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F-22 Raptor attractive to Japan as missile threats grow
Aerospace Daily and Defense Report ^ | Apr 20, 2007 | David A. Fulghum

Posted on 04/20/2007 9:12:57 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki

F-22 attractive to Japan as missile threats grow

Apr 20, 2007

David A. Fulghum/Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Japanese military officials are eyeing the F-22 Raptor as an antidote to growing regional missile threats, Aviation Week & Space Technology will report on April 23.

The Lockheed Martin-built fighter is expected to become a key element in missile defense because it can detect and destroy small cruise missiles and also evade sophisticated air defenses to bomb ballistic missile launch sites. Whether Japanese law might be interpreted to allow the country's Self Defense Force to use the bombing to defend against ballistic missiles is still an open question.

Japanese military officials are quietly but firmly making it known they want the U.S. to release the F-22 to compete for its air force's F-X fighter program, and that they are adamant in wanting to field the most advanced air combat technology available.

Tokyo wants a stealthy fighter equipped with an active electronically scanned radar for cruise missile detection and wideband data links to push additional information into Japan's increasingly sophisticated air defense system - a package offered, for the moment, only by the F-22.

"I'm aware the Japanese are interested in the F-22," Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said last week in response to an Aviation Week question. "I'm also aware of our concerns about what we export and don't export of our high technologies. The Japanese are very close friends. We're committed to protecting Japan, so we'll work our way through it. We all need to be concerned about both ballistic and cruise missile defense. It's something that we...need to work on."

However, Congress is demanding oversight and approval of any plan for foreign sale of the stealth fighter, and active marketing of the aircraft is prohibited. The U.S. has been trying to pitch either an upgrade of in-service designs (such as F/A-18E/Fs or F-15Es equipped with advanced, small-target, long-range radars) or the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for the F-X program. The primary driver for the F-X requirement remains air superiority - which includes cruise missile defense - for which Tokyo wants the F-22 made available.

Release of the F-22 is becoming a point of pride with the Japanese, who provide the U.S. forward bases in the region as well as dispersal and rapid deployment options in case of a military confrontation or natural disaster in the region, U.S. officials say.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Japan; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; armsbuildup; china; f22; f22raptor; japan; jmsdaf; jmsdf; lockheedmartin; raptor
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1 posted on 04/20/2007 9:12:59 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Japan should be allowed to buy these.


2 posted on 04/20/2007 9:15:24 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The Japanese are very close friends. We're committed to protecting Japan, so we'll work our way through it. We all need to be concerned about both ballistic and cruise missile defense

Some sort of amicable deal will be worked out I'm sure.
3 posted on 04/20/2007 9:19:04 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: Anti-Bubba182

F-22s to Japan

By Bill Gertz
April 20, 2007

Japan wants to purchase up to 100 of the Air Force’s ultramodern F-22 warplanes, and the subject is expected to be on the agenda of the meeting next week between President Bush and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.

Pro-China officials in the Bush administration are working against the sale of the advanced warplane, which has stealth characteristics and is expected to bring harsh criticism from China, which views Japan’s more internationalist military posture as a threat.

The F-22 sale to Japan is favored by conservatives who say Japan, the closest U.S. ally in Asia, needs the warplanes to counter threats from both North Korea, where missiles could be pre-emptively attacked before launch, and China, which is building up forces opposite Taiwan, where China has deployed about 900 missiles within range of the island.
“One hundred F-22s in hands of Japan could change the Taiwan balance of power for two decades,” said one official in favor of the estimated $30 billion sale. “The F-22 based in Okinawa could not only fight off [China’s People’s Liberation Army] air force but strike inside China; it is invisible to radar.”

An Air Force spokesman said sales of the jet to Japan would require changing a 1998 law that prohibits the Pentagon from selling any F-22s to a foreign government.

