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St. Louis archbishop tangles with Sheryl Crow [over abortion]
Reuters ^ | April 26, 2007

Posted on 04/26/2007 11:58:29 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Calling Sheryl Crow "a high profile proponent of the destruction of innocent lives," the Roman Catholic archbishop of St. Louis resigned as head of a children's medical charity that featured the singer for a benefit concert.

Archbishop Raymond Burke resigned as chairman of the Cardinal Glennon Children's Foundation after its board of governors refused to pull the plug on Crow's Saturday concert in St. Louis.

She is "well-known as an abortion activist" and proponent of stem cell research, he said in a statement on Wednesday, and her appearance is "an affront to the identity and mission of the medical center, dedicated as it is to the service of life and Christ's healing mission."

Burke's conservative views are well known. He suggested during the 2004 presidential campaign that Democratic candidate John Kerry, a Catholic, should be denied communion because of his views on abortion.

"When, for economic gain, a Catholic institution associates itself with such a high profile proponent of the destruction of innocent lives, members of the church and other people of good will have the right to be confirmed in their commitment to the gospel of life," he added.

A fact sheet distributed by the archdiocese said Crow's views amount to "giving scandal," which it said the Catholic Catechism defines as "an attitude or behavior which leads another to evil."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; US: Missouri
KEYWORDS: abortion; bishopraymondburke; catholicchurch; catholics; johnkerry; medicine; moonbats; onesquarerule; proabortion; sherylcrow; stemcellresearch
Good for him!
1 posted on 04/26/2007 11:58:35 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Plus, she’s just dirty.


2 posted on 04/26/2007 12:03:18 PM PDT by Thrusher ("There is no peace without victory.")
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

She’s having a bad week, me thinks.


3 posted on 04/26/2007 12:03:32 PM PDT by llevrok (Do cats have belly buttons?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; maggief; indylindy

LOL! I thought perhaps the Archbishop was tangling with her over the proper use of toilet paper!


4 posted on 04/26/2007 12:05:06 PM PDT by TommyDale ("Can debate over four hours with no need to call a doctor!")
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To: llevrok

Why is it that the same people who are so concerned about global warming are also in favor of abortion, stem cell research using embyronic cells, and also favor homosexual marriage?


5 posted on 04/26/2007 12:06:14 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: 2ndDivisionVet

You go, Your Eminence!


7 posted on 04/26/2007 12:07:44 PM PDT by Let's Roll (As usual, following a shooting spree, libs want to take guns away from those who DIDN'T do it.)
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To: Dilbert San Diego
Why is it that the same people who are so concerned about global warming are also in favor of abortion, stem cell research using embyronic cells, and also favor homosexual marriage?

Why? Why, you ask?

because they are all NUTS

8 posted on 04/26/2007 12:08:59 PM PDT by llevrok (Do cats have belly buttons?)
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To: TommyDale
LOL! I thought perhaps the Archbishop was tangling with her over the proper use of toilet paper!

This is one I daresay, where the Pope just wouldn't care to clean up her mind or body.

9 posted on 04/26/2007 12:09:18 PM PDT by dforest (Fighting the new liberal Conservatism. The Left foot in the GOP door.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

He probably did’nt like her “one sheet” theory either...


10 posted on 04/26/2007 12:09:22 PM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: Dilbert San Diego

These are also the folks who favor legalized grass.


11 posted on 04/26/2007 12:09:53 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Hooray for this Catholic leader who actually stands up for Catholic doctrine. Way to go Archbishop Burke. He also described his decision as painful. “I have to answer to God for the responsibilities which I have as archbishop. For me to remain silent in this situation would be the gravest scandal because people would get the impression that their spiritual leader also thinks this is just fine.”

Too, bad other Catholic prelates don’t have the guts of their religious beliefs. If they would lead as firmly as Archbishop Burke, maybe our society would get back to some traditional values once again. Right now it looks like most religious leaders have abandoned moral values for a place at the media celebrity table.


12 posted on 04/26/2007 12:11:42 PM PDT by conservative blonde (Let's call the Jr. Senator from Illinois by his full name, Barack Hussein Obama)
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To: pepsionice

True. The point is, there is no connection between abortion and global warming, for example. There is no connection between same sex marriage and abortion. Yet so many of the same people who are on the liberal side of one issue are on the liberal side of other issues too.


13 posted on 04/26/2007 12:13:33 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Backbone !


14 posted on 04/26/2007 12:16:08 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

Why is it that the same people who are so concerned about global warming are also in favor of abortion, stem cell research using embyronic cells, and also favor homosexual marriage?


Because they are fools and freaks.


15 posted on 04/26/2007 12:19:02 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

Has Rosie O’Donnell weighed in on this issue yet? She’s so concerned that abortion remain a secular sacrament to our modern advanced culture that has respect for the women’s movement.


16 posted on 04/26/2007 12:19:04 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Maybe Sheryl Crow should just STFU and sing.

Think?

17 posted on 04/26/2007 12:19:29 PM PDT by TexasCajun
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Someone at her next concert stop should set up this sign:

“BUY YOUR TOILET PAPER CREDITS HERE!”

