Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 641-655 next last
To: hosepipe
The "Center of the Universe", then, is other than personal and becomes timeless..

Well and truly said, dear 'pipe!

201 posted on 06/05/2007 9:04:29 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: omnivore; Alamo-Girl; metmom; hosepipe; Coyoteman; YHAOS
My favorite ancient Greek was Archimedes, but maybe he doesn't rate as a philosopher.

Then I'm sorry I left him off my list!!! But in his own time, Archimedes would have been classified as a philosopher. Actually the words "science" and "scientist" did not enter into common usage until rather late in the nineteenth century. Prior to that, what we now call scientists were called "natural philosophers."

202 posted on 06/05/2007 9:07:36 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe
What is maturity?.. A Sacrificing of self centeredness to everything else..

So the ultimate expression of maturity is socialism?

203 posted on 06/05/2007 10:22:26 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: js1138; betty boop
[.. So the ultimate expression of maturity is socialism? ..]

No... Socialism is Slavery by Government created by the social disease of democracy(Mob Rule)..
A primitive tribal scructure for dysfunctional smart asses..

204 posted on 06/05/2007 11:27:29 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe
No... Socialism is Slavery by Government

No ... Socialism is giving up your wealth and means of producing wealth to the masses.

205 posted on 06/05/2007 11:31:18 AM PDT by ColdWater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe
No... Socialism is Slavery by Government created by the social disease of democracy(Mob Rule).. A primitive tribal scructure for dysfunctional smart asses..

Sort of like the folks in Acts?

206 posted on 06/05/2007 11:38:01 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

To: js1138
[.. Sort of like the folks in Acts? ..]

True that didn't last long though.. Socialism is Satanic..
Yes, Satan is in Acts, people in those days were not prepared for socialism..
Many still to this day are confused and "tricked"..

Capitalism creates wealth, Socialism uses it up..

207 posted on 06/05/2007 12:06:19 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 206 | View Replies]

To: ColdWater
[.. No ... Socialism is giving up your wealth and means of producing wealth to the masses. ..]

I just said that..

208 posted on 06/05/2007 12:08:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe

Where?


209 posted on 06/05/2007 12:15:33 PM PDT by ColdWater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | View Replies]

To: ColdWater

You.. Where?..
Me... Capitalism creates wealth, Socialism uses it up..


210 posted on 06/05/2007 12:48:29 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 209 | View Replies]

To: omnivore; metmom; Alamo-Girl
You continue to astonish. First, in an earlier message you admit that there is a lot of “leftist politically-motivated drivel” in our schools, and go on to excuse “the science/math/engineering communities” as being the least politically corrupted of the disciplines. But then you acknowledge enough exceptions to take the sting out of your observation. With me, the point is who controls the money in academia? Scientists of impeccable virtue? Not hardly. Marxist/Socialists who intend, with increasing force, to continue to push their “leftist drivel”? I believe so. Don’t you think your passion is misplaced by quite a wide mark? That was my point when I expressed my astonishment at the intense passion Scientists bring to their arguments with Conservative Christians, in contrast to the marked indifference with which they seem to view the Marxist/Socialist garbage which infests our schools and universities. I would think that you would be engaged mightily against those who intend to become your Marxist/Socialist masters. But you’re so focused on your little Evo War with the “Fundies” that apparently you’re blind to anything else. So far, you’ve entirely missed my points. Don’t be so intensely focused on your Evo War when you’re crossing a street. You’ll never see that delivery van.

Now, you confess that most kids read and write poorly (and do math badly as well); a point that departs from your earlier remarks. The point being . . . what? That they really don’t need to read and write better than poorly (although one might wish they would do better in math)?

The astonishment just doesn’t end. In your latest epistle you also confess that you “stuck in” the dehumanizing humanities bit just to be provocative. Word-manipulation, you call it, which you describe, including your own manipulations, as a fairly low level of human thought. Yeah, I think you’re right; spin is about as low as you can get, at least in terms of human communication. Dr Goebbels was its most ardent practitioner, although he has many equally ardent rivals today. Spin might sometimes actually require a fairly high level of thought, but only to produce the same very low product. Then, you recant and again describe the humanities as dehumanizing. More spin? It looks like I wasn’t very far off when I questioned your sincerity. Outside the natural sciences and math, you apparently can conceive of no communication above spin, including your own.

May we take you at your word and assume everything you have to say is essentially spin?

I don't know what it is about these evolution things that cause people to go all nonlinear and start making snide insinuations about one's bona fides as a normal patriotic American.

I don’t know what it is about these discussions with science-types that they seem to think it’s always exclusively about them and evolution. Maybe it’s because they can conceive of nothing else that could possibly be of some degree of importance. Do you have a context? Might it have anything to do with a statement something like, “in the absence of experimental proof science can accept nothing.”? If that is the case, the response had nothing to do with being nonlinear or snide. Try to think of some other possibility. That’s all the help you get.

211 posted on 06/05/2007 3:38:49 PM PDT by YHAOS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe; js1138; Alamo-Girl
Hosepipe's definition of socialism: A primitive tribal scructure for dysfunctional smart asses.. LOLOL!!!! Sounds about right to me, dear 'pipe!

I wish js1138 would explain to me how he gets from personal maturity to the question of socialism. I think the very idea of "altruism" gives our friend a rash. I don't know why!

