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BIN LADEN'S FATWA (Why Ron Paul was Factually Correct) (UBL cited Iraq in 1996 Declaration of War)
PBS Online Newshour ^ | Unknown | PBS

Posted on 05/15/2007 8:04:25 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

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To: MitchellC
...who in the CIA has come forth admitting to have funded/trained/whatevered OBL in Afghanistan?

That'll be in the classified operation histories. Understandably, its hard to imagine Langley rushing to take credit for OBL.
Plausible deniability isn't a punchline at the CIA.

According to the unclassified 1998 CIA biography of bin Laden: By 1984 Osama was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar (MAK) --which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

MAK was funded and supplied by the Pakistan’s state security services (ISI). The CIA didn't trust the native tribal factions in Afghanistan, --quite probably they couldn't understand --or "read" the loyalties of the rivalry-ridden natives.
But for whatever reason, and as a matter of public record, the CIA was willing to deal with the ISI, and let the ISI pick the out the good chaps from the bad.

As Arabs militants flocked to Afghanistan from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Saudi Arabia; The ISI gave them money and guns, too.
One of those groups being Osama bin Laden's MAK.

By the end of the Afghan war in 1989, with the Soviets ousted from Afghanistan, bin Laden was welcomed home by the Saudi monarchy. --But like many other Afghan vets, or Afghanis as the Arab mujahedeen called themselves, Osama bin Laden had gone radical.
In fact, while he returned to his family’s construction business, bin Laden had already split from the relatively conventional MAK in 1988 and established a new group, al-Qaida, that included many of the more extreme MAK members he had met in Afghanistan.

In 2001, Al Qaeda's number two leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, confirmed that the Afghanis did not receive any U.S. funding during the war in Afghanistan. Although technically correct, al-Zawahiri failed to note the funding provided by the ISI, or the funding provided by the Saudi royals, matching the CIA dollar-for-dollar, passing thru the same ISI conduit.

Pakistan is not a rich country and little known for waging covert wars, but their ISI is not above a little under the table dealing.
Especially when the big dogs like the United States and the Saudis are playing ... and paying.

So do you think it was tax-dollars from the CIA or petro-dollars from Saudi Arabia? Or was it a little double dealing by the ISI?

Or just a classic case of plausible deniability?

251 posted on 05/17/2007 5:20:58 AM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: GunRunner
Don't worry, Paul torpedoed himself last night.

Oh, not worried about Paul. What I -am- worried about is how gullible so many people in the general population and on FR are for a perpetual candidate's garbage.

They rag on Bush for taking risk and dealing with hard problems, but they love listening to an idiot who talks big in the comfort of knowing he will NEVER have to deal with it for real.

252 posted on 05/17/2007 5:48:29 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Desperately Seeking Freedom
Why aren’t they attacking Monaco and Costa Rica and Switzerland, too?

Israel. Spain. France. The UK. Australia. The Philippines. Do I need to keep going? OK. Sudan. Chad. Even China.

They're not attacking us because we're "over there." They're attacking us BECAUSE WE ARE NOT MUSLIMS AND THEY ARE. They hate us BECAUSE WE DO NOT PRAY TO MECCA. They hate us BECAUSE WE DO NOT LIVE UNDER SHARI'A. What's your boy Ron Paul going to do about that, put on a shalmar kaweez, start praying to Mecca five times a day, rename himself Abu al-Libertarian, and start stoning adulteresses in Lafayette Park?

I like Ron Paul, I really do. If it wasn't for his foreign policy, I could almost vote for the guy. And I even agree that the way we got into this is unconstitutional. But we ARE in it. What do we do now, cut and run with Iraq half-done? We can't change the past. We can't change the fact that the proper declarations of war weren't issued in Afghanistan and Iraq. We can't change the fact that we've got one boot deep in the Iraqi tarpit and we're taking casualties even as we're slowly, slowly turning the country on the right path.