“For every $1 you give me, I'll use one less square of TP.”

18 posted on 04/26/2007 12:19:31 PM PDT by Scourge of God (Remember, liberals, 'baaa' means NO!)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

She needn’t worry...


19 posted on 04/26/2007 12:20:02 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

Because they are Communists, that’s why.


20 posted on 04/26/2007 12:23:24 PM PDT by steve8714
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Yea! He had the moral courage of his convections. Thank you Archbishop Burke for not prostituting yourself for some lunatic, leftist cash cow!
21 posted on 04/26/2007 12:25:27 PM PDT by Bitsy
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To: Dilbert San Diego

Because they think thay the world’s major problem is too many people. Baby poo causes global warming.


22 posted on 04/26/2007 12:26:24 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Scourge of God

I propose to send Sheryl all my unused 1-ply that I refuse to use as my TP offset so I can wipe my ass guilt free.


23 posted on 04/26/2007 12:29:02 PM PDT by TexasCajun
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To: TexasCajun

Let’s all do this...

Ten tons of 1-ply would be fun to deal with!


24 posted on 04/26/2007 12:35:33 PM PDT by Scourge of God (Remember, liberals, 'baaa' means NO!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

God bless him. We need more Bishops to stand up for the Church. Maybe this will move some of them.


25 posted on 04/26/2007 12:41:34 PM PDT by jmaroneps37 (The Islamists plans to kill us and the Democrats are helping them.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

looks like the archbishop just ensured sheryl crow will be winning grammy awards for the foreseeable future

if she films a movie, she’s a shoe-in for an oscar

hell, maybe even the nobel peace prize


26 posted on 04/26/2007 12:43:10 PM PDT by Enduring Freedom (my axis of evil includes democrats and liberal media)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Good to see Archbishop Burke do something useful with his time, like fighting poo-flingers like Sheryl Crow, instead of trying to shake down St. Stanislaus for money.


27 posted on 04/26/2007 1:05:56 PM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

About time an RC official showed some guts.


28 posted on 04/26/2007 1:11:20 PM PDT by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: jmaroneps37

Agreed!


29 posted on 04/26/2007 1:15:01 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I hope he washed with a good antibacterial soap when he was done.


30 posted on 04/26/2007 1:23:13 PM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: Quick or Dead

Archbishop Burke never tried to shake down St. Stan’s and even told them SPECIFICALLY their money would stay their money. The parish was operating against canon law, now it is simply schismatic. Case closed.


31 posted on 04/26/2007 1:40:09 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
AMEN>

Just as an added question, how in the world can it be anything but hypocritical to promote protecting the environment, and all the “endangered animals” (who aren’t endangered) and at the same time, slaughter innocent babies???

32 posted on 04/26/2007 1:43:05 PM PDT by gidget7 (2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Well, as I live and breathe. Finally a cleric who stands firm for something. Nice surprise.


33 posted on 04/26/2007 1:43:10 PM PDT by hardworking (Giving an accused rapist a third and fourth term is just being properly PC.)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

Why is it that the same people who are so concerned about global warming are also in favor of abortion, stem cell research using embyronic cells

My theory is that they somehow think THEY are going to beat the system and live forever. I honestly don’t think it ever occurs to them that they ARE going to die, probably within the same average life expectancy range, as everyone else.


34 posted on 04/26/2007 1:45:01 PM PDT by hardworking (Giving an accused rapist a third and fourth term is just being properly PC.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

ya know, as it turns out Sheryl Crow is just another horse head


35 posted on 04/26/2007 1:47:38 PM PDT by advertising guy (If computer skills named us, I'd be back-space delete.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

A clergyman of honor, courage, character and principle - in short, the kind of cleric the Catholic Church and “mainstream” Protestant churches need more of.


36 posted on 04/26/2007 1:51:06 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: vladimir998

Oh their assets would stay there, in the hands of a priest appointed by Burke himself. While that is the canonical norm, no Archbishop since Ritter has pressed St. Stanislaus Kostka on the issue. Burke’s reorganization plan for the churches in south city, the permanent transferrence of the Polish mission from St. Stanislaus to St. Agatha, and the 8 acres and $9 million in property in dispute lead me to believe, and I could be entirely wrong about it, that Raymond Burke’s motives are not entirely based in enforcing ecclesiastical orthodoxy.


37 posted on 04/26/2007 2:27:12 PM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: Quick or Dead

You wrote:

“Oh their assets would stay there, in the hands of a priest appointed by Burke himself.”

Yeah, that’s called C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C-I-S-M. That’s how Catholics do it: the bishop is appointed, and he appoints those in his diocese who run parishes.

“While that is the canonical norm, no Archbishop since Ritter has pressed St. Stanislaus Kostka on the issue.”

Just because every other archbishop turned out to not want to follow canon law doesn’t mean Burke should be attacked as if he wanted to steal St. Stan’s money. That’s basically your argument here. No other archbishop pressed St. Stan’s to do the right thing, so, because Burke did, he must actually be a thief. Sorry, but that makes no sense.

