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Iraqi Army receives M-16 and M-4 rifles
Blackanthem Military News ^ | May 11, 2007 | Sgt. 1st Class Nicholas Conner, 13th SC(E), LSA ANACONDA PAO

Posted on 05/11/2007 6:44:12 PM PDT by mdittmar

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1 posted on 05/11/2007 6:44:14 PM PDT by mdittmar
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To: mdittmar

“Officials then transfer the information to a database in Baghdad, to ensure accountability and to prevent the weapon from ending up in the wrong hands.”

I think that will mean more than better accuracy.


2 posted on 05/11/2007 6:50:20 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: mdittmar

I hope the Iraqis like their new rifles ....


3 posted on 05/11/2007 6:50:25 PM PDT by Ken522
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To: mdittmar

The Pentagon convinced them to spend around two billion of their oil money to replace the AK-47 with American weapons like the M-16.


4 posted on 05/11/2007 6:50:55 PM PDT by ASC2006
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To: mdittmar
Probably the most telling thing about the M-16 is the fact that Commie Viet Nam has about 200,000 of them still on their hands after all these years.

Like all commie countries, they are hurting for hard currency ... but nobody wants those rifles, at any price. It's not the ammo, Russia sell .223 as as cheap as the AK-47 round. Just nobody wants them.

And after that maintenance unit got hit in Gulf War Two, can ya blame them?

5 posted on 05/11/2007 6:58:46 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: investigateworld

You think Iraq is making a mistake buying M-16 from the US?


6 posted on 05/11/2007 7:00:50 PM PDT by ASC2006
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To: investigateworld

Thanks for your input.


7 posted on 05/11/2007 7:03:09 PM PDT by mdittmar (May God watch over those who serve,and have served, to keep us free.)
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To: ASC2006

I believe the American military has become the model for the new Iraqi Army and anything they can do to copy or imitate our military adds to their confidence and professionalism. Weapons are just part of the package. I would doubt that pressure by the US alone would be enough to make the Iraqis switch from the familiar and widely accepted AK-47.


8 posted on 05/11/2007 7:07:27 PM PDT by caisson71
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To: ASC2006
Depends on one's POV. For the US manufactures and their employees, great. There no risk to current technology being lost to an enemy.

But if I were an Iraqi unit commander, ya, I'd object.

Care of equipment and weapons isn't a acceptable Third World concept. (While under the influence of Oklahoma Thinking juice, a couple of buddies and myself actually buried a MAK 90 in the backyard, where sprinklers went on once a day. After a month we dug it up and drove to Lyle Creek. A quick swab with a rag and it was good to go)

9 posted on 05/11/2007 7:08:12 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: investigateworld

Something to note, though - it will make it easier for our guys to blend in, and harder for the bad guys.


10 posted on 05/11/2007 7:09:51 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: investigateworld

After the surrender they had something like 700,000 of them. That’s why you see Palestinians, latino revolutionaries, and African terrorists, etc, carrying them. Half a million of them spread out all over the world, and not to the good guys.


11 posted on 05/11/2007 7:09:51 PM PDT by Dumpster Baby ("Hope somebody finds me before the rats do .....")
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To: mdittmar
Iraq should get the Polish Tantal Beryl assault rifle. 5.56 MM NATO in an AK platform.


12 posted on 05/11/2007 7:11:34 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: mdittmar

PS. Is Iraq thinking about joining NATO???


13 posted on 05/11/2007 7:14:50 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Dumpster Baby
Hmmmm

I’ve never seen a Latin American thug with one, but I recall seeing Mexicans in one of the rebelling southern provinces with STEN Mark 3’s.
I think we gave the Pali’s about 5,000 in one of our attempts to give the Palestinian Authority some kind of respectability.

14 posted on 05/11/2007 7:16:17 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: investigateworld
I hear all you keyboard commandos bad mouthing the M16, but the real deal folks who use them, not REMFs, but combat troops, love them, especially for urban warfare.
15 posted on 05/11/2007 7:16:51 PM PDT by Comus (There is no honor in dying with your sword sheathed)
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To: Thunder90

I hope that works better than the Valmet M-76 I used to own.The .223 seems to be a poor choice in an AK variant,the extractor would tear the heads of the cartridges if the chamber was a bit dirty.And that was with a chrome chamber,I think an AK prefers a larger cartrige head and a shorter case length.