Paul seems not to grasp that we could abandon Israel to the jackals, withdraw every single member of our military from within a thousand miles of the Middle East, and adopt a totally hands-off policy toward all Islamic states, and it wouldn't do a damn thing except strengthen both the Sunni and the Shi'ite extremists. Then one day, somewhere down the road (and not that far), we'd be dealing with a much greater threat, one that COULD "topple or seriously damage" us.

His foreign policy is at best breathtakingly naive, and at worst suicidal. Isolationism did not work between the World Wars, and seventy years later, with the world so much more interconnected, it's not going to work now. And yes, I know he didn't mean that we deserved it, he was listing the alleged "causes." He really trusts what OBL himself said? Please.

}:-)4

253 posted on 05/17/2007 6:25:16 AM PDT by Moose4 (Deport 'em. I don't need landscaping and I'll pay more for lettuce.)
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To: Desperately Seeking Freedom
Do amy of you all actually believe we are being attacked because they hate our freedom?

Nope, just like it is absurd for us to try and force "democracy" upon Arabs, who have never had it and are not capable of maintaining it.

254 posted on 05/17/2007 6:59:45 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Remember_Salamis

Rudy and Ron are both wrong. They don’t hate us because we have women’s rights. They attack us because they know we are weak and divided, and the goal of Islam is to dominate the world. They can attack us anywhere, and retreat into the shadows, and watch as we fight amongst ourselves. The President has failed because he did not bring sufficient brutal force to bear, and because he treats his own soldiers as criminals when they make a mistake. We succeeded in WWII because we did whatever was necessary—including unspeakable horrors against civilians (100,000 on a single night in Tokyo essentially burned to death, ditto in Dresden)—in order to utterly destroy the enemy. We have not only shown no stomach for such a battle against Islam, we whine about “Arab democracy” and fear for the reaction of the “Arab street”, which demonstrates only weakness to the enemy.


255 posted on 05/17/2007 7:11:36 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Chgogal

Hey - I was responding to the guys ENTIRE post, not just one little sentence...I know its common practice on here for people to pick apart responses to make it look like something it isn’t.... He used a metaphor that if your stung by a bee, do you go flailing around trying to knock down every beehive you see? Or do you use more strategic tactics? We will not win the war on terror by just bombing and invading other countries. That was my point, and has nothing to do with “surrender”.


256 posted on 05/17/2007 9:08:32 AM PDT by AlphaJuno
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To: MitchellC; FARS
This is not a matter of opinion. I am simply asking you whether or not you know of anyone within the CIA actually having admitted to working with OBL - or even within the ISI, or even OBL’s mujaheddin - not whether you’ve read an article or a thousand that repeats the same old unsubstantiated innuendo.

Why don't you prove me wrong in stead of just an opinion?

Fars would you please link the research site to this lady on Jimmy Carter involvement with OBL? I have been away and lost the link.
Thanks Much!

257 posted on 05/17/2007 10:48:00 AM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT (Waiting on GOD...)
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To: dread78645; DAVEY CROCKETT; FARS
My doubts about a direct CIA-OBL dealing come mostly from Richard Miniter's work. It doesn't matter much to me either way - but I do hate to see people use the allegation of a link to try to prove that America "had it coming," in whatever way, without at least trying to prove that the link really existed.

Here's one article written by Miniter that challenges the link. Allegedly OBL's funds came from the Saudis matching US dollars, not actual US dollars.

To say that the ISI may have mixed the funds is a far cry from proving that the US supplied OBL "with the best of the best military equipment we had," as Davey Crockett wrote. I await the weblink from FARS though.

258 posted on 05/17/2007 12:12:53 PM PDT by MitchellC
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To: Remember_Salamis
Well, one possibility, one espoused by Pat Buchanan (among others), is that the Nazis and the Communists would have wiped each other out, preventing a Cold War.

Anything is possible. You think Stalin would have defeated Hitler without US support?

I think the Brits would have had a problem without US support.

Or do you think the negotiated agreement subsequent to their declaring war on us, would have allowed us to continue supporting Hitler's enemies?

259 posted on 05/17/2007 12:29:33 PM PDT by SJackson (Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die, R. Garroway, UNWRA director, 8/58)
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To: MitchellC
Here's one article written by Miniter that challenges the link.

