Posted on 05/02/2007 7:09:53 AM PDT by presidio9
The original Greek and Hebrew. Translations are for our benefit but any serious study has to address the original text. And in the Original text the author defiantly does not say there is more than one God* he says there are idols.
Funny then that there have been changes to the book of Mormon post that revelation. Look the beliefs you lay down are *not* Christian and only by ignoring key biblical text and omitting words *LIKE IDOLS* does it even appear to be anything other than a cult.
The LDS Church is led by prophets and apostles.
Well its fairly obvious it aint Christ leading the LDS..
We can, of course, say that God is good. But then we have to remember that in speaking positively about God (as opposed to negatively) we can only speak analogically. In other words, God is truly good, as we understand goodness, but His goodness far exceeds our conception of goodness. Our conception of goodness is only a 'shadow', so to speak', of His.
-A8
But we don't have the originals. The oldest known Hebrew manuscripts, handwritten copies, are from the tenth century. Are you really comfortable claiming that those manuscripts arrived in perfect form after so many hundreds of years?
Funny then that there have been changes to the book of Mormon post that revelation.
Yes, there have been some minor changes, mostly to punctuation and updated spellings (i.e. a-journeying --> journeying), etc.. Nobody ever claimed that the Book of Mormon was perfect. (Really, we never have.)
Look the beliefs you lay down are *not* Christian and only by ignoring key biblical text and omitting words *LIKE IDOLS* does it even appear to be anything other than a cult.
Is the KJV non-Christian because it "ignored" your translation of the Hebrew? You said yourself that it was left out of what I quoted, which was the KJV. Does that make the KJV non-Christian?
Which of the conflicting doctrines of the Catholics, the Methodists, the Baptists and the Lutherans are the "real" Christian doctrines? Are you going to pretend that all of Christianity is on one side of the fence and Mormons are on the other? Do you claim that all other Christian denominations agree on doctrine?
Actually it was a quote to me and A8 and I wasn't sure who he was referencing with the "devils also believe, and tremble." part.
Christians tend to curse me a lot ^_^
1) Cr was written in Greek not Hebrew (it was after all written *to* Greeks).
2) No the KJV is not 'non Christian' but studying a translation into a given language can lead some to believe heretical things. When confronted with that you go to the Greek and Hebrew as needed.
I find it amusing that you refuse to acknowledge the scripture you posted to justify that there are many Gods was shot down and have degraded into an argument about the best translation of the Greek.
Which of the conflicting doctrines of the Catholics, the Methodists, the Baptists and the Lutherans are the "real" Christian doctrines? Are you going to pretend that all of Christianity is on one side of the fence and Mormons are on the other? Do you claim that all other Christian denominations agree on doctrine?
For the most part, yes Mormons are on the other side because they are the only ones who don't see God as the Sovereign and Only God over the Universe! There are always disputes between these groups but seldom do they take away from the Omnipotence and Omnipresence of God. When you tell me that somewhere out there is a rock floating through space with other people that God is not sovereign over you have jumped the tank.
The oldest version we have of the Pauline Epistles (of which 1 Cr falls is from the 4th century not the 10th) its in the Codex Vaticanus.
You're right. My mistake.
No the KJV is not 'non Christian' but studying a translation into a given language can lead some to believe heretical things. When confronted with that you go to the Greek and Hebrew as needed.
I didn't "go to" anything. I responded to your accusation that I had ignored the original Greek. I hadn't ignored anything, but only quoted the KJV, which didn't have the English translation you wanted in it. So your argument here is really with the KJV translators, not me. You claim to have a more accurate translation than they.
And you ignore the question of the accuracy of the Hebrew and Greek. You make it sound as though it's a simple thing to jump from one of the English translations back to the original languages and somehow get the correct translation that way. Aside from the fact that, again, nobody has the original text, how do you get to be a better Hebrew to English or Greek to English translator than those who have already done this? How do you decide that your understanding of the original Hebrew or Greek is correct, while theirs is not?
