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'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

Charles Townes is the Nobel Prize Physics winner whose pioneering work led to the maser and later the laser.

The University of California, Berkeley interviewed him on his 90th birthday where they talked about evolution, intelligent design and the meaning of life.

I thought this would be good to share...

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BERKELEY – Religion and science, faith and empirical experiment: these terms would seem to have as little in common as a Baptist preacher and a Berkeley physicist. And yet, according to Charles Hard Townes, winner of a Nobel Prize in Physics and a UC Berkeley professor in the Graduate School, they are united by similar goals: science seeks to discern the laws and order of our universe; religion, to understand the universe's purpose and meaning, and how humankind fits into both.

Where these areas intersect is territory that Townes has been exploring for many of his 89 years, and in March his insights were honored with the 2005 Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities. Worth about $1.5 million, the Templeton Prize recognizes those who, throughout their lives, have sought to advance ideas and/or institutions that will deepen the world's understanding of God and of spiritual realities.

Townes first wrote about the parallels between religion and science in IBM's Think magazine in 1966, two years after he shared the Nobel Prize in Physics for his groundbreaking work in quantum electronics: in 1953, thanks in part to what Townes calls a "revelation" experienced on a park bench, he invented the maser (his acronym for Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission), which amplifies microwaves to produce an intense beam. By building on this work, he achieved similar amplification using visible light, resulting in the laser (whose name he also coined).

Even as his research interests have segued from microwave physics to astrophysics, Townes has continued to explore topics such as "Science, values, and beyond," in Synthesis of Science and Religion (1987), "On Science, and what it may suggest about us," in Theological Education (1988), and "Why are we here; where are we going?" in The International Community of Physics, Essays on Physics (1997).

Townes sat down one morning recently to discuss how these and other weighty questions have shaped his own life, and their role in current controversies over public education.

Q. If science and religion share a common purpose, why have their proponents tended to be at loggerheads throughout history?

Science and religion have had a long interaction: some of it has been good and some of it hasn't. As Western science grew, Newtonian mechanics had scientists thinking that everything is predictable, meaning there's no room for God — so-called determinism. Religious people didn't want to agree with that. Then Darwin came along, and they really didn't want to agree with what he was saying, because it seemed to negate the idea of a creator. So there was a real clash for a while between science and religions.

But science has been digging deeper and deeper, and as it has done so, particularly in the basic sciences like physics and astronomy, we have begun to understand more. We have found that the world is not deterministic: quantum mechanics has revolutionized physics by showing that things are not completely predictable. That doesn't mean that we've found just where God comes in, but we know now that things are not as predictable as we thought and that there are things we don't understand. For example, we don't know what some 95 percent of the matter in the universe is: we can't see it — it's neither atom nor molecule, apparently. We think we can prove it's there, we see its effect on gravity, but we don't know what and where it is, other than broadly scattered around the universe. And that's very strange.

So as science encounters mysteries, it is starting to recognize its limitations and become somewhat more open. There are still scientists who differ strongly with religion and vice versa. But I think people are being more open-minded about recognizing the limitations in our frame of understanding.

You've said "I believe there is no long-range question more important than the purpose and meaning of our lives and our universe." How have you attempted to answer that question?

Even as a youngster, you're usually taught that there's some purpose you'll try to do, how you are going to live. But that's a very localized thing, about what you want with your life. The broader question is, "What are humans all about in general, and what is this universe all about?" That comes as one tries to understand what is this beautiful world that we're in, that's so special: "Why has it come out this way? What is free will and why do we have it? What is a being? What is consciousness?" We can't even define consciousness. As one thinks about these broader problems, then one becomes more and more challenged by the question of what is the aim and purpose and meaning of this universe and of our lives.

Those aren't easy questions to answer, of course, but they're important and they're what religion is all about. I maintain that science is closely related to that, because science tries to understand how the universe is constructed and why it does what it does, including human life. If one understands the structure of the universe, maybe the purpose of man becomes a little clearer. I think maybe the best answer to that is that somehow, we humans were created somewhat in the likeness of God. We have free will. We have independence, we can do and create things, and that's amazing. And as we learn more and more — why, we become even more that way. What kind of a life will we build? That's what the universe is open about. The purpose of the universe, I think, is to see this develop and to allow humans the freedom to do the things that hopefully will work out well for them and for the rest of the world.