I'm familar with Mr. Miniters work.

from the article:

In the course of researching my book on Bill Clinton and bin Laden, I interviewed Bill Peikney, who was CIA station chief in Islamabad from 1984 to 1986, and Milt Bearden, who was CIA station chief from 1986 to 1989. These two men oversaw the disbursement for all American funds to the anti-Soviet resistance. Both flatly denied that any CIA funds ever went to bin Laden. They felt so strongly about this point that they agreed to go on the record, an unusual move by normally reticent intelligence officers. Mr. Peikney added in an e-mail to me: “I don’t even recall UBL [bin Laden] coming across my screen when I was there.” ...

There were two entirely separate rebellions against the Soviets, united only by a common communist enemy. One was financed by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states and was composed of Islamic extremists who migrated from across the Muslim world. They called themselves “Arab Afghans (search).” Bin Laden was among them. When the Saudis agreed to match U.S. contributions dollar-for-dollar, the sheikhs insisted that their funds go exclusively to the “Arab Afghans,” possibly including bin Laden. Meanwhile, U.S. funds went exclusively to the other rebellion, which was composed of native Afghans. Mr. Bearden told me: “I challenge anyone to give any proof that we gave one dollar to any Arab Afghans, let alone bin Laden.”
Pretty convincing so far, CIA station chiefs Bill Peikney and Mitt Bearden denied that any CIA funds ever went to bin Laden. But Peter Bergen, CNN journalist and adjunct professor at Johns Hopkins University interviewed Pakistani Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf, who ran ISI's Afghan operation between 1983 and 1987:
"It was always galling to the Americans, and I can understand their point of view, that although they paid the piper they could not call the tune. The CIA supported the mujahideen by spending the taxpayers' money, billions of dollars of it over the years, on buying arms, ammunition, and equipment. It was their secret arms procurement branch that was kept busy. It was, however, a cardinal rule of Pakistan's policy that no Americans ever become involved with the distribution of funds or arms once they arrived in the country. No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen, and no American official ever went inside Afghanistan".
Hmmm. Bill & Mitt's story isn't quite as air-tight as Miniter makes it sound.

Allegedly OBL's funds came from the Saudis matching US dollars, not actual US dollars.

Allegedly yes, but both the Saudi money and CIA money went through the ISI funnel. And like Brigadier Yousaf said :"No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen", ...
So how would the CIA know who got the funds and arms?

I guess our children or grandchildren will get to read about it in the declassified histories in 2101.

260 posted on 05/17/2007 2:55:23 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: MitchellC
try to prove that America “had it coming,”

That is not my point at all. My point was/is and will be that Bin laden in HIS thinking stated that HE was unhappy with America’s foreign policy.

I don't know what your point or misunderstanding is and don't even want to know, as my post wasn’t to you at all.

Never ever have I thought felt or said we “had it coming” those are YOUR and Bin Laden’s words. Not Mind. I spend all my time on FR on the World Terrorism thread sharing information and news. GOOD GREIF

261 posted on 05/17/2007 9:16:03 PM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT (Waiting on GOD...)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT

That was not the intention behind my comment. (Although I do think that Ron Paul’s comments at the debate, particularly the part drawing moral equivalence between Muslim terrorism and Americans defending ourselves in a hypothetical attack from the Chinese, were dangerously close to the “we had it coming” way of thinking.)


262 posted on 05/18/2007 1:21:19 AM PDT by MitchellC
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To: Remember_Salamis
So Ron Paul has more in common with Osama Bin Laden then he does with Ronald Reagan and you think that HELPS him?

Simply amazing how the very people who would be screaming “Traitor” if someone on the Left said this are busy manufacturing excuses for this lunatic.

Tehran Paul is actively propagandizing for Al Qeda. He not only is unfit for the Presidency, he is unfit to stay in Congress.

