Posted on 05/13/2007 5:00:34 PM PDT by freedom44
You said — “But these people are crazy angry. Sniffing out a fight seems to be in their blood, making a confrontation with the U.S. inevitable as well as providential.”
Well, I take it to mean the people who are in control and running the country, the ones who came in under a “guise” and fooled the public in Iran, by booting out the Shah of Iran. If you’re talking about these people, then yeah, they’re crazy angry. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a good representative for what they’re like.
But, I wouldn’t say that it pertains to the people, at large, in that country. They got tricked into booting the Shah, thinking that they were going to get something different and didn’t know that — if they thought that there was *some oppression* going on before — then they were going to “get it in spades” with the “new regime” of Islamic, fanatical, fascist oppression.
.
And then — “I’m thinking Carter is to America what Judas was to Christ. If it is predestined, someone must play the role of the betrayer.”
—
All I can say about that is “Why hasn’t he hung himself yet?” LOL...
Carter hangs himself every time he opens his mouth.
Time and migrations complicate politics. Iran is the preeminent example. Iran's history, diaspora and politics are as complex as they are fascinating. It's a truly global phenomenon with unparalleled beauty and filth. It includes so many events that resulted in excruciating pain, it's common for observers to second guess mullahs, monarchists and revolutionaries alike. One day, hindsight and nostalgia will be leveraged to define a prosperous future. I think that's the key; to accept the past as a lesson and start fresh.
Right now, the Iranian government is ascending and particularly dysfunctional and dangerous. That said, the Iranian diaspora has a responsibility to the nations in which they reside. They must tame their homeland before it is consumed in the crucible of war. Interestingly, it wouldn't be the first time in history a diaspora coalesced to achieve a healthy political vision. Maybe that's another key, for the Iranian diaspora to consider the history of other successful Diasporas in history.
Freedom 44 is absolutely right about WTC911 whose mind froze in a 60-year long time warp and never came out. Based on his comments over time.
FYI, I refuse to acknowledge or give credence to anything WTC911 says and has been saying like a stuck record.
Again, I don’t bother with this chap and Freedom 44 has now apparently stubbed his toe too.
You, however, must decide for yourself.
For those like WTC911 who think the Shah was worse than the Mullahs, take a look at this article and photos and heads up.
http://noiri.blogspot.com/2007/05/watch-mosques-in-your-neighborhood.html
WTC911 who is a radical anti-Bush, anti-Persian racist gets a free ride every SINGLE time.
I have two Persian friends that would gladly welcome the Shah back rather than their family and country men who are still there to live under the Muslim Totalitarians as they do now.
Being an American who lived two years in Iran under the Shah, and who really enjoyed this time, I profess to be a “Shahi”. I would like to see a Democracy with a representative Shah (similar to Britain) in Iran. However the only realistic outcome will be Republic in Iran. The Mullah regime is a dead ender. They are doomed to fail eventually either through a war or through internal change.
Those ignoramuses who spew anti-Shah garbage don’t knowanything about Iranian history.
The Shah was an authoritarian ruler. No doubt about it. Opponents were killed. But who were these opponents? Communists and Islamic terrorists. The Shah-rule meant social freedom and stability in the Middle East... and this without genocide or wars, contrary to bloody strongmen like Saddam or Assad senior.
He and his father prevented Iran from becoming a Soviet satellite or a Terrorist hellhole for half a century.
He was the most progressive, pro-American “Muslim” leader ever to this date.
Therefore he deserves our grateful memory... and therefore the imbecile Carter deserves our utmost contempt.
There is no doubt that Carter was our worst modern POTUS and that one of his major miscalculations was in Iran. But the truth is that it was the people of iran who threw the dictator and his secret police out, not us. Hundreds died in the streets protesting the regime. Carter decided not to militarily intervene in a process that began years earlier and came to a head on his watch.
The fact that the iranians who led the revolution were out-smarted by the ayatollahs and got worse than they had is irrelevent to Carter's actions (or better put, inaction). Nobody saw iran becoming what it has and all arguments along the line of 'well, weren't they better off under the shah' are nothing but mastubatory exercises in hindsight.
As for the shah himself, there never was a 'reza' dynasty. His father was a military officer from peasent stock who was installed by the British. The son was put into power by us in a coup in 1953 that nearly failed because of his cowardice.
This story is clear and there for anyone who wants to google 'operation ajax cia after action report'. The AAR was declassified and made public ten years ago under the FOIA. Kermit Roosevelt and Norman Schwarzkopf's father orchestrated the operation. Their report tells of a 'pathologically afraid' reza. It tells further of their having to use his sister to shame him into action. When the coup faltered in the face of resistance reza fled iran to Italy. He had to be literally dragged back. These are the facts as written by two unimpeachable American heroes in an inner-sanctum report that was never meant to see the light of day.