How do you categorize your religious beliefs?

I'm a Protestant Christian, I would say a very progressive one. This has different meanings for different people. But I'm quite open minded and willing to consider all kinds of new ideas and to look at new things. At the same time it has a very deep meaning for me: I feel the presence of God. I feel it in my own life as a spirit that is somehow with me all the time.

You've described your inspiration for the maser as a moment of revelation, more spiritual than what we think of as inspiration. Do you believe that God takes such an active interest in humankind?

[The maser] was a new idea, a sudden visualization I had of what might be done to produce electromagnetic waves, so it's somewhat parallel to what we normally call revelation in religion. Whether the inspiration for the maser and the laser was God's gift to me is something one can argue about. The real question should be, where do brand-new human ideas come from anyway? To what extent does God help us? I think he's been helping me all along. I think he helps all of us — that there's a direction in our universe and it has been determined and is being determined. How? We don't know these things. There are many questions in both science and religion and we have to make our best judgment. But I think spirituality has a continuous effect on me and on other people.

That sounds like you agree with the "intelligent design" movement, the latest framing of creationism, which argues that the complexity of the universe proves it must have been created by a guiding force.

I do believe in both a creation and a continuous effect on this universe and our lives, that God has a continuing influence — certainly his laws guide how the universe was built. But the Bible's description of creation occurring over a week's time is just an analogy, as I see it. The Jews couldn't know very much at that time about the lifetime of the universe or how old it was. They were visualizing it as best they could and I think they did remarkably well, but it's just an analogy.

Should intelligent design be taught alongside Darwinian evolution in schools as religious legislators have decided in Pennsylvania and Kansas?

I think it's very unfortunate that this kind of discussion has come up. People are misusing the term intelligent design to think that everything is frozen by that one act of creation and that there's no evolution, no changes. It's totally illogical in my view. Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it's remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren't just the way they are, we couldn't be here at all. The sun couldn't be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here.

Some scientists argue that "well, there's an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right." Well, that's a postulate, and it's a pretty fantastic postulate — it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that's why it has come out so specially. Now, that design could include evolution perfectly well. It's very clear that there is evolution, and it's important. Evolution is here, and intelligent design is here, and they're both consistent.

They don't have to negate each other, you're saying. God could have created the universe, set the parameters for the laws of physics and chemistry and biology, and set the evolutionary process in motion, But that's not what the Christian fundamentalists are arguing should be taught in Kansas.

People who want to exclude evolution on the basis of intelligent design, I guess they're saying, "Everything is made at once and then nothing can change." But there's no reason the universe can't allow for changes and plan for them, too. People who are anti-evolution are working very hard for some excuse to be against it. I think that whole argument is a stupid one. Maybe that's a bad word to use in public, but it's just a shame that the argument is coming up that way, because it's very misleading.

That seems to come up when religion seeks to control or limit the scope of science. We're seeing that with the regulation of research into stem cells and cloning. Should there be areas of scientific inquiry that are off-limits due to a culture's prevailing religious principles?

My answer to that is, we should explore as much as we can. We should think about everything, try to explore everything, and question things. That's part of our human characteristic in nature that has made us so great and able to achieve so much. Of course there are problems if we do scientific experiments on people that involve killing them — that's a scientific experiment sure, but ethically it has problems. There are ethical issues with certain kinds of scientific experimentation. But outside of the ethical issues, I think we should try very hard to understand everything we can and to question things.

I think it's settling those ethical issues that's the problem. Who decides what differentiates a "person" from a collection of cells, for example?

That's very difficult. What is a person? We don't know. Where is this thing, me — where am I really in this body? Up here in the top of the head somewhere? What is personality? What is consciousness? We don't know. The same thing is true once the body is dead: where is this person? Is it still there? Has it gone somewhere else? If you don't know what it is, it's hard to say what it's doing next. We have to be open-minded about that. The best we can do is try to find ways of answering those questions.