“Burke’s reorganization plan for the churches in south city, the permanent transferrence of the Polish mission from St. Stanislaus to St. Agatha, and the 8 acres and $9 million in property in dispute lead me to believe, and I could be entirely wrong about it, that Raymond Burke’s motives are not entirely based in enforcing ecclesiastical orthodoxy.”

One thing you are right: You are entirely wrong about this.

I have had the pleasure of knowing Archbishop Burke personally. The man is one of the most humble and devout Catholics I have ever met.


38 posted on 04/26/2007 5:18:16 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Interesting. I thought Catholicism was about the profession of faith, the liturgy, the commandments, and the Lord's prayer. But thanks for clearing that up, as it's really about who gets to wear the big pants. Or the big hat in the case of the RCC.

No other Archbishop ever went after St. Stanislaus because no Archbishop paid them much attention. For roughly 100 years, St. Stan has been left to its own devices, when the church burned in the 20s, when it was falling apart, and when the parishoners on their own money renovated the place and acquired the land around it. Only after nearly a century of hands off policy, and only 9 million dollars and 8 acres later does the Archdiocese decide that St. Stanislaus needs to be brought under control. If you think my argument is that because no other Archbishop "enforced" canon law on St. Stanislaus makes Raymond Burke a thief, then you are sorely mistaken. What I find objectionable is Raymond Burke, and the Archdioscese of St. Louis, after nearly a century of neglect, come waving canon law at St. Stanislaus Kostka and demanding their due and proper in a manner worthy of an absentee landlord.

From the historical perspective, what Burke has done thus far isn't that different from George III and Parliament, who had British law on their side in demanding the American colonists submission the matter of taxation, who had since around 1600, been left to their own devices.

Raymond Burke can be as righteous, saintly and humble as he wants to be, but at the end of the day, essentially seizing the fruits of others labor and depriving them of self-determination, whether it is the "right" of a King or the authority of the leader of the Archodioscese in communion with Rome, doesn't make it any more righteous or acceptable than what it is. A power grab on people who have prospered in spite of the Archdioscese, not because of it.

39 posted on 04/26/2007 6:40:40 PM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: Quick or Dead

You wrote:

“Interesting. I thought Catholicism was about the profession of faith, the liturgy, the commandments, and the Lord’s prayer. But thanks for clearing that up, as it’s really about who gets to wear the big pants. Or the big hat in the case of the RCC.”

Wow, you really are poorly catechized aren’t you? The profession of faith is made in union with the BISHOP as the visible sign of unity withing the Church, the liturgy is celebrated with the permission of the BISHOP, the commandments are taught by the BISHOP, and discipline for those who violate them starts at the BISHOP’S office.

“No other Archbishop ever went after St. Stanislaus because no Archbishop paid them much attention.”

So Burke pays attention to details? How is that bad?

“For roughly 100 years, St. Stan has been left to its own devices, when the church burned in the 20s, when it was falling apart, and when the parishoners on their own money renovated the place and acquired the land around it.”

Gee, pretty story. Tell another. It’s irrelevant in any case. It doesn’t matter what St, Stan’s 70 years ago. If it wants to be Catholic it has to be in accordance with canon law NOW not a hundred years ago. Is that really that hard to understand?

“Only after nearly a century of hands off policy, and only 9 million dollars and 8 acres later does the Archdiocese decide that St. Stanislaus needs to be brought under control.”

That’s not true. Several Archbishops already knew the problem, but did nothing. Burke is not the kind of man to ignore the elephant in the room.

“If you think my argument is that because no other Archbishop “enforced” canon law on St. Stanislaus makes Raymond Burke a thief, then you are sorely mistaken.”

No, I am not only not mistaken, but you just made essentially the same argument.

“What I find objectionable is Raymond Burke, and the Archdioscese of St. Louis, after nearly a century of neglect, come waving canon law at St. Stanislaus Kostka and demanding their due and proper in a manner worthy of an absentee landlord.”

What you object to is meaningless. Are your feelings hurt over this? How about focusing on doing the right thing? Burke was right to enforce canon law. It’s just taht simple.

“From the historical perspective, what Burke has done thus far isn’t that different from George III and Parliament, who had British law on their side in demanding the American colonists submission the matter of taxation, who had since around 1600, been left to their own devices.”

Nonsense. First, stop pretending that St. Stan’s was left to its own devices. Who sent it its priests? The Archbishop of St. Louis - or didn’t you realize that?

“Raymond Burke can be as righteous, saintly and humble as he wants to be, but at the end of the day, essentially seizing the fruits of others labor and depriving them of self-determination, whether it is the “right” of a King or the authority of the leader of the Archodioscese in communion with Rome, doesn’t make it any more righteous or acceptable than what it is.”

Nonsense. No Catholic parish has a right of self-determination. Next you’ll be claiming that Christians actually have a right to sin rather than simply free will. All Catholic parishes in a diocese are under the auspices of the diocesan bishop. Don’t like it? It doesn’t matter.