China scored a political victory last year when the Bush administration headed off a planned request by Taiwan to buy upgraded F-16 jets. As a result of production schedules, any future sales of F-16s will be delayed until 2011.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070419-114228-8449r_page2.htm


4 posted on 04/20/2007 9:20:03 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

They or anyone can buy a real flying F-22 right now:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1821014/posts


5 posted on 04/20/2007 9:20:32 PM PDT by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Here’s some great info:

http://www.jetplanes.co.uk/f22.html


6 posted on 04/20/2007 9:23:16 PM PDT by CyberAnt ("... first time in history the U.S. House has attempted to surrender via C-SPAN TV ...")
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To: Anti-Bubba182

Agreed..


7 posted on 04/20/2007 9:23:19 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Anti-Bubba182
Japan should be allowed to buy these.

No way, the F-22 is stealth, we should not allow that technology to be sold to anyone, we would lose control and risk it being leaked or stolen....unless Hillary gets elected, then screw it, put it on e-bay so we can at least make some money off it before she gives it away.

8 posted on 04/20/2007 9:33:54 PM PDT by txroadkill
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Gratuitous Raptor porn:


9 posted on 04/20/2007 9:41:12 PM PDT by OwenKellogg
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To: OwenKellogg

Notice the sign by the ropes?

USE OF DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED


10 posted on 04/20/2007 9:51:09 PM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (Communism is legalized corruption by the elite.)
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To: kinoxi

Japan is also the #2 contributor to the United Nations....and they don’t even sit on the Security Council.


11 posted on 04/20/2007 9:56:35 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Countdown = A documentary on Keith Olberman's dwindling ratings.)
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To: EQAndyBuzz

There were a lot of armed security police. They only let a few inside the perimeter rope at any one time. I was really shocked to be able to touch the Raptor, but I couldn’t take photos inside the perimeter rope.


12 posted on 04/20/2007 9:58:32 PM PDT by OwenKellogg
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To: Loud Mime

They should sit there considering what they contribute IMO.


13 posted on 04/20/2007 9:58:38 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: EQAndyBuzz
USE OF DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED

Notice they printed that in Chinese as well?

14 posted on 04/20/2007 10:04:26 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Killing all of your enemies without mercy is the only sure way of sleeping soundly at night.)
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To: txroadkill

I agree. There are tons of ways to work with the Japanese and integrate our forces and technologies. The F-22 happens to be a plum. But it can wait.

Moreover, Japan has its shares of spies and turncoats. Sell them some F-22 and get ready for the following news headlines sometime around 2009. NEWSFLASH: Japanese bought F-22 stolen and flown to China. Negotiations underway.

After the Japanese have had their shot at reverse engineering the F-22, the Chinese will get theirs.


15 posted on 04/20/2007 10:06:07 PM PDT by bioqubit (bioqubit, conformity - such a common deformity)
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To: Centurion2000
Japanese. This was at Kadena AB, Okinawa. (I think the Japanese and Chinese kanji are interchangeable, though)
16 posted on 04/20/2007 10:13:19 PM PDT by OwenKellogg
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Congress has cut our planned procurement repeatedly, it now stands at roughly 180 aircraft. With each cut, production is less efficient, the cost per unit goes up, Congress sees it, and they cut still further

Selling a couple squadrons to strong allies like Australia and Japan would decrease unit cost considerably so we should be able to buy more ourselves.

That’s a win across the board.


17 posted on 04/20/2007 10:19:02 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: Centurion2000; EQAndyBuzz
<
18 posted on 04/20/2007 10:20:08 PM PDT by OwenKellogg
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To: txroadkill
No way, the F-22 is stealth, we should not allow that technology to be sold to anyone, we would lose control and risk it being leaked or stolen....unless Hillary gets elected, then screw it, put it on e-bay so we can at least make some money off it before she gives it away.

We have to consider this carefully. The strategic value of beefing up the Japanese Air Defense Force to counter the rising power of China needs to be considered. Without a clear balancing power in the region China will likely be more dominant in Asia which is likely to hurt our interests.

At the same time, our stealth technology is quite an investment. Any foreign power (including Japan and Israel) could easily compromise our technology. And with the growing industrial might of China, they will soon be able to fund a military as large as our own. Losing key pieces of technology would mean that they wouldn't have to fund the expensive R&D like we do.