There are a number of iranian-in-exile freepers who have or have had the dead dictator prominently displayed on their profiles. They are using this forum to propogandize and push for American involvement in putting his billionaire son back on the throne. They regularly post breaking news about the revolution and use the occasional pro-American blogger (who may even be one of them) as further proof. The thing is, the news is always bogus and nothing changes.
This has been going on for years. Freepers with no real knowledge jump on the wagon and start beating the drum for us to invade iran and free these American-loving people from their captors. On three globally broadcast occasions Bush looked directly into the cameras and said to the iranians "When you stand we will stand with you." These were direct statements to the iranians to get things started. The first was in the SOTU Address in 2004, over three years ago....so far nothing.
I've written here often that the world would be a better place without the regime in iran. I have also written often that I would not endorse any American blood being shed for a people who have three times rejected Bush's clear challenge to stand up. The iranians found the courage to die to get rid of the shah. When they've had enough of the mullahs they will do it again.
As long as these iranian freepers (whose interest is iran, not America) keep posting their propoganda I will keep posting the truth. They can't argue the facts so they villify me as of all things a pro-islamist, pro-jihad traitor. What else can they do?
My profile states who I am and some of what I've done. There are a dozen freepers of long standing who know who know me personally and who know that my profile is accurate.
----------------------------------------------------
And that means what? When did your friends' families' get here? Were they part of or did they benefit from the shah's structure in any way? Go to Miami, you can find hundreds of Cubans who feel the same way about Batista. Go to Buenes Aires and you'll find Germans who feel that way about Hitler.
These reactions are emotional and are formed in what one had before the change that has been lost. Very human but not necessarily rational.
The inescapable fact is that enough iranians despised the shah and his SAVAK that they died in the streets getting rid of him (and I doubt that they gave their lives to please Jimmy Carter). Just because they ended up with a worse devil it doesn't mean that the first devil was good.
btw....don't believe the lies about my being pro-mullah. I have challenged the liars (who are persians - not Americans) to find any post of mine that supports the current regime. I've offered many times to quit FR forever if they could find even one. I'm still here, what does that tell you?
I'll repeat the offer here, knowing that they can't and that they know they can't.
Bump
FYI, I refuse to acknowledge or give credence to anything WTC911 says and has been saying like a stuck record.
Again, I don’t bother with this chap and Freedom 44 has now apparently stubbed his toe too.
You, however, must decide for yourself.
___________________________________________________________
Providing an accurate rendering of history (one that is supported by documentation) is not 'being stuck in a time warp'. The past is written, over and done. It can't be changed. What bothers you is that the facts of the history of the shah are ugly and that doesn't fit your scheme. So, like any good propogandist you villify the messenger because he tells a truth you don't want known.
Your cohort did not 'stub his toe', he violated FR rules regarding profanity and personal attacks. If he had refuted the documented history with facts rather than lies and name-calling then his posts would still be here.
My long standing offer is still valid...find any post of mine that in fact states the things that you and your persian cohorts ascribe to me and I'll leave. We both know that you can't. That leaves you with the tactic of villification and lies.
As I wrote earlier, ST, there are a number of long-term freepers who know me personally and who know that what is in my profile is accurate.
By all means, decide for yourself.
-----------------------------------------
Gee, maybe because the truth is respected around here...
I watched this, then looked at some of the other Iranian clips.
Let me be the first to apologize for the US for giving Iran rap music.
You said — “For those like WTC911 who think the Shah was worse than the Mullahs, take a look at this article and photos and heads up.”
—
It’s hard to imagine that there is anyone who could say that they prefer the “religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” of Islam over even the worst idealogy that can ever be imagined. It doesn’t get worse than this. Islam is a false and evil governmental system that masqueredes as a religion, in order to sneak into other countries under the guise of supposed “freedom of religion” — while it is really a plot to overthrow other governments, in place of its own government.
In terms of anything that the world has ever devised — Islam is at the very bottom of the garbage heap.
The world would be a better place if it totally obliterated all traces of Islam, destroyed anything to do with that insane and evil (and so-called) prophet call Mohammed. Can’t we have a few more cartoons made about him? Let’s make one of someone chopping off his head, while we’re at it.
The so-called (and false) god of Islam is really the devil of the Bible, the one who constantly fights against the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Can there be *anyone* who thinks that this “religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” called “Islam” is preferable to the very lowest and most evil form of any government ever conceived by mankind?
I would certainly like to hear from such a person...
You said — “The fact that the iranians who led the revolution were out-smarted by the ayatollahs and got worse than they had is irrelevent to Carter’s actions (or better put, inaction). Nobody saw iran becoming what it has and all arguments along the line of ‘well, weren’t they better off under the shah’ are nothing but mastubatory exercises in hindsight.”
—
Well, I don’t see it as the fascist Islamic clerics having out-smarted some others who led the revolution. It’s more like it was these very same clerics who were fomenting the revolution in the first place. They simply rode the wave that they worked at creating and came in and did away with many of these same people. They simply used them to set up an extremely oppressive and evil regime, the one that we see today. And this is nothing more than an outgrowth of the “religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” of Islam.