“A power grab on people who have prospered in spite of the Archdioscese, not because of it.”

Because of it. There would be no parish there at all for the last 100 years if not for the archdiocese. No sacraments, no parish life, nothing. A parish without a priest is all but dead. A parish without the communion of a Catholic bishop is Protestant.


40 posted on 04/26/2007 7:00:02 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Apparently he pays very good attention to details when it comes claiming assets for the Archdioscese.

Speaking of things that have nothing to do with canon law, St. Stanislaus' property has nothing to do with canon law considering that the church was signed over to the St. Stanislaus Parish, Inc by Archbishop Peter Kendrick. So the property stopped being a matter of canon law about 120 years ago and became a matter of civil law when the corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish Inc. acquired the property from Archbishop Kendrick. This is also why Raymond Burke hasn't seen fit to pursue action in the court.

So they knew there was a "problem" and did nothing. Why? Because at the time, St. Stanislaus had no assets to liquidate. Seems like he's not only the type of man not to ignore an elephant, he's not the kind of man to pass up an opportunity to fill the Archdioscese's coffers.

Why would my feelings be hurt? I'm neither Catholic, nor Polish. Apparently that canon law is very important, so important in fact that every Archbishop of St. Louis but two since the founding and incorporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka has been elevated to the Cardinalate in spite of the "apostasy" of St. Stanislaus. Raymond Burke's claim of being "bound" by canon law is as flimsy as the notion that St. Stanislaus and it's property belong to the Archdioscese.

Wow, the Archbishop remembered to send them a priest. And when the roof was falling in in the 70s, where was the Archbishop then? How about when people were shooting at the church from Pruitt-Igoe? St. Stanislaus had nothing liquid, so the Archdioscese wasn't interested. So, pretty much left to their own devices.

Again, not really. Theft only takes place when one intends to deprive someone else of their property and succeeds in the act. Besides, it's not so much theft as it is extortion. Sign over your property or I'll take your priests. Sign over your property or I'll excommunicate you. Sign over your property or I'll shoot this dog. At least Jesse Jackson has a more realistic angle when he works his extortion rackets.

Of course you have a right to sin, just like you have the right to go to hell, if such is your wish. Even the great Augustine had trouble nailing down precisely where God's beautitude ends and Man's free will begins. But that's something altogether different. According to the First Plenary Council of Baltimore, laymen can administer church funds, with the bishop's approval, which they got when the church property was incorporated.

There would be no parish without the parishoners, just as a shepard isn't a shepard without a flock. St. Stanislaus was all but dead until the parishoners took it on themselves to bring it back to life. I will, however, concede one thing. One priest was helpful in St. Stanislaus' revival. Father Jakle who registered St. Stanislaus as a National Historic Site.

41 posted on 04/26/2007 11:20:59 PM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: Dilbert San Diego

because the darkside is giving them false priorities.


42 posted on 04/26/2007 11:25:42 PM PDT by fabian
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To: Quick or Dead

You wrote:

“Apparently he pays very good attention to details when it comes claiming assets for the Archdioscese.”

Burke pays attention to every detail, but didn’t do anything that by law should not have been done.

“Speaking of things that have nothing to do with canon law, St. Stanislaus’ property has nothing to do with canon law considering that the church was signed over to the St. Stanislaus Parish, Inc by Archbishop Peter Kendrick.”

Wrong again. St. Stan’s was a Catholic parish and was therefore ALWAYS subject to canon law no matter who owned the deed.

“So the property stopped being a matter of canon law about 120 years ago and became a matter of civil law when the corporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish Inc. acquired the property from Archbishop Kendrick.”

Incorrect again. You really have no idea of what you’re talking about. St. Stan’s was a Catholic parish and subject to canon law. There is no such thing as a Catholic parish that is NOT subject to Catholic canon law. Are you next going to claim that the parish was not subject to Catholic theology because it was incorporated?

“This is also why Raymond Burke hasn’t seen fit to pursue action in the court.”

Wrong again. St. Stan’s violated canon law and not civil law. That’s why Burke hasn’t pursued it in court. No matter what St. Stan’s standing in civil law was, however, it still had obligations to meet in regard to canon law.

“So they knew there was a “problem” and did nothing. Why? Because at the time, St. Stanislaus had no assets to liquidate. Seems like he’s not only the type of man not to ignore an elephant, he’s not the kind of man to pass up an opportunity to fill the Archdioscese’s coffers.”

Wrong again. Burke doesn’t need St. Stan’s money, and made clear promises that their money would be protected. Burke is known to be a man of his word. What poorly educated people like yourself don’t know, and don’t care to educate yourselves about is that Burke was the highest ranking American canon lawyer in history. He knows canon law inside and out, and felt obligated to bring St. Stan’s into compliance with the law. He had every right to do so. He was right to do it and no one was going to lose anything by it of any consequence if they value their faith.

“Why would my feelings be hurt? I’m neither Catholic, nor Polish.”

Nor very knowledgeable, nor very good at seeing the difference between one thing and another.