16 posted on 05/11/2007 7:18:52 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (Every time a toilet flushes,another liberal gets his brains.)
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To: Comus

Never served,thanks.


17 posted on 05/11/2007 7:19:15 PM PDT by mdittmar (May God watch over those who serve,and have served, to keep us free.)
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To: Comus
'keyboard commandos bad mouthing the M16'

Kind of sets the tone for an intelligent conversation?

My point is that Third World countries just don't take care of their stuff.

Personally I love to blast my SIL's AR-15, but I have the luxury to sit down and give it a good cleaning before it goes into a locked closet and I bring out the barley pop.

18 posted on 05/11/2007 7:24:13 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: investigateworld

What government really would want a bunch of worn out M16’s from the 60’s? M16’s can be a very effective weapon, providing they’re well maintained and not worn out, but I’d bet any M16’s in VN’s armories are neither. I handled plenty of old jammomatic M16A1’s back in the 80’s and I hated them, but when they gave us new M16A2’s I had to change my opinion of them. The new rifles were both reliable and accurate.


19 posted on 05/11/2007 7:25:11 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: mdittmar

As an owner of both (civilan versions) I can say I prefer the M-16. Take a 15K acre state park, fence it in, give me a cabin and him a cabin and give both of us supplies. Then say one of us gets an AK and the other an M-16 and that I get to pick first, I’ll pick the M-16. I know it’s limitations but if I see him at 200 yds, the game is over.


20 posted on 05/11/2007 7:27:44 PM PDT by fso301
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To: elmer fudd
I see your point but we're talking about a Third World nation using them. So based on my experience with various types of people, I would be inclined to go with what they can handle in the day to day world.

A properly trained soldier always takes care of his 'stuff', who knows maybe our Army there will perform a miracle?

21 posted on 05/11/2007 7:33:49 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: investigateworld

See post 12 for a potential solution to Iraq’s needs to become NATO compliant.


22 posted on 05/11/2007 7:34:16 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: investigateworld
Iran is currently fielding knockoff M-16 rifles for its military forces. It also even built a bullpup version for its special forces (Khybar 2000)
23 posted on 05/11/2007 7:37:25 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Comus
combat troops, love them, especially for urban warfare

I thought our troops wanted a bigger caliber bullet with more shock so it could penetrate those mud blocks over there.

24 posted on 05/11/2007 7:39:17 PM PDT by JoeGar
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To: mdittmar

“We are very excited about it,” said a 9th Iraqi Army Division second lieutenant, whose name is withheld to protect his identity. “We have been hearing about getting the new weapons for some time and finally they are here.”

The sand will probably not be kind to the M16s.


25 posted on 05/11/2007 7:41:02 PM PDT by ASC2006
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To: ASC2006

I wouldn’t know about that.


26 posted on 05/11/2007 7:44:24 PM PDT by mdittmar (May God watch over those who serve,and have served, to keep us free.)
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To: fso301
As an owner of both (civilan versions) I can say I prefer the M-16. Take a 15K acre state park, fence it in, give me a cabin and him a cabin and give both of us supplies. Then say one of us gets an AK and the other an M-16 and that I get to pick first, I’ll pick the M-16. I know it’s limitations but if I see him at 200 yds, the game is over.

That really depends on the AK in question. I haven't seen any chambered in 7.62x39 that could hold a candle to the AR for accuracy, but the ones in other calibers, (particularly the 5.56), often do quite well. I've got two in 5.56 that will shoot 2 MOA and one in .308 that will do 3. My old Mak90 on the other hand was lucky to shoot 6 MOA.

27 posted on 05/11/2007 7:44:47 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: Thunder90
That's looks very efficient for an infantryman.

Being the armchair commandos are attempting to put lumps on this old bod anyway; I'll stir the pot. No likey the way one would have to break view of enemy zone to change magazines.

What say you?

28 posted on 05/11/2007 7:45:59 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: mdittmar

I like the symbolism of this. The Kalashnikov is a symbol of third-worldism, communism, and terrorism. The M-16 is a symbol of the free world and being on the right side of history.


