Cerberus-Chrysler, Labor Leaders to Meet

ap ^ | 5/15/07 | Tom Krisher

[Flavius]

ETROIT (AP) -- Cerberus Capital Management LP and leaders of the Chrysler Group will try to convince the leaders of the automaker's workers that their $7.4 billion deal will give workers better job security, restore Chrysler's health and not "strip and flip" the company by selling it off in pieces.

[Flavius]

his article is about the mythical three-headed guard dog. For other uses, see Cerberus (disambiguation).

In Greek mythology, Cerberus or Kerberos (Greek Κέρβερος, Kerberos, "demon of the pit") was the hound of Hades, a monstrous three-headed dog (sometimes said to have 50 or 100 heads) with a snake for a tail; he was also seen with a dragon's tail and serpentine mane.

Cerberus guarded the gate to Hades and ensured that spirits of the dead could enter, but none could exit (additionally no living person was to come into Hades). Among his siblings are; his sister, Chimera and his brother, Hydra. He is the offspring of Echidna and Typhon.

He was overcome several times:

* Hercules' final labour was to capture Cerberus, which he did by wrestling it into submission. * Orpheus used his musical skills to lull Cerberus to sleep. * Hermes put him to sleep with water from the river Lethe. * In Roman mythology, The Sybil of Cumae lulled Cerberus to sleep with drugged honeycakes in order to permit Aeneas fuller entry to the underworld. * In a Greek tale, Psyche also lulled Cerberus to sleep with drugged honeycakes.

In the Greek Oracle of the Dead at Cumae in southern Italy, the recently excavated subterranean shrine was found to contain chains fixed to the wall for three large dogs before the entrance to the shrine of Hades and Persephone. The three dogs would have represented Cerberus in this ancient temple.

[Vaquero]

Time for Cerberus/Chrysler to tell the unions to “Get outta Dodge!”.

(I work for a Cerberus owned company and find them fair and willing to invest for the future)

[fatnotlazy]

“...and not “strip and flip” the company by selling it off in pieces.”

***

To be honest, I think this is exactly what is going to happen. The new owners will set out what they want, the unions will decline, the company will be declared bankrupt and then it will be sold off.

[tcostell]

I’m still hoping for the day that folks like Cerberus develop a taste for airlines.

[Brilliant]

Detroit has changed it’s name to “Etroit?”

Not a bad move, given the supremecy of technology these days.

[TheBattman]

If the deal includes anything less than their current contract, then look for the UAW to throw a fit.

Personally, I would prefer to see the new owners tell the employees- we will match what the Toyota plant is giving. IF you don’t like it, don’t let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you.

But, being a Union controlled state (and anyone wonder why the import makers are choosing everywhere EXCEPT Michigan to produce autos?), this will never happen.

[Ouderkirk]

Diamler-Benz took a major bath on Chrysler and the company needs to be sold off in pieces. There is nothing redeeming in Chrysler’s newest offerings and nothing in the pipeline worth salvaging.

[Vaquero]

Chrysler was used as a cash cow for Dialmer...they made loads of dough on the purchase for many years, then raped the company and put up for quick sale....

you are either out of touch... or are a foreign car snob.

[alloysteel]

“...die, Chrysler, DIE!”

Just like Kaiser, Studebaker-Packard, and American Motors.

Remnants of the corporate entities may still exist after automobile production ceases. But they will never, never get back to making motor vehicles.

[showme_the_Glory]

I’m no MOPAR fan but these are good ideas for cars. Too bad the union and pension funds are such a huge part of the equation.

[ken21]

the unions are the problem.

look at the new toyota camry

and then look at any american pos.

[Vaquero]

the unions are the problem, you are right.

so are the foreign car buying snobs who have not looked at what American manufacturers have made since the mid 90s.

BTW these rice burners that you fawn over are made right here with UAW workers.....

[Ouderkirk]

I have owned many Chryslers beginning with my first car which was a ‘70 383 ‘Cuda. ‘77 Cordoba, ‘80 Cordoba, 87 Ramcharger, ‘94 LHS. After the ‘94 I switched to Toyota and will never buy another Detroit designed/built vehicle until they can match the quality of my 1996 4Runnner.

The 300 you show below, while attractive in print, is an unsightly box on the highway. The Challenger is a concept, that has come and gone...A day late and a dollar short. A 4-door Charger? you must be joking...when are they coming out with the 4 door ‘Cuda?

[ken21]

nissan is not union.

how do you explain the difference in attitude between japanese-owned assembly plants in the u.s.

and american-owned assembly plants?