“Apparently that canon law is very important, so important in fact that every Archbishop of St. Louis but two since the founding and incorporation of St. Stanislaus Kostka has been elevated to the Cardinalate in spite of the “apostasy” of St. Stanislaus.”

Wrong again. There has been no apostasy at St. Stan’s. St. Stan’s is in an act of schism. Also, St. Louis’ archbishop being made a cardinal had nothing to do with St. Stan’s, little or nothing to do with the Archbishop and everything to do with what St. Louis once was as a Catholic city.

“Raymond Burke’s claim of being “bound” by canon law is as flimsy as the notion that St. Stanislaus and it’s property belong to the Archdioscese.”

Wrong again. As I just told you, Burke is the highest ranking American canon lawyer in history. As such he certainly does feel bound to follow the law.

“Wow, the Archbishop remembered to send them a priest. And when the roof was falling in in the 70s, where was the Archbishop then?”

Working as an archbishop and sending them their pastors. It is up to the people of the parish to upkeep the parish. It is up to the bishop to staff the parish church with a priest.

“How about when people were shooting at the church from Pruitt-Igoe?”

It is up to the police to police the streets, not the archbishop.

“St. Stanislaus had nothing liquid, so the Archdioscese wasn’t interested. So, pretty much left to their own devices.”

ST. Stan’s is in violation of canon law. It’s just that simple. It’s assets were not an issue as Burke attested to.

“Again, not really. Theft only takes place when one intends to deprive someone else of their property and succeeds in the act. Besides, it’s not so much theft as it is extortion. Sign over your property or I’ll take your priests. Sign over your property or I’ll excommunicate you. Sign over your property or I’ll shoot this dog. At least Jesse Jackson has a more realistic angle when he works his extortion rackets.”

There is no extortion. A parish that is openly disobedient to the shepherd of the diocese deserves no pastor. Your sanctimoniousness is laughable. Would you send someone to work in a place that was openly violating the laws that you yourself had to enforce? Of course you wouldn’t. That would be irrational wouldn’t it? So why would Burke continue to send a priest to a parish that was flouting canon laws that Burke was bound to enforce at the archbishop of the diocese?

“Of course you have a right to sin, just like you have the right to go to hell, if such is your wish.”

Wrong again. No one has a right to do evil. If you have a right to do evil then evil is right to do. We have free will. We have no right, whatsoever, to commit sinful actions. If we had a right to commit sinful actions then it wouldn’t be sinful, wouldn’t result in punishment and would need no redemption.

You seem to have great difficulty in thinking clearly.
“Even the great Augustine had trouble nailing down precisely where God’s beautitude ends and Man’s free will begins.”

He never had any difficulty is drawing the line against allowing free will to be interpreted as a license to commit evil actions. We simply have no right to commit evil.

“But that’s something altogether different. According to the First Plenary Council of Baltimore, laymen can administer church funds, with the bishop’s approval, which they got when the church property was incorporated.”

Irrelevant. The First Plenary Council of Baltimore is not the final say in canon law. St. Stan’s claimed to be a Catholic parish in the diocese of St. Louis. It is, therefore, subject to the archbishop of St. Louis and canon law. Again, you really have no idea of what you’re talking about.

“There would be no parish without the parishoners, just as a shepard isn’t a shepard without a flock. St. Stanislaus was all but dead until the parishoners took it on themselves to bring it back to life. I will, however, concede one thing. One priest was helpful in St. Stanislaus’ revival. Father Jakle who registered St. Stanislaus as a National Historic Site.”

And St. Stan’s was subject to canon law as a Catholic parish. Case closed. Burke is right. And you have no idea of what you’re talking about.


43 posted on 04/27/2007 3:44:48 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
I see from your sorry attempts to refute my argument throwing out the rather general and ambiguous "canon law" that none of your dear associate's humility and Christian devotion rubbed off on you.

As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that you don't know what "canon law" St. Stanislaus supposedly violated. St. Stanislaus neither defied his ecclesiastic authority nor did they incite "hatred" against the Holy See or the Ordinary (Burke). Burke's command was no more legitimate than if he had stopped a random Catholic in the street and demanded the deed to their house or be denied the sacraments. Not to mention any good American would frown on Ex Post Facto law, whether it came from Jefferson City, Washington D.C., or Rome.

I'm not to going to run through the rest because you repeat the same thing like a mantra. Canon law, canon law, and what's that, more canon law. No citation, reference, or proof. "Raymond Burke is a 'good man' and "it's canon law."

Burke doesn't need St. Stanislaus' money? That's funny in light of the Archdioscese of St. Louis spending roughly $9 million defending itself from case claims of sex abuse and legal costs. And who should happen to be worth at least $9 million dollars easily? St. Stanislaus Kostka church.

So please, by all means, repeat that mantra that has no definitive meaning to you except as a cudgel and to the Archbishop except as leverage, ("canon law", "canon law", "canon law"). Canon law is neither infalliable, like any other law devised by man, is neither infalliable nor unchanging (if 1917 and 1983 are any indications). Along with your canon law mantra, repeat this one too. "Unjust laws are, properly speaking, no laws." - St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church.