It is a tough decision. I am leaning towards selling to Japan but only with strict technology assurances and increased security. If we fail to counterbalance China we may never get another chance to do so. And the second half of the 21st century might have China as the major superpower potentially with India under its wing. In a second Cold War, we wouldn't be even remotely close to being able to compete militarily. As long as Asian countries do not form a type of Warsaw pact-like alliance, China will not likely ever be more powerful than the US and the EU.

19 posted on 04/20/2007 11:32:48 PM PDT by burzum (Despair not! I shall inspire you by charging blindly on!--Minsc, BG2)
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To: txroadkill

The JSF/F-35 will be stealthy. It is an American/British project. Italy, Australia and a number of other countries want to buy these to replace aging F-16s.


20 posted on 04/21/2007 12:37:06 AM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: burzum
I tend to agree.
If we build the planes and US contractors oversee key maintenance then security is maintained.
We need 300 of these. If Japan wants 100, great. If australia and Israel want 24-50, so much the better. We are going to be fighting Islamists for generations. We need Japan and Australia to have stealth strike capability. And we could use help defending Taiwan.
21 posted on 04/21/2007 12:42:13 AM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: rmlew

This was the whole F’ing point of the F-35/JSF. These guys were all supposed to get in line behind it and fund it. Now they all see what the Raptor can do and they salivate and say, no no no...I want THAT! No Japan/eveyone else you buy F-35s because you wanted a multi purpose fighter to better suite your needs.
At 250 million+ a plane no one else will be able to afford f-22 anyway.


22 posted on 04/21/2007 12:51:39 AM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: miliantnutcase
1. The F-22 does not cost $250 million to produce. The marginal cost is under 150 million. That makes it competitive with the F-15K.
2. Japan can afford to spend 25 billion. Its GDP is 6 Trillion.
23 posted on 04/21/2007 12:57:30 AM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I’m torn by this. I want Japan to be a democratic buffer against china and I know they are one of our closest allies. However, I also know that they are thousands of chinese spies in Japan just waiting to rip our F-22 tech off and send it home to the commies. I wish they would just settle for the F-35,EF, or beefed up F-15’s. We need air dominance and a small leak can change the ballgame.


24 posted on 04/21/2007 4:28:56 AM PDT by MARKUSPRIME
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To: MARKUSPRIME

The alternatives you mentioned give Japan atmost minimial superiority-not overwhelming superiority which is the difference between deterrence & war.

Here’s another way out-Increase the USAF’s quota of F-22s & send atleast 100 to bases in the Far East.Oops,but the US government is trying it’s best to cut existing numbers.On the other hand,if Japan buys 100 Raptors(even downgraded ones),costs will come down & the USAF buys more.Japan manufactures lot of cutting edge technology itself-they had their own AESA radar programme for their F-2 fighter even before US fighters received theirs.


25 posted on 04/21/2007 4:33:37 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I agree but we know how china is. Thats a threat I hope the US isnt willing to take. The EF or super F-15 would be all Japan really needs.


26 posted on 04/21/2007 4:42:13 AM PDT by MARKUSPRIME
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I have no problem with Japan, Austriala, and Isreal buying these fighters foir 2 reasons:

1. They are allies in dangerous ares who need the best to keep the peace and to defend themselves.

2. The more we make the lower the unit cost adn teh more we can buy for our needs.


27 posted on 04/21/2007 4:45:01 AM PDT by Hydroshock (Duncan Hunter For President, checkout gohunter08.com.)
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To: MARKUSPRIME

Japan needs to replace their F-4 flight first & in a couple of years,their Eagles too.They will need the Raptor to get the kind of protection they have enjoyed.& Frankly,they of most allies deserve it.


28 posted on 04/21/2007 4:45:48 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Hydroshock

I don’t know about Australia.For one,they have never operated the cutting edge in US technology & with their current level of spending,they cannot afford more than 20
F-22s,which is frankly too limited.


29 posted on 04/21/2007 4:47:47 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Maybe so maybe not, if Japan places a large order. I figure they would order at least 60 if not over 100, then hte unit cost will drop a great deal.