You've already put yourself above those who translated the KJV. Why should I believe that your interpretation is better than theirs?
For the most part, yes Mormons are on the other side because they are the only ones who don't see God as the Sovereign and Only God over the Universe!
But that's not an accurate presentation of our belief. We do worship God as the One God of the universe!
Any other beings aside from God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost have nothing at all to do with us, our world or our salvation. As far as our world and its inhabitants are concerned, there is no other God.
Getting into questions of other worlds, universes, etc.. is all just meaningless speculation, since they have nothing to do with us in the slightest.
There are always disputes between these groups but seldom do they take away from the Omnipotence and Omnipresence of God. When you tell me that somewhere out there is a rock floating through space with other people that God is not sovereign over you have jumped the tank.
Why does that even matter? It's just as meaningless as the questions about whether or not God could create a rock too big for Him to lift. Both are meaningless exercises in pointless thought.
It's like me telling my kids, "I'm the Dad. I'll always be your Dad. You'll never have another Dad." I have spoken the truth. Other kids have another dad, but not my kids. Other kids' dads have nothing to do with my kids. They have no family relationship whatsoever, so whether another man is a father or not has no bearing on my children.
It's the same with our world. Every person born on it is a child of our Father in Heaven. He is God. He is our Father. There is no other, just like my kids have no other mortal father but me. Other fathers are not "Father" to my kids. Other gods are not "God" to me, nor to any person ever born on this earth. They have nothing to do with us; we have nothing to do with them.
I hope that makes it more clear.
The thread is about whether Romney would be a good president, in spite of not being a Christian. The thread is not about my personal faith in God.
Now regarding the danger the US faces from islamo-fascism, it would not be appropriate for the govt of the US to sit back and wait for God to save the nation. God empowers and authorizes human government to subdue evil. "It is a minister of God for good." Paul said this when Nero was the emperor. True, Nero abused his power and was removed. But the larger point is that the head of state need not be a Christian to govern the nation effectively.
If these premises are true, then it is fully appropriate to elect a President who will mobilize the government at all levels to fight off the Islamo-fascist threat. Such a President would be a tool in God's hand... whether he is a Christian or not.
There you go again telling Mormons what they believe. Would you presume to tell a Jew or a Muslim what they believe? I will take one of your quotes and give you a Mormon perspective.
"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it."(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 349).
The Mormon understanding of that scripture is that all of us helped create the world. We (the spirit children of God) were the 'Gods' referenced here. Obviously we aren't God as you are defining it. No Mormon would confuse those 'Gods' with the Trinity
I think the confusion that you are having comes from the Mormons belief that we were Created by God (the trinity) and may become one with God in the fullness of time. The analogy that is used is a child growing up to be like the parents. That is a very simplistic view and the actual teachings go way beyond that. In fact the whole thrust of the Churches teachings are geared to the principle of becoming "One" with Christ (the Trinity).
Now lets take a look at one of your scriptures that is supposed to clearly state that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God.
Isaiah 43:10-11: "You are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."
Hmm, I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit, or Christ? Am I missing something? I am certainly not disputing that the Old Testament believes in a Monotheistic God. I want to see where it says that they are a Trinity. Surely the foundation of your belief is clearly defined. It is for the Jews at least.
The Trinity is implicit in the Old Testament and is clearly revealed in the New Testament.
I keep asking for scriptural statements to that effect and You keep evading me.
If you are insisting on an explicit Old Testament passage that refers to the Son by the name, "Jesus Christ" then said requirement is idiotic because Jesus had not yet been born when the Old Testament was finished.
Are you implying that Christ didn't exist until he was born? Then Christ was created? Doesn't that contradict your Trinity views?
However, there is plenty of evidence and scholarhsip on the subject. Here's just one example out of what could be probably thousands: A Multi-Personal God
I went through your 'Multi-Personal God' reference and I was struck by two things. One was the complete lack of reference to other Gods, like the first Commandment. And second the concept of Compound Oneness.