44 posted on 04/27/2007 7:58:57 PM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: Delmont; SortaBichy

I would have tango-tangled with her...until I learned that she doesn’t clean her muffin after using it.


45 posted on 04/27/2007 8:02:13 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (...forward this to your 10 very best friends....)
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To: Quick or Dead

You wrote:

“I see from your sorry attempts to refute my argument throwing out the rather general and ambiguous “canon law” that none of your dear associate’s humility and Christian devotion rubbed off on you.”

You never made an argument. You posted points that couldn’t amount to an argument no matter how long you played with them. Also, I never claimed to be as good a Christian as Archbishop Burke, nor would I.

“As a matter of fact, I’d be willing to bet that you don’t know what “canon law” St. Stanislaus supposedly violated.”

Can. 1255, 1257, 1273, 1276, 1280, 1281, 1284 and 1287 immediately come to mind.

“St. Stanislaus neither defied his ecclesiastic authority nor did they incite “hatred” against the Holy See or the Ordinary (Burke).”

Actually, St. Stan’s did both. 1) They defied his authority by ignoring his orders. How much more plain could it be? If St. Stan’s DID NOT defy his authority then it wouldn’t be in schism NOW!!!! That’s essentially what the Vatican said when it ruled that Burke had acted appropriately against St. Stan’s rebels. 2) St. Stan’s has consistently lied and said that this was about Burke trying to steal their property. To lie about a man and claim his actions were of the basest character when they were not is clearly an act of hatred.

“Burke’s command was no more legitimate than if he had stopped a random Catholic in the street and demanded the deed to their house or be denied the sacraments.”

Wrong. Your analogy completely fails you. Again, you forget that we are talking about a Catholic parish here. If it claims to be a Catholic parish then it should act as one and respect the canon law it comes under as a Catholic parish. You keep avoiding this point because you know it destroys your “argument”. You don’t have any argument whatsoever until you acknowledge that this was a functioning Catholic parish and not a Protestant’s personal backyard chapel.

“Not to mention any good American would frown on Ex Post Facto law, whether it came from Jefferson City, Washington D.C., or Rome.”

Irrelevant. It doesn’t matter what Americans think about this or any other Church action. The Church is here for Christians no matter what country they are from.

“I’m not to going to run through the rest because you repeat the same thing like a mantra. Canon law, canon law, and what’s that, more canon law. No citation, reference, or proof. “Raymond Burke is a ‘good man’ and “it’s canon law.””

You can’t do any better going through the “rest” than you did not presenting an “argument” for anything so far. Again, you dismiss canon law when canon law is the key since the parish claimed to be a Catholic parish and was staffed for the last 100 years by Catholic priests. You can ignore that huge canon law elephant in the room all you like. You won’t be able to argue rationally by doing so, but that won’t be anything new now would it?

“Burke doesn’t need St. Stanislaus’ money? That’s funny in light of the Archdioscese of St. Louis spending roughly $9 million defending itself from case claims of sex abuse and legal costs. And who should happen to be worth at least $9 million dollars easily? St. Stanislaus Kostka church.”

Again, irrelevant. St. Louis is a BIG archdiocese. It will be able to cover the costs of those cases. Burke doesn’t need St. Stan’s money. Wherever Burke goes, donations follow. Burke is orthodox and attracts orthodox Catholics. Those Catholics donate to his diocese and causes. St. Louis will not need St. Stan’s money, said it didn’t want it, and Burke is banned by canon law from taking it anyway as he has emphatically pointed out more than once! Burke wrote in his own newspaper column on May 14, 2004: “Regarding parish funds, no bishop may confiscate the funds of any parish. Such action is directly forbidden by the Code of Canon Law. The ownership of goods acquired by a parish belongs to the parish and is governed by Church discipline (cf. Can. 1255-1257).” Clearly Burke is not interested in St. Stan’s money and knows it is forbidden him anyway.

“So please, by all means, repeat that mantra that has no definitive meaning to you except as a cudgel and to the Archbishop except as leverage, (”canon law”, “canon law”, “canon law”).”

In other words, you don’t know canon law, can’t argue about canon law, and still are making the same stupid mistake in assuming a canon law issue isn’t a canon law issue. It was a Catholic parish. It therefore was bound by canon law. Period.

“Canon law is neither infalliable, like any other law devised by man, is neither infalliable nor unchanging (if 1917 and 1983 are any indications).”

It doesn’t matter that you think the code isn’t infallible. It is the code of canon law and all Catholics are bound by it. Are you going to claim that Americans are not bound by American law because it’s fallible? Your “argument” is simply nuts then isn’t it? Also, if you’re going to squeal like a little girl over the fact that canon law has changed then why not at least admit there might be a problem with the fact that St. Stan’s unilaterally changed their bylaws several times in just the last few decades. But no, you say nothing.

“Along with your canon law mantra, repeat this one too. “Unjust laws are, properly speaking, no laws.” - St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church.”

