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BIN LADEN'S FATWA (Why Ron Paul was Factually Correct) (UBL cited Iraq in 1996 Declaration of War)
PBS Online Newshour ^ | Unknown | PBS

Posted on 05/15/2007 8:04:25 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

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To: jonrick46

Thanks. But I was just stating the facts.


201 posted on 05/16/2007 10:14:05 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Paul’s obviously clueless about Islamic terrorists. Apparently, so are you.


202 posted on 05/16/2007 10:15:17 AM PDT by tabsternager
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To: DreamsofPolycarp

I know; sometimes its hard to stomach. That’s why I got to the Mises Institute Blog (blog.mises.org) and the LewRockwell Blog (blog.lewrockwell.com), sister sites. It’s commentary from an Old Right, Paleolibertarian perspective.


203 posted on 05/16/2007 10:15:49 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Capitalizt
In response to:

Paul did not say it was “our” fault (the American people)...but rather the past 30 years of US CIA and military policy in the region. 9-11 could not be avoided. The question is...how do we stop it from happening again? If you get stung by a bee, do you run around flailing your arms trying to knock down every beehive you come across? (brute force).. or do you burn the hive up from within (intelligence and counter terror).. It’s a question of tactics. Paul disagrees with the Normandy-esque invasions favored by the neocons, and I think he is right.

The most sense I've heard out of anyone on this forum so far!

204 posted on 05/16/2007 10:15:59 AM PDT by AlphaJuno
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To: Minn
Thanks for putting into words the reality of the situation....

How anyone believes that we would not be targeted, even if not involved in the Middle East, is rediculous....

OBL and AQ have made it clear....removing us from the ME is only the first step in setting up their fantasy caliphate....Once in place, they plan to move outwards....this has been stated ad-nausea um by AQ and company....

Leaving the ME might secure a fictions peace for a period of time....but to think that is end all of this confrontation is pure fantasy....

You would think people around here would have learned from Neville Chamberlin.....but than again, many Americans have already forgotten about 9-11....

We best start understanding that we are the ultimate target....whether that be today or 10 years from now....
205 posted on 05/16/2007 10:21:35 AM PDT by PigRigger (Donate to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org - The Troops have our front covered, let's guard their backs!)
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To: ZULU
Facts like Al-Qaida's own claims and justifications?

The Civil War and WWI were unjust wars that were fought to increase the size and scope of Government; the Civil War was NOT over Slavery, but over the South's Constitutional right to secede. Lincoln the Dictator did a bang-up job of birthing big government.

WWI - We had no dog in that fight, and we lost hundreds of thousands of men for no good reason. It did, however, allow the USG to try out strong controls on the economy for the first time.

A restriction of civil liberties was not necessary during WWII, with overwhelming support. The threat of Japanese subversives is entirely unfounded.

206 posted on 05/16/2007 10:21:48 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Click here: PETRODOLLAR & IRAN & IRAQ: LINK and scroll down to the heading "THE PETRODOLLAR BACKGROUND" but the whole thing is a good read. Some of you may agree, others disagree strongly. Fine. But as Buchannan warned some time ago the consequences of being in the middle east (but why must we be there, maybe it's a good reason, but why), and debate now whether they hate us for being there (again why are we there), or because of freedom and jazz music (Michael Savage had interesting things to say about this a while back), there are other possibilities besides those red herrings that could be looked at and I think the author of that article is looking at a likely one.
207 posted on 05/16/2007 10:22:16 AM PDT by Jason_b
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To: ZULU
1. My tagline is proof of my NeoCon past. Check my archives if you wish.

2. The Athenian fleet was conducting an evacuation of Athens, when the Athenian Commander, Themistocles, interpreted the Oracle as saying that they should build a wooden wall to save them. Themistocles believed the wooden wall as a line of ships, so he decided to defend Athens on the sea.

3. Interestingly, you mentioned the Spartans. The Spartans wanted to go back to Peloponnese and defend Greece on the ground, which would have failed. If they had listened to the Spartan Generals, Greece would have been snuffed out in its infancy.

208 posted on 05/16/2007 10:28:55 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Jason_b

Actually, Ron Paul is a big believer in the Petrodollar and “Dollar Hegemony” theory.