[Vaquero]

I owned 2 mitsubishis in the 80’s (when American cars were at their zenith) then in the late ninties I went back to American cars and was presently surprised.

I own a 99 Durango and a 99 Intrepid which are both high mileage cars now that are still very good cars. I recently bought a new Mustang and it is a wonderful machine.

the 300 is gorgeous as is the charger (4 door charger? I agree with you).

The challenger WILL be out soon.

My idea of unsightly is those friggin rice burners with the air damn kits and fart can exhaust tips....strictly retard mobiles.

[Vaquero]

how do you explain the difference in attitude between japanese-owned assembly plants in the u.s. and american-owned assembly plants?

and you're an expert on attitude in assembly plants?

[Hot Tabasco]

Diamler-Benz took a major bath on Chrysler

I think the sale was pre-planned from the day they bought it. Max. 10 years ownership then sell.

I worked for a company owned by ThyssenKrupp (also a kraut company). Thyssen Steel merged with Krupp steel back around 1997 and then it was downhill for my company (The Budd Company) since then. We were sold to a Canadian company called Martinrea eff. 12/1/06, and our entire plastics division was sold last summer.

I remember a few years back when the CEO went into our Detroit stamping plant and delivered a message to the employees that there would be no further investment in the plant by ThyssenKrupp unless the plant could guarantee a 16% return on the money. Thats when the slashing and burning by the krauts began and good people were thrown out and some replaced by clueless kraut imports.

That was an absolutely outrageous demand that could not be met and the rest was history.......

[Ouderkirk]

My idea of unsightly is those friggin rice burners with the air damn kits and fart can exhaust tips....strictly retard mobiles.

The "tuner" cars are all the kids have these days. They cannot afford to purchase the antique iron of the late 60's. What else is there for them. They can't all drive mustangs and camaro's. The "fart can" as you put it is the most annoying thing I have ever experienced. The neighbor's kid has a Hyundai Tiberon which he bought new. Within two days he had one of those cans on it and a whole new exhaust. I got tired of hearing him tear-ass up the street at 2am. Took a can of that "Great Stuff Foam " and an extension straw, filled the muffler can with it. When he went to start his car at 2am (he works in a bakery so he leaves for work at 2am) the car wouldn't start. It left on a flatbed to the dealer. Within a couple of hours he and his buddy were back at the house retrieving the OEM exhaust system. Been very peaceful ever since. I have been driving the Pontiac Grand Prix as a rental car when I travel. I like it overall and they seem to have done a good job. The downside, is the 22MPG. This car should have gotten 27MPG. I was always a MOPAR man until that 94 LHS ( Lousy Hunk of S@!t) tranny dead @ 70K, dad a wicked toe in problem in the rear that was constantly being repaired and eating up tires. And on and on. Within three years I was done. Bought my first Toyota in '97 ( used '96 4Runner), and my son is driving my '96 4Runner while I have an '06 and the wife has an '02. Not a problem with any of them.

[-YYZ-]

“Took a can of that “Great Stuff Foam “ and an extension straw, filled the muffler can with it.”

Oh, now that’s not nice. I like it! I wouldn’t do it, but I’d like to do it to all the fart-canned ricers, straight-piped Harleys, and Flow-mastered pickups and Mustangs in my area. I appreciate a good exhaust system on a V8 as much as anyone, but not when I’m sitting at home trying to relax - the others annoy me in all cases.

[eraser2005]

Oh, the Camry that is having problems with its 6 speed automatic transmissions (autoweek story) and costs upwards of $30k when you can get a V6 AWD Ford Fusion that is similarly equipped (except its AWD instead of FWD) for $4-5 less? A car that has also been rated higher in reliability than the Camry by Consumer Reports? And a dead heat in initial quality by JD Power? Or you could get a Five Hundred - truedelta shows the 07 Camry in the shop three times as often as the 06 Five Hundred.

[Spktyr]

The Fusion is a worthy car. The 500 is a POS and drives poorly. We’ll see if the new one is any better, but I doubt it. Compare the Avalon to the 500, not the Camry, as that’s what Ford has positioned the 500 to compete with.

Ford marketing is still inept as always - they’re still mispromoting the Fusion, as we have discussed before.

[eraser2005]

“Ford marketing is still inept as always”

Couldn’t agree more with that statement...

But the 500 I would hardly call a POS. Have you actually driven one?

[Spktyr]

Yes, remember? We’ve had this discussion.

First 500 I drove literally scattered its transmission while we were on the test drive. The second one made funny noises and didn’t seem healthy at all.