St. Stan’s was not hurt by any “unjust” law. St. Stan’s is alone in the world really isn’t it? How is it that every other Catholic parish on the planet lived just fine with the law except St. Stan’s? And how do you think Cardinal Bellarmine would regard schismatic St. Stan’s?


46 posted on 04/28/2007 3:33:59 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
You never made an argument.

Then you have spent more time thinking up a reply than reading.

Can. 1255, 1257, 1273, 1276, 1280, 1281, 1284 and 1287 immediately come to mind.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant.

Actually, St. Stan’s did both. 1) They defied his authority by ignoring his orders. How much more plain could it be? If St. Stan’s DID NOT defy his authority then it wouldn’t be in schism NOW!!!! That’s essentially what the Vatican said when it ruled that Burke had acted appropriately against St. Stan’s rebels. 2) St. Stan’s has consistently lied and said that this was about Burke trying to steal their property. To lie about a man and claim his actions were of the basest character when they were not is clearly an act of hatred.

The actual act of "schism" came after the conflict started, which was hiring their own priest from Ste. Genevieve, which resulted in automatic excommunication. Not before.

Wrong. Your analogy completely fails you. Again, you forget that we are talking about a Catholic parish here. If it claims to be a Catholic parish then it should act as one and respect the canon law it comes under as a Catholic parish. You keep avoiding this point because you know it destroys your “argument”. You don’t have any argument whatsoever until you acknowledge that this was a functioning Catholic parish and not a Protestant’s personal backyard chapel.

They did respect canon law, right up until Raymond Burke yanked their priest. After which, according to Catholic hierarchy, they were no longer a parish. Considering that the administration of a parish can be handled by a priest, a deacon, even a layman, your protest is pointless because administration is the ultimate issue.

Again, irrelevant. St. Louis is a BIG archdiocese. It will be able to cover the costs of those cases. Burke doesn’t need St. Stan’s money. Wherever Burke goes, donations follow. Burke is orthodox and attracts orthodox Catholics. Those Catholics donate to his diocese and causes. St. Louis will not need St. Stan’s money, said it didn’t want it, and Burke is banned by canon law from taking it anyway as he has emphatically pointed out more than once! Burke wrote in his own newspaper column on May 14, 2004: “Regarding parish funds, no bishop may confiscate the funds of any parish. Such action is directly forbidden by the Code of Canon Law. The ownership of goods acquired by a parish belongs to the parish and is governed by Church discipline (cf. Can. 1255-1257).” Clearly Burke is not interested in St. Stan’s money and knows it is forbidden him anyway.

A bishop can shut down a church and liquidate its assets. Given the number of churches and schools closing down in the Archdioscese, I am apt to believe that there is either a financial problem, or the Archdioscese is shoring up its funds and at least $9 million would be helpful in either regard.

In other words, you don’t know canon law, can’t argue about canon law, and still are making the same stupid mistake in assuming a canon law issue isn’t a canon law issue. It was a Catholic parish. It therefore was bound by canon law. Period.

Until the previous post, you didn't present any specific canon law for scrutiny, so...kind of hard to argue over generalities.

It doesn’t matter that you think the code isn’t infallible. It is the code of canon law and all Catholics are bound by it. Are you going to claim that Americans are not bound by American law because it’s fallible? Your “argument” is simply nuts then isn’t it? Also, if you’re going to squeal like a little girl over the fact that canon law has changed then why not at least admit there might be a problem with the fact that St. Stan’s unilaterally changed their bylaws several times in just the last few decades. But no, you say nothing.

American law does not claim to be backed by the will of divinity. Canon law does. Apples and oranges. Squeal like a little girl? Your friend Burke needs to work on you.

St. Stan’s was not hurt by any “unjust” law. St. Stan’s is alone in the world really isn’t it? How is it that every other Catholic parish on the planet lived just fine with the law except St. Stan’s? And how do you think Cardinal Bellarmine would regard schismatic St. Stan’s?

Most parishes are owned by their Dioscese or Archdioscese so the question is irrelevant. As to what St. Robert Bellarime would say as to the situation with St. Stanislaus Kostka, I can't say. Maybe something about both parties allowing wealth and material goods coming between both parties and veneration of God.

I'm just going to shut this down now, because it's really getting boring. Someone else brought it to my attention that my position is incorrect for the following reason. St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish Inc., in their original agreement with the Archdioscese of St. Louis that put the property in the hands of the board, had bylaws that stated the board would be comprised of laymen and the president and treasurer of the board would be the priest, all of whom would be appointed by the Archbishop. The corporation owned the property and could act, but the Archbishop gets to pick the people. Anyway, the board decided to change the bylaws and effectively cut the Archbishop out of the process, essentially saying that the board would appoint its own members, save for the priest. They tried to rewrite a legal agreement without the approval of the first party.

Oh well. I was wrong on this one. Life will go on.

47 posted on 04/29/2007 10:43:07 AM PDT by Quick or Dead (Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms - Aristotle)
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To: Quick or Dead

You wrote:

“Then you have spent more time thinking up a reply than reading.”