263 posted on 05/19/2007 10:23:48 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (If you will try being smarter, I will try being nicer.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
India and Russia have been attacked. China actually has seen event it has described as terrorism. Whether this is islamist terrorism or justified Uyghur national resistance is another story.
However, you are utterly ignorant.
264 posted on 05/19/2007 2:27:54 PM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT
Try again.
The US aided Al Qaeda's opposition within the Mujihadeen.
Our problem was not too much involvement, but too little. We essentually gave money to the Pakeistani ISI (their Islamist-controled CIA). The ISI created the Taliban and has helped Bin LAden.

You on the other hand are quoted communists.

265 posted on 05/19/2007 2:32:44 PM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Yes; it does matter WHY they do things. It does not matter whether an opponent is evil or not; the Nazis were evil, and it definitely mattered WHY they did things.

Actually, according the distorted reality these Ron Paul idiots live within, the Nazi's were perfectly justified.

We left the German people broken, poor and helpless after WWI. Our actions against them are far, far worse than anything we have done in the middle east.

Of course, these useful idiots don't have the testicular fortitude to defend the Nazi's like they defend Al Qaeda.

266 posted on 05/19/2007 2:53:51 PM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: rmlew; MitchellC
We essentually gave money to the Pakeistani ISI (their Islamist-controled CIA). The ISI created the Taliban and has helped Bin LAden.
You on the other hand are quoted communists.


We essentially said the same thing. Post 260 explains all we know at this time history. See below post 260....

Do some research before you call me a communists.

I do more on FR to fight terrorism than you know. This is my ongoing thread...

World Terrorism: News, History and Research Of A Changing World #8 Security Watch
Posted on 04/15/2007 7:43:46 PM EDT by DAVEY CROCKETT

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1817890/posts?q=1&;page=2851

With all this said would the 2 of you leave me alone or get on the ‘lets fight terrorism boat?’

267 posted on 05/19/2007 9:15:46 PM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT (Waiting on GOD...)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT

(laugh) No one is stalking you. Stop trying to make yourself into a martyr over a friendly disagreement.


268 posted on 05/19/2007 10:50:16 PM PDT by MitchellC
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To: MNJohnnie
He is not propagandizing for al-Qaida.

Is the prosecutor who is explaining the motive of a killer justifying the murder? Get Real! NeoConservatives crack me up. They'll sacrifice any and all liberties for a little military glory. It's probably because many of their loudest voices never serves.

If you think Iraq is such a splendid campaign, why don't you re-up, go back to bein' an 11-Bravo? If it's such a great cause, go for it!

269 posted on 05/20/2007 2:17:15 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: Erik Latranyi
Erik, tell me how explaining somebody's motive for committing a crime is justifying said crime?

You are absolutely right -- We left the German people broken, poor and helpless after WWI. That was a contributing factor to the rise of the Nazis. But that does not justify their actions.

If you don't understand the difference between describing a criminal's motivations and justifying their actions, I feel sorry for you.

270 posted on 05/20/2007 2:19:59 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!)
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To: DAVEY CROCKETT

I did not call you a communist. I noted that you were using communist new organs as sources.


271 posted on 05/20/2007 10:11:33 PM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: Remember_Salamis
If you don't understand the difference between describing a criminal's motivations and justifying their actions, I feel sorry for you.

I understand the difference. Unfortunately, many politicians do not.

This is one of those cases.

272 posted on 05/23/2007 8:42:04 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (The Democratic Party will not exist in a few years....we are watching history unfold before us.)
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To: rmlew

ping


273 posted on 06/04/2007 2:14:55 AM PDT by rmlew (It's WW4 and the Left wants to negotiate with Islamists who want to kill us , for their mutual ends)
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To: CatHerder

Do you believe in a concept of “muslim lands”?

You realize that those who do are Islamic supremacists. They are just as against people of the same racial/national heritage who convert away from Islam as they are against “kufir” from the West.

Saying that “we shouldn’t be there” is to say that we have no right to be there. Like segregation much?


274 posted on 07/03/2007 5:00:26 PM PDT by weegee (If the Fairness Doctrine is imposed on USA who will CNN news get to read the conservative rebuttal)
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To: oldleft

ping for later


275 posted on 12/22/2010 1:11:46 PM PST by erod (Unlike the President I am a true Chicagoan.)
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