When we open the Bible, what do we find? We find that echad is applied to God. He is "one" in the sense of compound oneness. This is so central to the Old Testament concept of God that it is found in Israel's Great Confession:
That concept of Compound Oneness is surprising similar to Mormons belief in God.
Are you unable to type words into a search engine? Do your own homework.
I already have a pretty good idea of what God is or isn't, I am an atheist remember. You are the one that is condemning Mormons for not believing in exactly the same God that you believe in. I am simply asking for your scriptural foundation for your belief in what God is. If your concept of God isn't clearly scriptural it throws your whole premise into the trash heap. Or am I wrong in thinking that your concept of God is supposedly based on the Bible?
If you are an atheist,
Actually I don't like that term because it implies that I am denying something that doesn't exist, which is not the case at all. It is simply a classification that is close enough. I actually think that the term Atheist should be applied to people who believe in a God and their disbelief's of other religions.
If everything, including your thoughts and my thoughts are really nothing more than an accidental concatenation of colliding atoms, determined by the laws of physics what sense does it make to praise or blame them? How can the evolution of nothing but physical forces produce something wrong? On your worldview your condemnations of me make about as much sense as condemning the moon for orbiting around the earth.
You just can't help yourself, telling other people what they believe, can you? Did the God you created die and did you replace him with yourself?
You may be right. Everything we are may be as inconsequential as the Moon orbiting the earth. Didn't the Catholics burn Giordano Bruno at the stake because of that belief? Are you a Calvinist or a Catholic, your posts seem to indicate both? On they other hand I tend to believe that there is something special about life and consciousness. I also tend to believe in the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, that our perception creates reality. Perhaps life itself is God.
Cult.
*****1. Ask her where does the bible tell her that she has the right, or capability, to judge whether or not someone is a Christian.****
My point exactly. I think it is arrogant for me to decide these matters.
I’d rather let G-D decide.
Anyway, its a good way to make enemies by declaring that someone is or is not a Christian/Jew/Hindu/whatever.
And, my real criteria of a person’s worth is how the person behaves towards others rather than what they call themselves.
But some people need the ego trip of declaring who is or who isn’t this or that.
“However, Joseph Smith considered both Judaism and Christianity not incomplete but false,”
That ain’t true. Many’s the time I have heard Church leaders praise other denominations for their good works and Christian love. Most recently, at General Conference, the Ahmish believers were praised - the way they chose to forgive the guy who murdered the school girls. We were told to be more like the Ahmish.
I love my Church and I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 16, p. 46, 1873"Convince us of our errors of Doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God and we will ever be grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings."
Orson Pratt:The Seer, p. 15
The Mormon understanding of that scripture is that all of us helped create the world. We (the spirit children of God) were the 'Gods' referenced here...
“I am the LORD who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself".
Isaiah 44:24
You are the one that is condemning Mormons for not believing in exactly the same God that you believe in.
Where did I condemn Mormons? Back up your accusation. Prove it.
Make up your mind. Do I believe in the same God as Mormons or not? And while we're waiting for proof that I am condemning Mormons, not that it will matter to you in the slightest, Mormons themselves say that they worship a different God than I do:
"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshiped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
LDS Quorum of the Seventy member Bernard P. Brockbank, The Ensign, May 1977, p. 26"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'"
LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p. 7"Christ was not begotten of the Holy Ghost...He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18"Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. ...If the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children to be palmed upon the Elders by the people bringing the Elders into great difficulties."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:51"The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy, ...a belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons.'"
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:345-346"The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this sprit-filled brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind."
Milton R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15
You just can't help yourself, telling other people what they believe, can you?
Your accusation is self-refuting.
Did the God you created die and did you replace him with yourself?
You're a self-described atheist. Even if that is what I were doing why would it bother you? What coherent reason could you possibly advance for complaining about physical epiphenomena or disagreeing with it?