There wasn’t much to read. And what there was to read, written by you, contained NO argument.

“Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant.”

You asked what canon laws were involved. I listed some that come to mind. If the answer is irrelevant when it directly answered your question, then the question must have been irrelevant to begin with.

“The actual act of “schism” came after the conflict started, which was hiring their own priest from Ste. Genevieve, which resulted in automatic excommunication. Not before.”

I didn’t say otherwise. I wrote: “If St. Stan’s DID NOT defy his authority then it wouldn’t be in schism NOW!!!!”

Clearly St. Stan’s was in formal schism only the excommunications, but it was deep in the spirit of schism beforehand. The spirit of schism has to be there before the act.

“They did respect canon law, right up until Raymond Burke yanked their priest.”

Nonsense. If the parish respected canon law then it wouldn’t have lost its pastor in the first place! St. Stan’s REFUSED to reform its recently amended bylaws to bring them into conformity with canon law. How you can say otherwise when it is KNOWN BY EVERYONE that that is exactly what happened is beyond me.

“After which, according to Catholic hierarchy, they were no longer a parish. Considering that the administration of a parish can be handled by a priest, a deacon, even a layman, your protest is pointless because administration is the ultimate issue.”

That’s EXACTLY what I have been saying. The appointed pastor of a Catholic parish is THE ADMINISTRATOR of that parish as established by canon law. He is the administrator of Church property at a Catholic parish. St. Stan’s schismatic board was deliberately refusing to accept that canonical authority. That’s the whole point.

“A bishop can shut down a church and liquidate its assets. Given the number of churches and schools closing down in the Archdioscese, I am apt to believe that there is either a financial problem, or the Archdioscese is shoring up its funds and at least $9 million would be helpful in either regard.”

Can you show any evidence at all that Burke was after the parish’s money? Any at all? Can you show any evidence at all that Burke had any plans to close St. Stan’s any time in the future? No such evidence has come to light and Burke has specifically denied having any such intentions. Only a man with a sick mind would insinuate Burke would do something that is not in his nature, and that he specifically and publicly denied. You have consistently insinuated that Burke had some sort of nefarious purpose without a single shred of evidence. Why would you do that? Why would you do that especially when you don’t know him, are clearly not familiar with what’s happened with St. Stan’s, and have no idea about the issues involved? What kind of hubris would allow you to slander this man in such a way?

“Until the previous post, you didn’t present any specific canon law for scrutiny, so...kind of hard to argue over generalities.”

So you didn’t know what canons were even involved. No surprise there. Of course, not knowing anything about the subject didn’t actually stop you from posting about time and time again. But why let a serious lack of knowledge get in the way of making a really poor attempt at an argument right?

“American law does not claim to be backed by the will of divinity. Canon law does.”

No, it doesn’t. Again, we see that you have no idea of what you’re talking about. Read the code and you’ll see that God isn’t even mentioned in it (except for the constitution at the beginning issued by John Paul II). No one believes that canon law is infallible or inspired.

“Apples and oranges. Squeal like a little girl? Your friend Burke needs to work on you.”

He probably should, but who then would work on you? You need to read, and maybe start thinking too!!!

“Most parishes are owned by their Dioscese or Archdioscese so the question is irrelevant.”

ALL parishes are supposed to be administered by the local diocese. ALL. That’s exactly what the problem was with St. Stan’s.

“As to what St. Robert Bellarime would say as to the situation with St. Stanislaus Kostka, I can’t say. Maybe something about both parties allowing wealth and material goods coming between both parties and veneration of God.”
Nope. St. Robert Bellarmine, one of the greatest enemies of schism in the history of the Church, would have denounced St. Stan’s BOARD for materialism. No materialism has been shown whatsoever by Burke or the Archdiocese. Burke just wants the parish to be disobedient. St. Stan’s, on the other hand, puts their private ecclesiastical empire before obedience to the Catholic Church, Church law, communion with the archbishop, or even being in communion with the Church. It is only a matter of time before they slide into heresy – as happens with all schismatics.

“I’m just going to shut this down now, because it’s really getting boring. Someone else brought it to my attention that my position is incorrect for the following reason. St. Stanislaus Kostka Parish Inc., in their original agreement with the Archdioscese of St. Louis that put the property in the hands of the board, had bylaws that stated the board would be comprised of laymen and the president and treasurer of the board would be the priest, all of whom would be appointed by the Archbishop. The corporation owned the property and could act, but the Archbishop gets to pick the people. Anyway, the board decided to change the bylaws and effectively cut the Archbishop out of the process, essentially saying that the board would appoint its own members, save for the priest. They tried to rewrite a legal agreement without the approval of the first party. Oh well. I was wrong on this one. Life will go on.”

Life will go on. Will you learn from it? You insisted, in post after post, with no argument in sight, and completely dismissing canon law even though you know nothing about it and it is at the heart of the matter, that you were right. Now you know better. Will you learn from it?


48 posted on 04/29/2007 1:31:34 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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