You'll turn 90 on July 28. What's the secret to long life?

Good luck is one, but also just having a good time. Some people say I work hard: I come in on Saturdays, and I work evenings both at my desk and in the lab. But I think I'm just having a good time doing physics and science. I have three telescopes down on Mt. Wilson; I was down there a couple nights last week. I've traveled a lot. On Sundays, my wife [of 64 years] and I usually go hiking. I'd say the secret has been being able to do things that I like, and keeping active.

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'Faith is necessary for the scientist even to get started, and deep faith is necessary for him to carry out his tougher tasks. Why? Because he must have confidence that there is order in the universe and that the human mind — in fact his own mind — has a good chance of understanding this order.'

-Charles Townes, writing in "The Convergence of Science and Religion," IBM's Think magazine, March-April 1966

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Who created us? U.S. vs. UC Berkeley beliefs

A Nov. 18-21, 2004 New York Times/CBS News poll on American mores and attitudes, conducted with 885 U.S. adults, showed that a significant number of Americans believe that God created humankind. UC Berkeley's Office of Student Research asked the same question on its 2005 UC Undergraduate Experience Survey, results for which are still coming in. As of June 8, 2,057 students had responded.

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE TABLE THAT SHOWS THE RESULT


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: charlestownes; evolution; fsmdidit; gagdad; id; intelligentdesign; templetonprize; townes
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To: ahayes; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. Apparently he's chosen not to reveal himself to a heck of a lot of people while they've received revelations of other Gods. My point is there's no way of qualitatively distinguishing a Christian divine revelation from any other religion's experiences. ..]

Thats WHY Jesus came to make ALL religion obsolete, and Did (even Judaism)..

Judeo-Christianity is not a religion it is a family.. Its not based on what you believe its based on whom you are..
"You MUST be born again"-Jesus...

Even some heretics are included if they are born again..
How do you get born again?.. Hmmmm.. try praying..

551 posted on 06/12/2007 10:18:56 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: ahayes; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. My truth is that the Judeo-Christian God does not exist, based upon his character as depicted in the Bible. ..]

So then your personal character is superior to the God revealed in the Bible?.. You've eaten from the metaphorical Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.. As Satan in Genesis promised.. "You will be like God knowing good from evil".. and can pronounce God as inferior.. Well,,,,,, Duuuugh..

552 posted on 06/12/2007 10:42:21 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: js1138; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
[.. Now as soon as theists in general quit pretending that they can find God in the laboratory, the better off will be both science and religion. ..]

You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

553 posted on 06/12/2007 10:47:11 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

Yes, I’m going to hell where you can laugh at my suffering forever.


554 posted on 06/12/2007 10:51:46 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes; cornelis; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. I have a problem having conversations with jerks with chips on their shoulders. It’s my cross I must bear. Goodbye. ..]

I raised three girls that solved all or most problems by slamming their bedroom doors.. Pity their ol' man was a neantherthal primitive.. Took the lock set off the door for about 2 weeks.. and applied weather strip to the door jam.. i.e. door would not make any noise while slamming it..

555 posted on 06/12/2007 11:02:11 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: ahayes; Heretic; satan; Alamo-Girl
[.. How’s it feel to be a heretic? ..]

If your in the family of God its O.K. to be a heretic..
Being a heretic seems to always cause personal problems..
Since ALL heretics have them..

556 posted on 06/12/2007 11:07:07 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop
Thank you so much for sharing all of your insights!

I did not understand this to mean that man evolved to seek God, though certainly some may believe that is how Adam became the first ensouled man.

My comments about the origin of man - and Adam in particular - have been posted many times so I won't repeat them here. But I will assert that every Christian, individually, goes through a spiritual "evolution" which we call sanctification (Phl 2).

557 posted on 06/12/2007 11:15:02 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe

Thank you for sharing your extraneous reminiscence. *blink* I’ll keep that pointer in mind.


558 posted on 06/12/2007 11:25:53 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes
[.. Yes, I’m going to hell where you can laugh at my suffering forever. ..]