209 posted on 05/16/2007 10:30:31 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Russia also has ruthless internal opposition; they'll gas their own citizens to kill Chechen rebels for God's sake. How is that deterrent working out for Russia?

Pretty well - when was the last time you heard of a massive al Qaeda attack on Russia? 99% of their problems are with domestic insurrectionists. And Russians killed almost a million Muslims in Chechnya in just the latest iteration, not to mention lorded it over half-a-dozen Muslim countries for centuries, before they finally broke free with the dissolution of the Soviet empire. How many millions died during the Russian conquest of the Kazakhs, the Uzbeks, the Tajiks, et al? And yet al Qaeda hasn't really done very much in Chechnya - because the Russians will go after their families in their home countries. Al Qaeda attacks the US and not the Russians to the same degree not because it has more grievances against us, but because they see us as weak, and the Russians as ruthless and vengeful.

210 posted on 05/16/2007 10:32:01 AM PDT by Zhang Fei
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To: Remember_Salamis

If you say so!


211 posted on 05/16/2007 10:33:21 AM PDT by Beckwith (dhimmicrats and the liberal media have chosen sides -- Islamofascism)
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To: Remember_Salamis; Arcy
Goes Giuliani think al-Qaida chose to attack the US by throwing darts at a map???

Do you think for a second if Paul gets his arse handed to him PR-wise that it makes any difference what he "wanted" to get across if he's unable to defend himself (or if you are unable to get your point across in 3,000 words or less?)

Imagine what the AlQaeda propaganda machine would do to the inept Paul.

212 posted on 05/16/2007 10:35:24 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Desperately Seeking Freedom
Ron Paul: I’m suggesting we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it.

So the problem with our foreign policy is that we're not listening to al-Qaeda enough? Perhaps we should run our foreign policy initiates by bin Laden so we can make sure it doesn't ruffle his feathers too much; maybe give them veto power on the Security Council.

Paul has no business in any position of authority. You should get back to your buddies at Daily Kos so you can start poring over the "root causes" of terrorism. Moron.

213 posted on 05/16/2007 10:36:03 AM PDT by GunRunner (Rudy 2008, because conservatives can't win.)
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To: Remember_Salamis; Arcy; Desperately Seeking Freedom
I'm going to repeat a post on a different thread and see what the Paul Unrealist's answer is here.
Suppose we "pull-in," give Israel to Iran and just quit everywhere. Switch to all nuclear energy. And suppose we have a manhattan project for autos, and tank the entire world oil industry, stop CO2 emissions, and save the world.

Hollywood will still exist.

McDonalds will still exist.

Dell and HP will still make money off of laptops used by terrorists and poor nations worldwide because they make the vast majority of pcs worldwide.

And AlQaueda will still whip up hatred for America because of the next Palestinian/Kosovo/Kurdish racial disaster. They will in fact hate us EVEN MORE if our standard of living is the same or even higher, while our anti-oil economy will defund and destabilize all of the Saudi Arabian/UAE 'dictocracies' which keep some semblance of order over there.

America had a choice to make---and Bush had to punch the ticket. God bless him for having the balls to get out of bed in the morning instead of hiding under the isolationist sheets.

Ron Paul's plattitudes are those of a perpetual candidate. They evaporate when they contact the first intelligence briefing in the Whitehouse. Don't be a sucker.

214 posted on 05/16/2007 10:39:29 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: sam_paine
Don't worry, Paul torpedoed himself last night. Any candidate whose main priority with al-Qaeda is listening to them rather than killing them doesn't belong in any position that involves a basic understanding of foreign policy.

I've heard him speak about middle east policy on the cable news shows and all I heard was standard lefty hand wringing over the plight of the poor Palestinians. The guy truly has no clue.

215 posted on 05/16/2007 10:41:05 AM PDT by GunRunner (Rudy 2008, because conservatives can't win.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
“Facts like Al-Qaida’s own claims and justifications? “

They are our enemies and they have stated these facts. But even more, there is preponderance of historical evidence backed up by the reams of Islamic scripture which clearly set out these goals. Islam was never, or hardly ever, voted into power anywhere. In the overwhelming number of cases, it was spread as it is now, through the use of brute force and power. It is, as it is presently constituted, a far greater threat to your liberties than any other.