30 posted on 04/21/2007 4:57:05 AM PDT by Hydroshock (Duncan Hunter For President, checkout gohunter08.com.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
It’s really a shame the F-35 is such a dog, though perhaps it will turn into something decent. I’m not yet ready to sell the F-22 to other governments just yet, though at some point in the future we should. I would rather sell the Japanese and the Australians an ultra modern F-15 tailored to their needs as an interim solution.
31 posted on 04/21/2007 6:29:39 AM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: Anti-Bubba182
NO ONE outside the US should have access to the F-22. They Japanese can buy the inferior Euro fighter. I don’t care about treaties and all the friendship crap. The F-22’s secret are to valuable.
32 posted on 04/21/2007 6:35:46 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (NSDQ)
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To: OwenKellogg; Centurion2000
"I think the Japanese and Chinese kanji are interchangeable, though"

Well, the characters are, but since the fall of the Han Dynasty almost 2,000 years ago, their usage and meaning has changed greatly. Some of the text seems to be in Katakana, as well, but it's too small and blurry to read.

I would love to see my country buy these. I understand the security risks from espionage, but the United States, with it's open-door policies regarding foreign workers in key positions is more apt to have leaks than Japan. We have no "Bill of Rights" in our national law; not that I know of anyway.

From what I have read here, Japan is still very interested in the JSF for naval operations and the like. The main appeal of the F-22 is, as the article states, for interdiction of cruise missles and destruction of launch sites, which China has in great number all along it's coastline. If and when China starts to move agressively in this region to expand it's influence via military means, which many people here see as inevitable, you know that will be be right at the side of the U.S. in countering this agression. And when that time comes we are going to need the best tools we can get, because we will be vastly outnumbered.

33 posted on 04/21/2007 6:38:06 AM PDT by Gantz (Th4+'5 th3 +h30ry, 4nyw4yz.)
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To: Anti-Bubba182
"Japan should be allowed to buy these."

Did not Japan sell advances sub propeller technology to the Chicoms? Chicoms subs used to be loud and slow, now with help from Japan they are quite and fast. I like Japan but we can't afford to let our best technology go to the Chicoms.

34 posted on 04/21/2007 6:48:59 AM PDT by jpsb
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To: jpsb

Toshiba. Never forget. I won’t buy anything from them.


35 posted on 04/21/2007 7:01:53 AM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: jpsb

I think it was to the Russians, not the Chicoms.


36 posted on 04/21/2007 7:02:49 AM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Am I the only one that remember Toshiba selling advanced machine tools to the Soviets that allowed them to produce much quiter sub props?


37 posted on 04/21/2007 7:06:25 AM PDT by LuisTiant
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To: LuisTiant

Nope at least three of us remember. I thought it was to the Chicoms not the Russians.


38 posted on 04/21/2007 7:11:12 AM PDT by jpsb
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To: jpsb
On May 27 1987 the Japanese police arrested two senior executives of Toshiba Machine, who had been in charge of designing and exporting machine tools to the Soviet Union, for selling four nine-axis in 1982-1984 and 4 five-axis milling machines in 1984 to the Soviets, in violation of COCOM provisions.
39 posted on 04/21/2007 8:00:42 AM PDT by GBA (God Bless America!)
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To: Anti-Bubba182
Japan has a long history of building their US design fighters under license. I'm sure we won't allow Japan to build Rapters under license, and without the domestic recirculation of the procurement money to their own industries, I'm not sure Japan will want to buy them.

Japan really should want an F-15K with AESA radar. They have an F-15 line already, so it wouldn't be insurmountable to change over to building F-15E airframes.

However, since the Japanese have had the F-15 since the 1970s, they view the F-15K as "old technology."

40 posted on 04/21/2007 8:10:19 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: rmlew
. The F-22 does not cost $250 million to produce. The marginal cost is under 150 million. That makes it competitive with the F-15K.

It would be asinine to sell the F-22 at only the unit cost this early in the production life. There is over $60 billion in development costs to amortize over the number of units produced. If Australia, Japan, and Israel want to purchase the F-22, they will have to eat part of the development costs as well.

41 posted on 04/21/2007 8:25:48 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The F-111C was not cutting edge technology when they bought into the program in 1963?

The (A)F/A-18A was not cutting edge technology when they bought into the program in 1983?