Hell may not be so bad.. What if you remained a spirit in a human body(updated form) forever?.. in a perfect world, no death, no sin, no disease, no gender, no money, no a lot of other things?... After 10,000 years it could get quite boring..

Course some like me would consider THAT hell being a servant, NO slave, to this/a very needy human body..

559 posted on 06/12/2007 11:45:03 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Preach it, Sister! I just went and read again Romans 8 - you’ve mentioned it a lot lately, so I’ve read it many times over the last week or so! I ended in tears. Yes, indeed! It will all work together for good: There is nothing that can kill or condemn us; we only rise, In Christ Jesus. Amen.


560 posted on 06/12/2007 12:11:28 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: hosepipe; ahayes; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; .30Carbine; cornelis; DreamsofPolycarp; RightWhale
Thank you again for sharing your insights and testimony! I’ll consolidate my reply here to save on bandwidth (LOL!)

I strongly agree with you that Christ came to establish a family. That is the theme from Genesis to Revelation: First Cause and Final Cause, Alpha and Omega. The next heaven and earth is the end of this heaven and earth. And there are no religions in Revelation 21-22.

You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

LOLOL!

If your in the family of God its O.K. to be a heretic..

LOLOL! Although the term usually applies to those who disagree with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, one could say that the Pharisees considered Jesus Christ, God enfleshed, a “heretic” with regard to Judaism.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. – John 5:18

Many assemblies of men over the ages have concluded that they alone possess insight to God’s will and everyone else is therefore lost, doomed, ignorant, separated or whatever.

That makes me very sad indeed because no such assembly of men can protect itself from the tendency to fabricate doctrines and traditions – Judaism couldn't, Catholicism couldn't, etc.

Some of the doctrines and traditions of men can be as innocuous as the color of the clothing a minister or priest wears - or simply a waste of time - but some can spiritually lethal turning hapless followers away from God Himself. (Mark 7:7)

Personally, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. I have cast all my burdens on the Lord, thrown all caution to His wind. My fate is in His hands. I believe Him and trust Him. That makes me a Christian, plain and simple.

But others are more comfortable relying on the counsel of their religious leaders, which is also fine by me. God didn’t make us with a cookie cutter. The foundation of New Jerusalem is made with twelve different gemstones.

Besides, many of the splits such as between Barnabas and Paul resulted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ being spread further and faster.

561 posted on 06/12/2007 12:12:36 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
Oh, thank you so very much for your testimony and your encouragements!

It will all work together for good: There is nothing that can kill or condemn us; we only rise, In Christ Jesus. Amen.

Amen! Praise God!!!

562 posted on 06/12/2007 12:23:49 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Praise the Lord, Sister! I am reminded of what came out of the first great Church council ... where disputation resulted in nothing of slavational importance since that issue was already commonly understood as settled, but rather in doctrine (don’t eat food offered to idols!).


563 posted on 06/12/2007 12:28:46 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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Wow, wtalk about a Jungian slip ... slavational = salvational


564 posted on 06/12/2007 12:29:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Consider this: every measure that we use to judge another person will be used in judging us and we will be found guilty. (Matt 7, Romans 2) Judging God is even more perilous. (Job 38-42)

I consider this daily. Thank you for saying this so clearly, dear, dear Sister of Grace. May Our Gracious Father grant us more grace daily, to be givers of grace as we have received it, amen.

565 posted on 06/12/2007 12:33:04 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: MHGinTN
Praise God!!!

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements!

One only needs to look at the Internal Revenue Code for an example of the tendency of assemblies of men to compile over time large volumes of laws and regulations - or in this case, doctrines and traditions. LOL!

566 posted on 06/12/2007 12:53:14 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
May Our Gracious Father grant us more grace daily, to be givers of grace as we have received it, amen.

Amen!

Thank you so very much for your encouragements and especially, your testimony!

567 posted on 06/12/2007 12:55:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. But others are more comfortable relying on the counsel of their religious leaders, which is also fine by me. ..]

