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Iraqi Army receives M-16 and M-4 rifles
Blackanthem Military News ^ | May 11, 2007 | Sgt. 1st Class Nicholas Conner, 13th SC(E), LSA ANACONDA PAO

Posted on 05/11/2007 6:44:12 PM PDT by mdittmar

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To: tanuki
In my time in the USMC I was very familiar with the M-16.

It sucks in sandy environments, like Camp Pendleton.

The AK is a "Chimp Rifle". Meaning that you could issue it to a chimpanzee and a year later it would still work.

The Iraqis are not chimps, but they are not Marines or US Army either.

I believe it would be better for them, and us, if we left them to a rifle they understand and know how to use.

Most of the fighting in Iraq is street-to-street. Short range. The extra accuracy of the M-16 is not required.

41 posted on 05/11/2007 9:08:28 PM PDT by LibKill ("RUDY GIULIANI" is just "HILLARY CLINTON" misspelled and wearing a dress.)
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To: tanuki
Does anyone know the standard accuracy of an AK-47? Now, I’m not talking about a cherry-picked, accurized AK. Nor am I talking about one with match ammo. I’m talking about a Third World-issued AK with Warsaw Pact ammo. One concession, maybe, with a milled receiver and not a cruddy AKM stamped receiver. I’m just curious what our Spec Forces people run across when it comes to accuracy.

In my experience it was about 6 MOA, using a Chinese MAK90, (which, except for the stock, are considered to be decent AK's). A particularly good one like a Valmet would probably perform somewhat better. The problem seems to be mostly related to the cartridge. I have read that even AR's chambered in 7.62x39 tend to have disappointing accuracy.

If you go over to AR15.com and click on the AK47 tab you can find many threads on this subject. The consensus seems to be that AK's in 7.62x39 are capable of somewhere between 4 and 8 MOA depending on the gun in question and who you ask. AK's in other calibers do much better, but they don't seem to have the potential to be made truly accurate.

42 posted on 05/11/2007 9:13:36 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: mdittmar
Iraqi surplus coming back to the USA? We can only hope!
43 posted on 05/11/2007 9:15:44 PM PDT by endthematrix (a globalized and integrated world - which is coming, one way or the other. - Hillary)
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To: Jacob Kell; Centurion2000
Thanks for the info Jacob.
Centurion, I’m going to have nightmares of R. Lee Emery barking at Iraqi recruits and wearing a turban lol
44 posted on 05/11/2007 9:19:24 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: LibKill; elmer fudd

Thanks for the insight, LibKill. I, too, am concerned about the effectiveness of the M-16 in a high particulate environment and with an army that is still being broken in.

Thanks, elmer fudd, for your info, too. I will look up AR15.com. The MAK 90 sounds like a nice arm.


45 posted on 05/11/2007 10:06:38 PM PDT by tanuki
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To: mdittmar

Okay, I missed this one. What is an M-4 Rifle? Anyone got a picture?


46 posted on 05/11/2007 10:08:37 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: elmer fudd

That’s because most of the 7.62X39 shot in them is cheap Russian Wolf and old surplus ammo. Accurate it ain’t The 7.62X39 ain’t no slouch itself. Various bolt-gun makers chamber it with good results. Heck the 6mmPPC widely regarded as one of the most naturally accurate cartridges ever made is a kissing cousin in design to the “Russian Short”. Also Ak’s aren’t accurate because of their designed loose tolerances. The good side of this is it allows for their legendary reliability.


47 posted on 05/11/2007 10:17:50 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: Yardstick

No, the FAL is a symbol of the free world, in fact it was called “The Right arm of the Free world” and for good reason. Heck of a gun and if it was picked over the M14 our military would have used it for many years.


48 posted on 05/11/2007 10:20:17 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: Thunder90

I thought Iran was using G3’s built in Iran? Heck of a good .308 battlerifle in it’s own right.


49 posted on 05/11/2007 10:22:19 PM PDT by LoneStarLegend78
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To: mdittmar

The shift from AK to AR is a sign they are becoming professionals.


50 posted on 05/11/2007 10:29:16 PM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: investigateworld

I think that is what we are seeing with this, they aren’t planning on staying third world. AK to AR is a cultural shift in its self.


51 posted on 05/11/2007 10:35:37 PM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: Jacob Kell

I remember seeing a semi load of M-16s that had been captured from Salvadoran guerillas. Many of them had the mag housing corroded badly. There were a series of photos of a Vietnamese “arms dump” on some site a couple of years ago that would make a collector cry. Huge heaps of rotting, rusting guns of every type just piled up in an open field. Most of the wood stocks were rotted clean away.


52 posted on 05/11/2007 10:36:01 PM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: Dead Dog

Poland still uses a design based on the AK, and they are professional.


53 posted on 05/11/2007 10:56:25 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Dead Dog
Okay, now that makes a lot of sense. For us who were raised in the Christian Faith, we see Iraq as a land of plotting and intrigue (see Book of Ester, Old Testament, Bible, Holy, 1 ea.)

Just could be....

54 posted on 05/11/2007 10:59:48 PM PDT by investigateworld (The BP guys will do more Prison Time than the Worst Jap POW camp commander,thanks W)
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To: LoneStarLegend78
My understanding is that the very pronounced taper of the 7.62x39 negatively affects it's accuracy and that 6mm PPC is a more straightwalled cartridge. Of course that taper also is partly responsible for the AK's reliability, making it easier for the cartridge to load and extract.

As for the quality of Wolf and other surplus ammo out there, it seems strange to me that one particular cartridge would do so poorly. The 7.62x54R is no slouch when it comes to accuracy and although I've never owned a 5.45x39, people that do report that AK's in that caliber generally shoot 2 to 3 MOA.

55 posted on 05/11/2007 11:17:51 PM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: LoneStarLegend78

Iran wants to distribute the KY-2000 to all frontline troops by 2010.


56 posted on 05/11/2007 11:20:35 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: investigateworld

WW is fine ammo. I have one AR that will not hold accuracy with it. Funny, been through it several times can find no reason. My bolt action stuff all loves it.


57 posted on 05/12/2007 6:46:52 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (NSDQ)
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To: Comus
Right.

I think the biggest issue here is marksmanship.

Sure, an AK-47 is nearly unjammable and the M-16 requires intense maintenance but one huge difference in our military and the terrorists is the ability to hit the target.

Clearly, the Iraqi’s think the M-16 gives them an advantage.

Philosophically, I was shocked to see this decision by the Iraqis but maybe it indicates they’re bonding well with our guys, embracing our tactics and training, and are moving in a positive direction?

58 posted on 05/12/2007 7:23:17 AM PDT by ryan71 (You can hear it on the coconut telegraph...)
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To: Dead Dog
I think that is what we are seeing with this, they aren’t planning on staying third world. AK to AR is a cultural shift in its self.

That's how it looks to me too. Adopting the M-16 says "upward mobility".

59 posted on 05/12/2007 7:35:55 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: ryan71
Philosophically, I was shocked to see this decision by the Iraqis but maybe it indicates they’re bonding well with our guys, embracing our tactics and training, and are moving in a positive direction?

And doesn't Israel use the M-16? I think it's significant that Iraq would be willing to be seen with the same weapon. In Al-Jazeera footage of Israeli soldiers committing "atrocities" against the Palestinians, the soldiers carry M-16s.

60 posted on 05/12/2007 7:46:43 AM PDT by Yardstick
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