“The Civil War and WWI were unjust wars that were fought to increase the size and scope of Government; the Civil War was NOT over Slavery, but over the South’s Constitutional right to secede. Lincoln the Dictator did a bang-up job of birthing big government. “

O.K. So I see where you stand on that one.

From a purely academic perspective, the South had every legal right to secede. There is nothing in the Constitution to bar secession and secession is not rebellion. Slavery itself may not have been the driving force which motivated most southerners to resist northern aggression, but neither secession nor northern aggression would have occurred without the issue of slavery.

Lincoln, like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, recognized the inconsistency of the institution of slavery with the premises of the Declaration of Independence. Either black slaves were not men, or the principles on which our Republic were founded were fraudulent.

Had Lincoln not fought the Civil War, a great national tragedy from any perspective, two weaker nations would have evolved, and the weaker of the two would have been the agrarian, slave dominated south ruled by a class of cryptoaristocrats. The intervention by France in Mexico might very well have succeeded and the French might very well have taken over the South and later threatened the north.

The South had many sympathetic figures in the Civil War - Lee, Stewart, etc, the North had few. But the martyred President who would have prevented the kind of brutal retaliation of the radical Republicans during Reconstruction, was one of them.

But even more than that, the last, best hope of humanity would have ended if the South had been successful in its secession.

“WWI - We had no dog in that fight, and we lost hundreds of thousands of men for no good reason. It did, however, allow the USG to try out strong controls on the economy for the first time. “

Actually, I agree with you here, but that doesn’t change the validity of my premise - in order to successfully win a war, you have to make temporary accommodations with certain liberties as long as those liberties are restored after wards.

“A restriction of civil liberties was not necessary during WWII, with overwhelming support.”

But we had them nonetheless and could not have won without them.

“The threat of Japanese subversives is entirely unfounded.”

The way Japanese Americans were treated was inexcusable, and I wouldn;t even attempt to defend it. Many of the Japanese interned in prison camps were not citizens. But they had lived in worked here, in some cases for generations and would have gladly BECOME American citizens but were denied that right because of racial based laws.

Islam is not a race, although most Muslims are Arabs or Indonesians. The target is a belief system like communism and taking action against practitioners of an enemy belief system is fully justified.

216 posted on 05/16/2007 10:41:44 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Remember_Salamis

Ron Paul and this writer can share the Maroon Award.


217 posted on 05/16/2007 10:43:07 AM PDT by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: Remember_Salamis

I know, but some Athenians, to their misfortune, did NOT evacute Athens. Those who did, chose to make an accomodation with their right to remain there in order to win.

I also know about the Spartan plans to fortify the Isthmus of Corinth. But Themistocles, the man who engineered the victory,was wise enough to argue for a nominal Spartan Admiral to command the allied Greek fllet even though Spartan knowledge of naval warfare was limited. He did this to assure their cooperation.

Did you know what happened to Themistocles after the Persian War?

He was ostracized and exiled by Athens and wound up a suppliant at the Court of the “Evil” Persian King, who
made him one of his courtiers and supported him for life.


218 posted on 05/16/2007 10:46:46 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: DesScorp
Well except it was phones this time wasn't it? Poor ol' Sean Hannity and Carl Cameron were fit to be tied. The issue is the media understands too well what's happening and they're doing all they can to toss Paul under the bus. Paul is against the establishment. Not just Democrats or Republicans but the establishment. The day after he would be elected, half the government would be out of business, not to mention the hangers on and those who have made the livelihoods off the government in some fashion.

I texted in once for Paul and that's it. It wasn't 'gaming' the system, it's a lot of people fed up where the Republicans have taken us

219 posted on 05/16/2007 10:51:57 AM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: Remember_Salamis

The Civil War was about slavery, but not about its abolition. Too many Southerners had let the institution —define their way of life. They wanted to secede not to keep slavery but to guard their economic system. The North—really the Northwest— had basically blocked its expansion to the west and inhibited its growth to the South. The firebreathers underestimated Lincoln and so did the Southern Whigs who thought they knew him. They sure didn’t expect him to use the navy to blockade the southern coasts, a blatant violation of international law, in part because they didn’t think that the Brits would fail to break that blockade. What really made thiat impssible was not American anti-slavery feelings but British anti-slavery feelings. After their decision to abolish slavery in their empire, they weren’t about to encourage any Southern American poaching in middle-America.


220 posted on 05/16/2007 10:56:30 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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