Me too... John Chapter 10 indicates Jesus is the gate to the sheep pen.. and the gate is open but some sheep will not come out, NO refuse to come out.. Scaredy cats I suppose.. all huddled in a corner of the/a sheep pen.. silly sheep.. poor things..

568 posted on 06/12/2007 12:56:31 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
LOLOL! Indeed, and thank God they have several pens to choose from.
569 posted on 06/12/2007 1:00:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
[.. Indeed, and thank God they have several pens to choose from. ..]

True.. After bleeding myself over the schisms in the "church" for some years.. it dawned on me that God is not a MORON.. They are right where they are supposed to be.. RCC, EO, the reform denominations, JW's, Mormons, and many other so-called cults.. This seems like a beautiful plan.. Some come OUT of the sheep pen(s), some do not.. and some sheep are not sheep at all but goats..

The metaphor of the sheep pen is pregnant..

570 posted on 06/12/2007 1:10:29 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
Excellent points, hosepipe! I also praise God for making it this way!
571 posted on 06/12/2007 1:13:09 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. I also praise God for making it this way! ..]

Sheep confronting each other through the dogma/boards of their sheep pens to the sheep pen of another is comedic when Jesus says COME ON OUT of the freeping sheep pen.. Would make a good premise for a novel or movie or even a cartoon.. That is; Sheep sniping at each other through the container of the sheep pens.. about who has the better sheep pen.. and that its SCARY outside the sheep pen..

572 posted on 06/12/2007 2:01:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Coyoteman; Cornelius
In referencing these remarks, please refer to posts 540 and 542 in this thread...

There is a poster who has requested in post 542 that I name him no more; and that if I do refer to him, that I do it indirectly by saying "some people":

Please do not address me again. And if you feel the need to read my mind while talking about me behind my back to another poster, don’t do me the favor of giving me a courtesy ping, just remove my name from your post and say “some people”.

I will not comply entirely with these wishes. I will not include a courtesy ping on this post, as requested; but instead of saying "some people" I will instead say "he who has requested that I name him no more" (or HWHRTINHNM for short).

Elsewhere in post 542, HWHRTINHNM said:

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you without your continually insinuating that I’m lying. I do Christians the courtesy to assume that their opinions are what they state they are, I find it annoying and frankly intriguing that the same courtesy is not returned to me.

I am aware of nothing in post 542 which insinuated that *anyone* was lying, but rather that some materialists and strict empiricists are committing a subtle, but perfectly natural, understandable, mistake.

And I went out of my way, when naming Coyoteman and HWHRTINHNM in post 540, to use the word *apparently* within asterisks, to indicate that the description which followed was neither mind-reading nor an accusation, but rather my interpretation of their argument.

Finally, regarding the first line of HWHRTINHNM's post:

You may not remember, but I’ve “taken agin you” due to your snide assumptions.

To demonstrate that I do in fact remember, a bit of history:

A long time ago, in another thread, the issue came up in FReepmail between myself and HWHRTINHNM of divine revelation and just war, and HWHRTINHNM sent me a private freepmail which contained an argument against Christianity. By netiquette, I will not say anything of what HWHRTINHNM said in those emails, but I will quote a single line of mine, which is apparently the one which gave umbrage:

“That *sounds* unanswerable; so I am not sure if you really believe that, or if is a favorite chestnut from some atheist site, or if it is mere troll- or flame- bait.”

Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know that I *do* in fact remember, as illustrated by the quote above, and that I did not intend either to read his mind, or to insinuate that he was lying?

Cheers!

573 posted on 06/12/2007 6:38:02 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Coyoteman; Cornelius
In referencing these remarks, please refer to posts 540 and 542 in this thread...

There is a poster who has requested in post 542 that I name him no more; and that if I do refer to him, that I do it indirectly by saying "some people":

Please do not address me again. And if you feel the need to read my mind while talking about me behind my back to another poster, don’t do me the favor of giving me a courtesy ping, just remove my name from your post and say “some people”.

I will not comply entirely with these wishes. I will not include a courtesy ping on this post, as requested; but instead of saying "some people" I will instead say "he who has requested that I name him no more" (or HWHRTINHNM for short).