I’ve rented a couple since then, and they’re a clear example of just how Quality Isn’t Job 1 at the 500 plant.

The 500 (now “New Taurus”), like the current Impala is a non-competitive entry in that market segment. In a segment that includes the RWD LX cars and the upcoming Pontiac G8 RWD, the FWD/weak AWD 500/Taurus with NO V8 is at a clear disadvantage. It’s not even cheap enough to offset the lack of power and wrong-wheel-drive.

[eraser2005]

When did 260 hp and 245 lb-ft become weak?

[sam_paine]

Hopefully they will fight back against the marxist unions with all their legacy costs and get American companies back on a fair footing with the foreign companies that have opnened up greenspace factories in America.

[Spktyr]

When that’s your top engine, the car weighs 3800 lbs, and the competition has:

Rear Wheel Drive with optional biased
340 horses and 390 pound-feet of torque as a top standard line engine with a 425 horsepower and 420 pound-feet of torque as the special production engine (in the case of the 300) or a 362-hp 6.0-liter V8 engine (in the G8?)

Then, 260hp and 245 lb/ft is weak.

[SoCal Pubbie]

“The 300 you show below, while attractive in print, is an unsightly box on the highway. “

Free Republic is reliable if for nothing else than a profusion of comments on car design from a legion of folks with no clue on the subject.

[Spktyr]

Er, should read “Rear Wheel Drive with optional RWD biased AWD.”

By the way, *everything* else in the class has more power. Even the Avalon, the car Ford modelled the Five Hundred on which is overdue for a refresh, has a 268hp/248lb/ft 3.5L engine that gets better fuel economy. Which is amusing because the Five Hundred up until *this* year had a *203* HP engine, and the Avalon’s had the 268hp engine since 2005. Ford couldn’t even better the Avalon’s power numbers with the refresh.

By the way, the Avalon weighs 300lbs LESS than the Five Hundred.

[pepsionice]

My bet is that the union will take a hard stand, and Ceberus will announce two immediate plant closings....and to move toward either Alabama or Mississippi for their new plants. The union will find almost no willingness to talk at the table. Chryslter got to this point because of huge internal costs....which Ceberus isn’t about to absorb.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Nothing says “Grandma” quite like the Toyota Avalon.

[eraser2005]

That “competition” also costs $4k-8k more. It also has considerably worse fuel economy.

Sure, the 300C does 0-60 in 6.3 vs. the 7.61 for the Five Hundred (the Taurus has not had its 0-60 released yet, and as it has 30+% more power, you can expect it to break the Five Hundred’s mark easily).

You have to drop to the 300 with the 3.5L before you’re competitive at all in price, and then you’re considerably slower than the 500/Taurus, with still-worse fuel economy.

And you’ll have a coarser engine. Ward’s named the new 3.5L in the Taurus as one of their 10 best, saying “The Duratec 35 is a brilliant performer, convincingly developed in all areas... Performance and refinement at this level, on regular unleaded, sets a new standard for V-6s”

[Spktyr]

More competitors:

2005 Pontiac Bonneville GXP: top engine was a 4.6L Northstar making 275 hp, 300 ft·lbf torque. Curb weight was 3745 lbs.

2007 Chevy Impala: Top engine is a 303hp, 323lb/ft 5.3L V8. Curb weight is 3764lbs.

When that’s the competition, the 260hp Five Hundred looks, and is, weak.

[Spktyr]

“Buick Regal” or now “Buick Lucerne”.

[Non-Sequitur]

The new owners will set out what they want, the unions will decline, the company will be declared bankrupt and then it will be sold off.

At which point I believe the federal government and the U.S. taxpayers become responsible for the pension plan obligations. Thanks a lot.

[eraser2005]

If you want to believe so, fine.

I’ll take it with a grain of salt when it comes from someone who thinks 1980s Jaguars were infinitely more reliable than the modern ones. :)

[Ouderkirk]

comments on car design from a legion of folks with no clue on the subject

So you're the arbiter of the fine points of automotive style?

Get a grip. The Chrysler 300 IS an unsightly box on the road. There is nothing new in the style or engineering of that P.O.S. Retro cars are when the design department has gone bankrupt of ideas.

[Dead Dog]

permit Aeneas fuller entry to the underworld

A little insight into what is in store for the Unions.

[Spktyr]

Sorry, no. The competition is not more expensive than the Five Hundred in general. Example - the Chevy Impala SS.