The F-35 wasn't cutting edge technology when they committed to buying them in 2006?

The Aussie's problem is they jump into the bleeding edge of new weapon platform during the design phase, then when the original promised delivery gets pushed back they're left with a coverage gap. It happened with the F-111C, where they had to lease F-4s until the F-111C was ready, and it's happening with the F-35A, where they're leasing F/A-18Fs until the F-35 is ready.

Once they buy an aircraft, however, they'll fly it forever. However, they are big believers in upgrade programs, and the F-111Cs were at just about F-111F avionics standards. Their (A)F/A-18As have been AUPed to the C/D avionics level.

42 posted on 04/21/2007 8:39:34 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: sukhoi-30mki; MARKUSPRIME
I'm with Mike on this. F-15Ks, AESA radar with sea-search mode, uprated engines, and modern missiles will be more than enough to replace their aging 30 year old F-15Js.

The F-35s will be able to data share with the F-15Ks, the F-35s will give them the first strike stealth they may need if they ever fully abandon their defense-only doctrine (if they haven't already) and we will have F-22s based in Japan anyway, if the F-22 is really needed for certain missions.

Same goes for the Aussies. If they want to operate a heavy fighter, they should have gone for the F-15K instead of the F/A-18F.

If Japan and Australia really wants the F-22, they're going to have to wait another decade or so, when it will be "safe" to export the technology.

43 posted on 04/21/2007 8:52:12 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: sukhoi-30mki; Jeff Head; Travis McGee; JohnHuang2; Alamo-Girl
Congress is demanding oversight and approval of any plan for foreign sale of the stealth fighter, and active marketing of the aircraft is prohibited

Good. After the Japanese Navy just compromised the Aegis anti-missile system to Chi-Comm espionage, we need to be extra-cautious with the remaining few secrets left. Those that haven't yet been stolen by the Chinese Communists. We need to frankly insist on this point. Operational security requires it.

Anyways, the Japanese likely would insist on getting "co-production rights" just like they did with the F-15, and since we never even got the benefit of any real production economies from a wasteful production-shy set of administrations who then used the cost-increases incurred by their production cutbacks...to justify still further cutbacks in F-22 production! A never-ending spiral leading to zero production. And Rumsfeld ordered the production to end arbitrarily at the end of this very year.

Meanwhile, if the Japs want to bomb N.Korea, sell them our now-retired F-117s.

44 posted on 04/21/2007 10:13:51 AM PDT by Paul Ross (Ronald Reagan-1987:"We are always willing to be trade partners but never trade patsies.")
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To: jpsb
I like Japan but we can't afford to let our best technology go to the Chicoms.

Bump!

45 posted on 04/21/2007 10:15:24 AM PDT by Paul Ross (Ronald Reagan-1987:"We are always willing to be trade partners but never trade patsies.")
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The Japanese Mafia(government) owning 100 F-22's is scary..
Almost as scary as Hitlery Clinton selling the Chinese F-22 technology WHICH WILL HAPPEN..
46 posted on 04/21/2007 10:40:56 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Why would tey want the F22 when they have the plans for

the VF-11 Thunderbolt

The VF-19

or even the

G-Shadow.

All just as likely as the JSDF Air Force getting any F22s anytime soon.


47 posted on 04/21/2007 10:45:47 AM PDT by ASOC (Yeah, well, maybe - but can you *prove* it?)
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To: rmlew

The point is you mark the plane up if you export it to allied countries for a profit. And I hope this doesn’t go through, nobody should have access to Raptor technology.


48 posted on 04/21/2007 4:21:26 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: Paul Ross

Thanks for the ping!


49 posted on 04/21/2007 8:53:02 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: GBA
Toshiba. Never forget. I won’t buy anything from them.

Toshiba sold the computers and software to the USSR. IIRC a German Co. sold them the machines to couple to the Computers.

It allowed the USSR to cut sub propellers that didn't cavitate, making their subs very much quieter.

That was during the Reagan Admin.
I never understood why Pres. Reagan didn't lift their import license.

I too have not and will not buy any Toshiba product.

50 posted on 04/21/2007 9:24:49 PM PDT by Vinnie (You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Jihads You)
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