Elsewhere in post 542, HWHRTINHNM said:

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you without your continually insinuating that I’m lying. I do Christians the courtesy to assume that their opinions are what they state they are, I find it annoying and frankly intriguing that the same courtesy is not returned to me.

I am aware of nothing in post 542 which insinuated that *anyone* was lying, but rather that some materialists and strict empiricists are committing a subtle, but perfectly natural, understandable, mistake. How such a post can be interpreted as "behind his back" when he was addressed by name, and in open forum, is beyond me.

Also, I went out of my way, when naming Coyoteman and HWHRTINHNM in post 540, to use the word *apparently* within asterisks, to indicate that the description which followed was neither mind-reading nor an accusation, but rather my interpretation of their argument.

Finally, regarding the first line of HWHRTINHNM's post:

You may not remember, but I’ve “taken agin you” due to your snide assumptions.

To demonstrate that I do in fact remember, a bit of history:

A long time ago, in another thread, the issue came up in FReepmail between myself and HWHRTINHNM of divine revelation and just war, and HWHRTINHNM sent me a private freepmail which contained an argument against Christianity. By netiquette, I will not say anything of what HWHRTINHNM said in those emails, but I will quote a single line of mine, which is apparently the one which gave umbrage:

“That *sounds* unanswerable; so I am not sure if you really believe that, or if is a favorite chestnut from some atheist site, or if it is mere troll- or flame- bait.”

Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know that I *do* in fact remember, as illustrated by the quote above, and that I did not intend either to read his mind, or to insinuate that he was lying?

Cheers!

574 posted on 06/12/2007 6:39:22 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know...

Him is a her.

575 posted on 06/12/2007 6:51:51 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: grey_whiskers; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; ahayes
HWHRTINHNM

?!?!?!

Kinda reminds me of the problem I had reading Swift's Gulliver's Travels, when I was confronted by a seemingly unpronounceable word: "Houyhnhnms." This was a term of honor that the people of Lilliput conferred on the high muckety-mucks of their society. But I couldn't figure out how to pronounce the word!

Then in a vast inspiration, it came to me: "Houyhnhnms" is pronounced exactly like the sound of a horse's whinney, or neigh.

I felt much better then. :^)

576 posted on 06/12/2007 7:18:45 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Coyoteman; Elsie
It must be something in the water on the crevo threads...

I made the same mistake about Elsie...!

Cheers!

577 posted on 06/12/2007 8:03:04 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop
Some sheep trust the pens more than the Shepherd, at least at the beginning, until they get to know Him better. It's a good thing the pens are there for them.
578 posted on 06/12/2007 8:11:08 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: grey_whiskers
It is difficult to have a one sided conversation. But I'm quite certain your undirected broadcast apology will be heard.
579 posted on 06/12/2007 8:16:30 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
LOLOL! Precious!
580 posted on 06/12/2007 8:19:55 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
Good point... Denominations then are a kind of incubator or kindergarten...
Or even a Spiritual Therapy Spa.. maybe there are spiritual diseases..

WoW.. again good theme/fodder for a novel or movie..

581 posted on 06/12/2007 8:21:00 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
I do hope you will write it - or perhaps capture the concept in a painting.
582 posted on 06/12/2007 8:27:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
I was confronted by a seemingly unpronounceable word: "Houyhnhnms."

Read Gulliver's Travels in high school. That word ruined the book for me.

And to add insult to injury, I mentally pronounced the word to myself as "HOW-nee-hims". It was only much later, to my acute embarassment, that I found out about your correct pronunciation.

Cheers!

583 posted on 06/12/2007 8:34:39 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Coyoteman
Him is a her.

Ooops! Talk about shooting oneself in the foot while one's foot is in one's mouth!

Worser and worser.

584 posted on 06/12/2007 8:35:44 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: hosepipe
You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

Absolutely adorable, hosepipe! (:

585 posted on 06/12/2007 8:59:03 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: hosepipe
WoW.. again good theme/fodder for a novel or movie..