Secularizing the government was the best thing that the Shah could have done and maintained. That’s also our biggest mistake in Iraq — not totally and completely *secularizing* the government and removing all traces of Islam and the Koran from public office.
I say, bring the Shah back and oppress the way he did before (not him, since he’s dead, but his son will do, I’m sure). Oppress those Islamic clerics and the enemies of a secular government and haul them away, if you have to and get rid of them any way possible. That’s much perferable to the evil and despicable “religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” of Islam.
.
.
And then you said — “As for the shah himself, there never was a ‘reza’ dynasty. His father was a military officer from peasent stock who was installed by the British. The son was put into power by us in a coup in 1953 that nearly failed because of his cowardice.”
Heck..., there was nothing over there, before the Western powers carved it up into convenient lines and rectangles. So, that pertains to the entire Middle East. We need to do some “recarving” and get rid of that religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” of Islam, while we’re at it.
As far as coups, well, the entire record of the civilization of the world is one coup after another, one war after another — and if we’re going to have a coup and a war — let’s get someone in there that is going to work on our side...
.
.
You said — “There are a number of iranian-in-exile freepers who have or have had the dead dictator prominently displayed on their profiles.”
—
Well, I’m not even from that country and not an Iranian, having had nothing to do with them, never visited over there and have never been involved in their politics. Having said that — I must admit to have a fondness and a nostalgia for that same dead dictator, after viewing the likes of the present wicked, evil and despicable nature of the “religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy” of Islam and all those clerics that try to uphold and maintain it.
Heck..., he almost looks like George Washington to me, in that perspective....
.
.
And then you said — “I’ve written here often that the world would be a better place without the regime in iran. I have also written often that I would not endorse any American blood being shed for a people who have three times rejected Bush’s clear challenge to stand up. The iranians found the courage to die to get rid of the shah. When they’ve had enough of the mullahs they will do it again.”
—
In terms of the courage to get rid of the shah, you’re neglecting the evil and despicable nature of Islam in accomplishing that. It wasn’t so much the people naturally rising up and overcoming a super-powerful dictatorship. It was more like a crime-syndicate, in the form of a government in the guise of a religion, being 100 times more ruthless than any dictator could ever be. And now that this crime syndicate is in place, it’s 100 times more difficult to get rid of them, without a mighty battle.
So, there is no comparison at all, with the present religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy of Islam, controlling the people of Iran, compared to the Shah of Iran, secularizing the government and ruling over the people. It’s like a 100 to 1 difference. And I think the U.S. sees that, now, in what it’s doing (or “not doing”) over in Iraq, right now.
If the U.S. went into Iran and cleaned out the vermin of the religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy of Islam and killed every last one of those leaders and clerics and installed a secularized government in place of these present evil and despicable rulers, we would have a much more peaceful Middle East than we see right now. That’s what we should do — but of course, there are a bunch of people running around saying that this religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy of Islam is not “that” — but a “religion of peace”. Oh boy! is all I can say to that; how can one be so idiotic as to say that?
_____________________________________________________________
Here is a vivid example of the lies these shahistas tell. I have never said such a thing. In fact I have written many times that the iranians got worse than they had but they asked for it and it is up to them not us to change it. But, all these propogandists have is lies so what can you expect.
I will offer this again...find any post of mine where in I support the mullahs or write that they are a better deal than the shah and I'll leave FR forever.
This is the fourth time I've made this offer in two days. Why haven't any of you shahista propogandists provided my posts to support your lies? I'm here.
----------------------------------------------------------------
And if they won't fight the 'mighty battle' for themselves then why should we send our troops to bleed for them?
You said — “And if they won’t fight the ‘mighty battle’ for themselves then why should we send our troops to bleed for them?”
—
Well, for one reason, that religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy of Islam that is coming out of Iran, by way of all those evil and despicable clerics, oppressing and controlling the population of their country — is also the providing the means, methods and money to put the entire Middle East into a first-class uproar and take us all on the road to Armageddon. And I mean that very literally so and in a big war, bigger than we see now. That’s where we’re headed.
And they are also the ones who will fund and finance the same types of attacks on the U.S. and its interests (either in this country or overseas) continuously — that we’ve already seen in the form of 9/11 and the WTC — until they achieve their aims of controlling all the world for Islam (as they have very well made clear).
In addition, if that isn’t clear enough, they are going to be the ones who makes the real and concrete moves to destroy Israel and obliterate the Jews from the face of this earth. And if these moves are made in a real way, then we’ll be in that big war, too.
If that isn’t a clear enough bunch of reasons for wiping out that religio-fanatical-govermental-fascist idealogy — today (instead of waiting around for them to come at us tomorrow) well, you’ll never be moved to fight for anything, actually...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.