Cordially,
Thanks for posting now I have a list of the FR bigots all on one thread!:)
Pay no mind to those because they can’t wait to tattletale and distort a message!
You have no idea why I posted this article. Your accusation is unwarrented, as far as I'm concerned.
I don’t want to be called a bigot restornu.
I have learned a lot about Mormonism since coming to FR. I admit there’s alot I didn’t know, good and bad. I’m all about becoming educated.
By the way did you not see that I solved the chicken vs. egg thing for you in the other thread!
Then, perhaps you should not have framed one of your post on how Christians need to line up with Mormons to be saved. All I am saying is regardless of who is president Christians will be saved by the hand of God. Now I wont vote for Romney because he only found out he was pro-life while planning to run for president.
Now regarding the danger the US faces from islamo-fascism, it would not be appropriate for the govt of the US to sit back and wait for God to save the nation.
Nor did I say it was, what I said was God will save us irregardless of who is in the White House.
whether he is a Christian or not.
I dont disagree I just dont place my faith in 'Christians being so few in number we need to align with Mormons'.
And ignored the fact that the verse you used to justify polytheism in the Bible says nothing of the sort. Trying instead to start some kind of 'version fight'. You still have not addressed that in the original Greek the verse calls them idols not Gods.
So your argument here is really with the KJV translators, not me. You claim to have a more accurate translation than they.
I did not use a translation I used the Original Greek which contains the word 'eidolon' and uses a completely different word 'theos' to identify God. The KJV, for some reason, translated this poorly, could be because it was translated at a different time. BTW are you sure your using KJV, I looked it up to be sure and it says:
1Ch 8:4 (KJV) As concerning therefore the eating of those Things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
So what translation uses Gods? The closest I found to yours was the NIV which says
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
You make it sound as though it's a simple thing to jump from one of the English translations back to the original languages and somehow get the correct translation that way.
What are you talking about I did no such thing, I went to the Greek from which the translation was made I did not translate the English into Greek. The Original Doc are in Greek and, contrary to your assertion, are not from the 10th but the 4th century.
You've already put yourself above those who translated the KJV. Why should I believe that your interpretation is better than theirs?
Again I did no such thing! Their translation is not perfect no translation is! That is why I went to the Greek to counter your interpretation of scripture and did not just go to another translation! Did I say 'But the NIV says this!, or the NKJV says that!? No I said *here is what Paul wrote!* . It is you who appears to be married to a particular translation of the scriptures rather than the scriptures itself, you are the only one to mention a specific translation up to this post!
But that's not an accurate presentation of our belief. We do worship God as the One God of the universe!
Whether or not you wish to acknowledge it that is the consequence of what you believe! You believe out there somewhere is a rock that is not under the complete control of our God, they have their own. Even the Greeks and Romans picked their particular house or City Gods to worship it did not change the fact they were polytheist.
Getting into questions of other worlds, universes, etc.. is all just meaningless speculation, since they have nothing to do with us in the slightest
It not only has something to do with you its a pretty core part of your belief system! you believe that people can if they are good enough Mormons become Gods over their own planets!
"It's like me telling my kids, "I'm the Dad. I'll always be your Dad. You'll never have another Dad." I have spoken the truth. Other kids have another dad, but not my kids. Other kids' dads have nothing to do with my kids. They have no family relationship whatsoever, so whether another man is a father or not has no bearing on my children."
This is why you are not Christian, and why you are not even a monotheist. Even if your kids don't follow other fathers they still believe they exist and if one of them tells your kid to 'get off my lawn' your kid should obey. To a Christian here is but *one* God of the entire universe to you there are many Gods but you only care about one, well thats until you yourself grow up to become a God.
I hope that makes it more clear.
Yes you assume that someday you will be a God and have sex to produce spirit kids for another planet and you will be the equal of our God back here on earth, quite clear..
“Well its fairly obvious it aint Christ leading the LDS..”
Jesus Christ is the Head of my Church. I am proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am not ashamed of Jesus Christ. I will shout His name from the rooftops.
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