Your lips, God's ears, my Brother! The fodder really is all over the place! Themes, dreams, etc., just abounding, and just waiting for someone to pick them up and weave them into an art form (:

586 posted on 06/12/2007 9:04:26 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Alamo-Girl
[.. do hope you will write it - or perhaps capture the concept in a painting. ..]

Still working on the lighthouse shining in an Arctic landscape at night with the northern lights vaguely in the shape of an eagle.. in the sky.. Triple metaphorical threat..

587 posted on 06/12/2007 9:06:55 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
That sounds wonderful! Kudos, hosepipe!
588 posted on 06/12/2007 9:17:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; cornelis; MHGinTN
. . . culture is the center that must hold if society is not to disintegrate.

Thank you betty . . . for the ping . . . and for stating the obvious. It seems from time to time that we have to be reminded of the obvious, even if it is obvious. In this instance, we need a little perspective restored; we need to be reminded that science is the handmaiden of philosophy. Specifically, Western Civilization science and Western Civilization philosophy. Science didn’t invent Western Civilization; Western Civilization invented science and, on the whole, it has turned out to be one of its happier inspirations.

We are told that the ‘education establishment’ has determined Western Culture to be unworthy of passing on to the next generation. If that be true, as we must think it is, then the education establishment condemns itself, for it is a product of Western Civilization. In the some five thousand odd years of the cultural development of Western Civilization, it has been only in the last two centuries that we have witnessed the denial of that civilization by those who should be its staunchest defenders: the intellectual community. I find this to be utterly astonishing, but undeniably true, and confirmed beyond question by the failure of the intellectuals to defend Western Civilization against the stark evil of Islamic terrorism.

As you point out, to undermine a culture is to undermine the foundation of that culture's civilization, leading ultimately to its collapse. Indeed, that seems to be their intent. Do these intellectuals not understand that its collapse will bring to an end their splendid little academic and intellectual environment? It would seem not. They apparently labor under the illusion that they can bring about the destruction of the culture and civilization which supports them, and that their cozy, protected lives will go on, unaffected by the event.

It had been our custom, until of late, that each succeeding generation learned from those who had gone before (verily, even to the times of the Greeks and Romans, upon whose backs we have constructed our marvelous little civilization), rejecting the false, building upon the true (or at least the more true). Thus, Galileo, an example often cited in this forum, may have received more than his share of grief from the political correctness of his time, but mankind was advanced nonetheless, and along the way, from his experience and that of others, we learned the value of free inquiry and free speech (A lesson, it seems, requiring endless reminders).

In an attempt to explain this truly bizarre thirst for self-annihilation, many have sought to lay the blame at the feet of Marxist/socialism, to which all the bloody little state tyrants of the socialist persuasion have lent their enthusiastic assent, proclaiming that it is, indeed, their intent to destroy Western Civilization. To whatever extent there is validity to this interplay between the protagonist and antagonist, to that degree both betray a profound lack of awareness that the theories and ideas of socialism arise directly from the mainstream of that very civilization the one seeks to preserve and the other seeks to destroy.

Since the latter has seized control of the intellectual community, that side seems to presently be getting the better of the struggle, but that is not to say that significant progress was not made in the Twentieth Century. Progress has been made, but it occurs under the ideas and philosophies of the Seventeenth, Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. It is these centuries that the modern intellectual community most specifically seeks to deny and destroy. And in the midst of all this, the ‘Science Community’ muddles along, apparently oblivious to its peril.

589 posted on 06/12/2007 10:12:18 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: cornelis
You sound manifestly impressed by this reasoning. There is no such thing as pure empiricism. It has its virtues, but when it is the sole methodology, out goes a lot more than just holy books. You’d be done with literature, too. And history. And politics.

It is not necessarily that I am *impressed* with it, but I am trying to make sure I both point out the potential flaws AND portray it accurately and fairly.

As far as I can tell, my efforts got a mixed reception.

Cheers!

590 posted on 06/13/2007 5:21:49 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
And the problem which ahayes and coyote *apparently* have is that empiricism is so good at reducing errors (when used as directedTM) that they are unwilling to put it aside as a methodolgy, even where its use is 'inappropriate' (in a square peg, round hole typeof way).

