’re referring to are normal and rational people. And they are not going to have such disturbed and whacked out thinking. And they are also not going to go and shoot up classrooms and kill a bunch of students. Therefore, that type of thinking would not pertain to them.
However, this guy was that big of a nutjob. Just the fact that you see this as *crazy* — shows you how big of a nutjob he really was — for putting all that stuff together as he did — including the “88” ...
Who says it's an either/or? Klebold and Harris decided to carry out their rampage on Hitler's birthday. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't believe that Klebold, Harris or Cho were committed to nazism, or to any ideology -- they were just psychopathic losers who wanted to associate themselves with something big and scary.
Don’t know about Koreans but there’s a growing subculture of Neo Nazis in Taiwan that the authorities there are just starting to worry about.
Get a grip. One of his first two victims, in the dorm, was black.
The kid was a toxic sponge, absorbing hate, victimization and evil from any and all sources.
You said — “No - he was not a ‘joiner’. Your speculation just fans the flames and attempts to make a group (substitute ‘Jew’, ‘Korean’, ‘Muslim’, or ‘NRA Member’ for ‘Neo-Nazi’ and you would wind up making way more people angry) responsible somehow for what appears to be (so far) the act of a deranged individual.”
You’re mistaking the intent of the information. It was not to say that he joined a group. In fact, others on Free Republic are trying to say that he was an agent of some Islamic terrorist group. I don’t think so. And neither do I think he was a member of any of the other groups.
But, not being a member does not mean that he doesn’t take symbols and ideas from various groups and then put them all together, in a mish-mash form — and try to give “justification’ for his actions of killing everyone he can.
As he said — “you made me do it”
And so, in his twisted and whacked out mind, he uses these symbols and these ideas, puts them all together, makes his “manifesto” and then proceeds to kill all those students.
I didn’t say that he was a “member” — but he can very well “be” one (at least in his own mind) as a part of a philosophy or an idea (more like a conglomeration of philosophies, I think).
You can hear “themes” running through the little bit that we’ve heard from him. I would like to get the entire and unedited video, along with the complete “manifesto” and see exactly what he said.
I get tired of explaining myself to lazy people looking to defend their prejudices.
You said — “Sometimes the hardest thing for some people to accept is that which is the simplest: ONE.......LONE.......NUT”
Oh, I think that’s right and that’s what I’ve been saying all along. I’ve even been saying that to the FReepers, here on this board, who keep insisting that the authorities are “covering up” Cho’s Islamic terrorist connections. I don’t think so. I think he was really whacked out and a complete nutjob.
But, that doesn’t mean that he is not *using* all sorts of different material from different sources to justifying his perceived “injustices”. And he’s using these ideas and philosophies in a really mixed up way and then he puts it all together in his “manifesto.” And with that done — he proceeds to kill as many students as he can. That’s what he has done. So, this information is relevant and it is pertinent.
You asked — “Star Traveler- what part of the galaxy are you in at the moment?”
Well, I’m certainly not in Cho’s part of the galaxy, and he’s the one that wrote it...
You said — “Just heard from Fox &FRiends that he was suspended for a month in middle school for having a hit list.”
Ahhh..., so he’s been working on these ideas for a very long time. This guy has been “stewing” like a pressure cooker and he finally goes off, just before his last year at Virginia Tech....
A decade ago, I spent a lot of time online debating nazis. It lost its charm after a while. But if I wanted to mimic their rhetoric, it wouldn't take any effort -- and even without that history, if I wanted to hit some of their high points, it would only take a few minutes at Stormfront.org to suss out the memes. It isn't as if there's anything clever or complicated there.
You said — “Your “88” reference sounds very reasonable. Unless there is some real address “88”, I would think you are correct with it.”
Well, it’s not something that I’m trying to “put in there” on my own. It’s something that he wrote down. So, you have to ask, “What on earth does he mean by that?” And so, this is one thing that it could mean.
.
And you also said — “But that doesn’t make Cho anything. Cho was living out delusions in his own sick mind. That he picked up bits and pieces of equally insane ideas — Isamil, 88, the poses — and finally the murders, from hither and yon is to be expected. No conspiracy needed.”
No, this information given here was not meant to indicate a conspiracy. I mean, there are FReepers, right now as I write this, who are (and have been) posting that Cho had to have Islamic terrorist connections. They are convinced of those connections. But, I’ve argued against that on thread after thread. I don’t think so.
And likewise, I don’t think he has a connection to some Neo-Nazi group, either. BUT, he *does* apparently have *ideas* which *he, himself* links up to the philosophy of the Neo-Nazis, because he’s using symbolism related to it. And he’s had a long time to pore over the Internet and search out all sorts of hate literature, like from the Neo-Nazis.
So, this is a connection in his own twisted mind — and not a connection that exists in the “real world” with real people. Mind you, he had an “imaginary girlfriend” too (what his dorm-mate said). So, he was probably a “Neo-Nazi” in his imaginary life...
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Finally — “Cho was too much a loner, too pathologically shy — to have joined any organization no matter how loony. JMO.”
Oh, I think you’re exactly right there. But, he — in his own mind — links himself up to various ideas and “groups”, even though it’s not real in a normal sense, the way it is for you and me. It’s his “imaginary” connection, you see.
You said — “Yeah, he was one lone nut, still he “meant” something with that odd return address. Maybe 88 keys on a piano? He liked Chopin?”
Well, if he mentioned that in his manifesto, perhaps. But, I doubt he mentioned that particular thing. But, he does have themes in his videos (that I’ve seen so far) that indicate a possible connection (in his mind, though) with the Neo-Nazis.
However, he’s not rational at all (of course not...), so he’s got a “mish-mash” of philosophies and ideas and you’re not going to get something very coherent. You wouldn’t expect to — not with someone who thinks that killing all those students is the right thing to do, plus blaming all of us for his perceived problems....
It just doesn’t have enough “pizzaz to make it as a “mass murderer”.... sorry, just won’t cut it...
yes.
BTW, something you didn’t mention, perhaps you didn’t see it, but in his NBC pdf doc, he writes in large figures on a half-page, the number “88” and over it, “the number of revolution” or something to that effect IIRC.
You said — “Now hate can justify itself nicely combining nazism with islam. Two “religions” where everyone but you is to blame for being an loser. Hence Ismail Ax and 88 revol”
Very true, and he had a lot of hate. He was apparently looking for philosophies and justifications for this hate — and for his planned actions. These things gave him the “overt justification” and he wanted to let the world know it.
However, his ideas don’t form a “coherent philosophy” so they really won’t make a lot of sense, as you can see from his manifesto...
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