29 posted on 05/11/2007 7:51:08 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Comus; investigateworld

I shoot literally thousands of rounds through AR-15/M-16 variants a year. The Russian COPPER FMJ is my round of choice for target shooting; it is reliable and very clean. There was some Russians steel jacketed stuff that was very hot and caused excessive barrel wear - stopped using that.


30 posted on 05/11/2007 7:56:40 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (NSDQ)
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To: mad_as_he$$
If you’re measuring barrel erosion, I take it your a serious shooter.
I have some friends coming from the UK this summer so I got a case of Golden Tiger for S & Gs.
Not bad stuff, but my Winchester- Western is for me.
31 posted on 05/11/2007 8:07:10 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: mdittmar

“The Iraqi government made the decision to crossover from standard AK-47 assault rifles to the American rifles as part of the reshaping of their military and security forces.”

Good gawd. The country is awash in AK-47s. What a waste.


32 posted on 05/11/2007 8:13:06 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: mdittmar
This is just plain stupid.

The M-16 series rifle requires a LOT of maintainence and training for same. The M-16 is particularly sensitive to sand. Iraq has plenty of sand.

If there is an Iraqi who does not know how to use an AK that Iraqi is less than 4 years old.

33 posted on 05/11/2007 8:16:20 PM PDT by LibKill ("RUDY GIULIANI" is just "HILLARY CLINTON" misspelled and wearing a dress.)
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To: mdittmar

Since this thread has a bunch of ‘keyboard kommandos’, I was wondering if I could get a straight answer to a question.

Does anyone know the standard accuracy of an AK-47? Now, I’m not talking about a cherry-picked, accurized AK. Nor am I talking about one with match ammo. I’m talking about a Third World-issued AK with Warsaw Pact ammo. One concession, maybe, with a milled receiver and not a cruddy AKM stamped receiver. I’m just curious what our Spec Forces people run across when it comes to accuracy.


34 posted on 05/11/2007 8:28:10 PM PDT by tanuki
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To: tanuki

AK47/AKM accuracy? probably 3-6MOA. 3”-6” @ 100m 6”-12” @200m.

AR15/M16 1-3MOA

This is a great idea. I think the Iraqis will get alot of pride from arming themselves with the small arms symbol of the free world.


35 posted on 05/11/2007 8:41:55 PM PDT by txgunrunner
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To: Comus
I hear all you keyboard commandos bad mouthing the M16, but the real deal folks who use them, not REMFs, but combat troops, love them, especially for urban warfare.

I thought my M-16 was a pice of crap in the first Gulf War. Now, the M-2 ... THAT is a nice piece of hardware.

36 posted on 05/11/2007 8:48:04 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Killing all of your enemies without mercy is the only sure way of sleeping soundly at night.)
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To: mdittmar

Now that Mookie and his douchbag brothers are kicked out, its time to arm our friends.


37 posted on 05/11/2007 8:48:43 PM PDT by FreedomNeocon (Success is not final; Failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts -- Churchill)
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To: txgunrunner
This is a great idea. I think the Iraqis will get alot of pride from arming themselves with the small arms symbol of the free world.

More than that. If you want it to work, you have to pay attention to detail cleaning and maintaining the weapon. That in and of itself will make them more professional.

More attention to detail means they will pay more attention to detail elsewhere.

38 posted on 05/11/2007 8:52:11 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Killing all of your enemies without mercy is the only sure way of sleeping soundly at night.)
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To: txgunrunner

Thanx for the info! I agree, the M16 will be a step up in accuracy and a big leap in prestige for them.


39 posted on 05/11/2007 9:00:54 PM PDT by tanuki
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To: investigateworld

Well, originally, Vietnam had almost a million of them. They sold or gave much of them away as military aid to their fellow Marxists, especially to Latin America. For example, did you know that Vietnamese ‘16s were used by the El Salvadorian FMLN, the Guatemalan URNG, the Colombian and Honduran anti-government forces, the FPMR of Chile and the Nicaraguan Sandinista govenment?

http://groups.google.com/group/us.military.army/browse_frm/thread/961b690326cef01a/6296bb862fed93b5?lnk=st&q=%22Weapons+of+the+FMLN%22&rnum=1&hl=en#6296bb862fed93b5

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.moderated/browse_frm/thread/afaa79ffbbd9d555/a9871d70525c86a6?lnk=st&q=%22Weapons+of+the+FMLN%22&rnum=2&hl=en#a9871d70525c86a6


40 posted on 05/11/2007 9:04:41 PM PDT by Jacob Kell (Rush and Hannity rules!)
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To: tanuki
In my time in the USMC I was very familiar with the M-16.