At the risk of bringing the discussion back to the thread topic, how does abandoning empiricism contribute to science? Can anyone give and example of a useful finding in science that depends for its authority, on personal revelation?

591 posted on 06/13/2007 6:32:12 AM PDT by js1138
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To: YHAOS
Most of the Western World is still ignorant that Socialism is Slavery by Government.. and is CAUSED by the social disease of democracy.. or Mob Rule by elected Mobsters..

And America has been made ignorant fairly lately that this country is a Republic because of that..

592 posted on 06/13/2007 7:02:58 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS; betty boop
Thank you so very much for your excellent post, dear YHAOS!

We are told that the ‘education establishment’ has determined Western Culture to be unworthy of passing on to the next generation. If that be true, as we must think it is, then the education establishment condemns itself, for it is a product of Western Civilization. In the some five thousand odd years of the cultural development of Western Civilization, it has been only in the last two centuries that we have witnessed the denial of that civilization by those who should be its staunchest defenders: the intellectual community. I find this to be utterly astonishing, but undeniably true, and confirmed beyond question by the failure of the intellectuals to defend Western Civilization against the stark evil of Islamic terrorism....

And in the midst of all this, the ‘Science Community’ muddles along, apparently oblivious to its peril.

I would that it were merely oblivious to the peril, but the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

593 posted on 06/13/2007 8:44:20 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: YHAOS
Progress has been made

Call it progress or evolution, motion is not necessarily improvement. Either progress or evolution can be motion around a circular track. When you find dogma and faith reappearing you will be back to start. As evidence that dogma and faith are appearing out of science, --Global Warming.

594 posted on 06/13/2007 8:50:24 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Alamo-Girl; YHAOS; hosepipe
...the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

...in their satanic arrogance. No good comes to anyone from this attitude, least of all to themselves. FWIW

595 posted on 06/13/2007 9:25:05 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
we need a little perspective restored; we need to be reminded that science is the handmaiden of philosophy. Specifically, Western Civilization science and Western Civilization philosophy. Science didn’t invent Western Civilization; Western Civilization invented science and, on the whole, it has turned out to be one of its happier inspirations.

What a beautiful essay/post, YHAOS!

Fortunately, not all scientists disparage this tremendous cultural legacy. And not all have written off God. Here's Francis Collins, Director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute on the Bible:

When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1-billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can't survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can't help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.

Thank you so much YHAOS for your truly beautiful post!
596 posted on 06/13/2007 9:37:20 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: betty boop
And not all have written off God. Here's Francis Collins, Director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute on the Bible:

I think he was talking about the human genome, but I'm sure he intended to refer to the Bible, even though his number would be off by three orders of magnitude.

597 posted on 06/13/2007 11:12:32 AM PDT by js1138
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To: hosepipe
Most of the Western World is still ignorant that Socialism is Slavery by Government

I’ll have to dispute that ‘ignorant’ part. You cut the Western World way too much slack. They (the WW) aren’t ignorant of their peril; they simply don’t wish to disturb their cozy little womb by confessing a knowledge requiring radical action that would be distasteful. They cannot, however, escape their fate (dragging us along with them, of course), and the reckoning approaches. The atmosphere reminds me of the late Thirties. Spooky.

598 posted on 06/13/2007 11:31:15 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
I would that it were merely oblivious to the peril, but the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

Point taken. I simply wished, at this time, not to be overly harsh. Figured I had already kicked enough sleeping dogs. { 8^)

599 posted on 06/13/2007 11:33:07 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: hosepipe; .30Carbine
I already tried writing that one ... the short novel is title Turnabout and the central character is an atheist revived from an NDE to proclaim he has been absolutely incorrect, there is God and He is intimately interested in each and every one of us (the revived atheist-turned-believer names Christ as The Listener), most especially at these end times before the beginning of the next age, that God's Spirit transforms the saved by renewing the mind through eliminating the diseases of the human spirit within those professing trust/faith in Christ, the man-form of God the Eternal Creator. Writing the novel was cathartic, to say the least.
600 posted on 06/13/2007 11:35:00 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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