Per Edmunds:
2007 Ford Five Hundred: $23,035-$28,460
2008 Ford Taurus: $23,245-$28,695
2007 Chevrolet Impala: $21,255-$28,235 <-cheaper!

When the competition is CHEAPER and has MORE POWER than you do, that argument goes right out the window.

As for the competition getting worse fuel economy? From fueleconomy.gov:

Impala SS: 18 city, 27 highway, 21 overall
Five Hundred AWD: 19 city, 25 highway, 21 overall

The Five Hundred is NOT competitive.

[Non-Sequitur]

My bet is that the union will take a hard stand, and Ceberus will announce two immediate plant closings....and to move toward either Alabama or Mississippi for their new plants.

If they're going to close plants and move elsewhere then why would they go to Alabama or Mississippi when they can go to Mexico or China where the costs are even lower?

[truth_seeker]

“...so are the foreign car buying snobs who have not looked at what American manufacturers have made since the mid 90s.”

A lot of your foreign car snobs were once loyal American car owners.

But when they had had one too many disappointments, with poorly engineered and built American vehicles, they tried a Japanese alternative, and were served well.

Turning that around requires outstanding vehicles. So far, most American offerings are NOT better than the foreign options.

And BETTER is what it will require to earn back lost market share.

[Spktyr]

Um, you forget that I also own a “modern” Jaguar, a 2000 XKR. And the 87 is still more reliable than the 2000.

You also might want to take a look at http://www.thelurch.com/.

The 4.0 and 4.2 V8s are known to have problems with things like premature timing chain failure and the fly by wire throttle body randomly failing, leaving you dead on the road.

At least the old Series III would usually limp home even with battle damage, or they would give clear warning signs that something was badly wrong and about to break. The newer cars? Not so much... the X-Type is subject to a mass plague of transaxle failures, and is also underpowered.

[gogeo]

Fantasy based reporting...Cerberus doesn't have to convince the UAW of anything. If anything, a message was sent to the UAW by Daimler...they were seriously irritated about the refusal of the UAW to grant equivalent concessions on health care. Maybe they will enjoy dealing with Cerberus better.

There was a quote from some professor type asserting the UAW had Creberus over a barrel...another from a UAW member about how the UAW would "protect" them.

They are in serious denial...find some popcorn and some ear plugs.

[Tribune7]

Time for Cerberus/Chrysler to tell the unions to “Get outta Dodge!”.

Yeah. Las Vegas is callllllling.

[admiral52]

I am on business travel and haven’t gotten the full story yet . . . I heard that 80% or so of Chrysler is being sold off. Anyone know if Jeep staying or going?

[Spktyr]

80% ownership of the Chrysler group was sold. That means that Cerberus has 80% ownership of the Chrysler brands. They’re not going to pull a BMW/Rover and separate out the different brands at all.

[eraser2005]

Wow...

Comparing fuel economy of an AWD to that of a FWD?

[SoCal Pubbie]

At least I am a designer, have an art background, and know enough about automotive styling trends to realize the bland and boring offerings of the typical Japanese car makers are not exactly cutting edge.

[Spktyr]

No, I’m comparing the top level model to the top level model.

Of course, if you want to compare just the V6 FWD Impala to the V6 FWD Five Hundred, we can do that, too.

All 07 models:
Five Hundred FWD: 21/29 overall 29. Yearly fuel cost: $1908
Impala 3.9L V6: 21/31 overall 29. Yearly fuel cost: $1908
Impala 5.3L V8: 18/27 overall 21. Yearly fuel cost: $2321

Fuel price delta - $413, assuming regular gas at $3.05/gal, premium at $3.25/gal.

OK. Now, let’s look at price, for loaded vehicles:
08 Taurus (renamed Five Hundred): $28,695
07 Impala: $28,235
Price difference: $460

So, let’s see. If you buy a loaded Impala with a V8, it costs *less* than the Taurus/500, the increased fuel consumption of the V8 doesn’t enter the economic picture until well into the second year of ownership, and the power on hand could save your butt from having an accident.

Given that? Yes, 260hp is weak, and the 500 still is not competitive. Especially since most of the other cars in the segment have the marketing cachet of being able to have an optional V8.

[fatnotlazy]

Believe me, I wouldn’t want the bankruptcy scenario at all. I hope I’m wrong. But my gut unfortunately tells me Chrysler is not long for this world.

[Flavius]

all Japanese cars seem to draw their inspiration from this thing

i am only interested in toyota for a sporting reason of reliability, friends have dodge products new and in pieces

i am not sure how you have basically same parts manufacturer but when you put it in different cars they dont last as long