It sucks in sandy environments, like Camp Pendleton.

The AK is a "Chimp Rifle". Meaning that you could issue it to a chimpanzee and a year later it would still work.

The Iraqis are not chimps, but they are not Marines or US Army either.

I believe it would be better for them, and us, if we left them to a rifle they understand and know how to use.

Most of the fighting in Iraq is street-to-street. Short range. The extra accuracy of the M-16 is not required.

41 posted on 05/11/2007 9:08:28 PM PDT by LibKill ("RUDY GIULIANI" is just "HILLARY CLINTON" misspelled and wearing a dress.)
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To: tanuki
Does anyone know the standard accuracy of an AK-47? Now, I’m not talking about a cherry-picked, accurized AK. Nor am I talking about one with match ammo. I’m talking about a Third World-issued AK with Warsaw Pact ammo. One concession, maybe, with a milled receiver and not a cruddy AKM stamped receiver. I’m just curious what our Spec Forces people run across when it comes to accuracy.

In my experience it was about 6 MOA, using a Chinese MAK90, (which, except for the stock, are considered to be decent AK's). A particularly good one like a Valmet would probably perform somewhat better. The problem seems to be mostly related to the cartridge. I have read that even AR's chambered in 7.62x39 tend to have disappointing accuracy.

If you go over to AR15.com and click on the AK47 tab you can find many threads on this subject. The consensus seems to be that AK's in 7.62x39 are capable of somewhere between 4 and 8 MOA depending on the gun in question and who you ask. AK's in other calibers do much better, but they don't seem to have the potential to be made truly accurate.

42 posted on 05/11/2007 9:13:36 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: mdittmar
Iraqi surplus coming back to the USA? We can only hope!
43 posted on 05/11/2007 9:15:44 PM PDT by endthematrix (a globalized and integrated world - which is coming, one way or the other. - Hillary)
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To: Jacob Kell; Centurion2000
Thanks for the info Jacob.
Centurion, I’m going to have nightmares of R. Lee Emery barking at Iraqi recruits and wearing a turban lol
44 posted on 05/11/2007 9:19:24 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: LibKill; elmer fudd

Thanks for the insight, LibKill. I, too, am concerned about the effectiveness of the M-16 in a high particulate environment and with an army that is still being broken in.

Thanks, elmer fudd, for your info, too. I will look up AR15.com. The MAK 90 sounds like a nice arm.


45 posted on 05/11/2007 10:06:38 PM PDT by tanuki
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To: mdittmar

Okay, I missed this one. What is an M-4 Rifle? Anyone got a picture?


46 posted on 05/11/2007 10:08:37 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: elmer fudd

That’s because most of the 7.62X39 shot in them is cheap Russian Wolf and old surplus ammo. Accurate it ain’t The 7.62X39 ain’t no slouch itself. Various bolt-gun makers chamber it with good results. Heck the 6mmPPC widely regarded as one of the most naturally accurate cartridges ever made is a kissing cousin in design to the “Russian Short”. Also Ak’s aren’t accurate because of their designed loose tolerances. The good side of this is it allows for their legendary reliability.


47 posted on 05/11/2007 10:17:50 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: Yardstick

No, the FAL is a symbol of the free world, in fact it was called “The Right arm of the Free world” and for good reason. Heck of a gun and if it was picked over the M14 our military would have used it for many years.


48 posted on 05/11/2007 10:20:17 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: Thunder90

I thought Iran was using G3’s built in Iran? Heck of a good .308 battlerifle in it’s own right.


49 posted on 05/11/2007 10:22:19 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: mdittmar

The shift from AK to AR is a sign they are becoming professionals.


50 posted on 05/11/2007 10:29:16 PM PDT by Dead Dog
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