Somebody once said that if someone is focused entirely on himself, then he is a problem. If he is focused on something greater than himself, and sees himself within that context, then he is a person. FWIW.

Thanks so much for your hilarious observation, dear 'pipe!

212 posted on 06/06/2007 6:29:22 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 204 | View Replies]

Comment #213 Removed by Moderator

To: betty boop
Regarding post 185, by fundamental, I didn't mean in the sense of "first people who tried to do something." I meant as in, what's needed in a course of study.

With a science like physics, roughly speaking, you have four years to get the students from Newton to the Standard Model (1970's basic understanding of physics, which is nowadays taken as a departure point for any variant theories, hence the name). Yes, there's stuff from before Newton and after the Standard Model, but that's the bulk of it, about 300 years of work of really smart people, packed into 4 years. That's about a 75:1 compression ratio between how long it took to figure the stuff out and how long you have to learn it. So only the essential stuff gets included; anything non-essential gets at best a footnote.

How the students demonstate knowledge is by doing it: working problems with numerical answers, proving derivations mathematically, and reproducing the fundamental experiments in lab classes. Wordy explanations count for diddley.

Very early on, like first or second week of a freshman physics class, gravity will come up. Aristotle gets a mention - as how not to do science. Aristotle comes in as the guy who says heavy things fall faster than lighter things. Galileo comes in as the guy who says things fall at the same rate, aside from possible influence of air resistance. (Yes, there's dispute over whether he really tried it with wood vs metal spheres. I'm betting he did.) Then they show the film clip of the astronaut standing on the moon, dropping the hammer and feather in vacuum. They fall at the same rate. Galileo is confirmed, Aristotle is disconfirmed. That bit lasts about 90 seconds, then it's on to the next thing. As I say, there's a lot to cover in very little time.

Which is not to say Aristotle was a dope, although that's certainly the impression a lot of physics students take away. The point of the lesson is, do the experiment to settle the question, rather than just yakking about it. With yakking, you can convince yourself of anything. Experiments disabuse people of wrong ideas.

And biology is even more experimentally-focused than physics. There is very little theorizing. It's mostly wet, yukky, smelly experiments at a lab bench. Aristotle's notions of biology are irrelevant to modern biology students, they probably spend even less time on him than physics students.

The idea that arguing things out with word-discussion can "help" is part of the philosophy of lawyers, etc. In reality (the physical world) it's useless, because the physical world doesn't pay attention to our words. (When I think of words interacting with the world, I think of stories of witches casting spells by means of incantation, like on one of those shows from the old WB or UPN network or whatever it is now.) It also doesn't settle anything between people. If it did, these threads would come to some sort of agreement. They don't. They just spin endlessly.
214 posted on 06/06/2007 1:01:56 PM PDT by omnivore
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 185 | View Replies]

To: js1138

placemarker


215 posted on 06/07/2007 10:35:36 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 206 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
I was wondering why you didn't reply to my post and then when I came back to the thread, I discovered it is not here. LOL! I must have hit "x" instead of post. Jeepers...

Best I can remember, my main point was that Einstein did indeed cling to the steady state model to the point that he "klugged" a cosmological constant. Afterwards, he regretted that - and yet today, many believe a constant is needed.

The other point was that Einstein's theories support the Platonist paradigm but he took the Aristotle paradigm (mathematics) in his debates with Godel. How strange!

Thank you so much for all of your wonderfully informative essay-posts!

216 posted on 06/07/2007 10:51:52 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]

To: omnivore; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; marron; cornelis; YHAOS; MHGinTN; metmom; editor-surveyor; ...
The idea that arguing things out with word-discussion can "help" is part of the philosophy of lawyers, etc. In reality (the physical world) it's useless, because the physical world doesn't pay attention to our words. (When I think of words interacting with the world, I think of stories of witches casting spells by means of incantation, like on one of those shows from the old WB or UPN network or whatever it is now.) It also doesn't settle anything between people. If it did, these threads would come to some sort of agreement. They don't. They just spin endlessly.

Good afternoon omnivore! RE the above:

All words are, are articulations of reality as we have experienced it. They allow us to “fix” our experiences in consciousness (memory), and to communicate them to others. Do not disparage words: Even scientists use words to think and communicate. True, the physical world does not heed them directly. But that’s not the point: Humans hear them. And words can be enormously powerful in transforming the way people think about reality, and engage in it — which certainly has an impact on human cultures, and beyond that, may affect the way people relate to the physical world in ways that can actually affect it. This is hardly the same thing as the disputations of lawyers.

You referenced witches’ incantations, the magic words that supposedly can change reality. It’s clear that the German transcendental idealist philosopher Hegel put great stock in the die Zauberworte, the “magic words” that can transform reality. He basically wanted to “end history” as we know it, and start over with a new history in which man would “save himself,” who would therefore have no further need of God.

Here's a sample of Hegelian "magic words": “Every single man is but a blind link in a chain of absolute necessity by which the world builds itself forth. The single man can elevate himself to dominance over an appreciable length of this chain only if he knows the direction in which the great necessity wants to move and if he learns from this knowledge to pronounce the magic words (die Zauberworte) that will evoke it shape.”

Well guess what — Even though this statement strikes our ear as preposterous, Hegel was right: His system of “dialectical science” was taken over and “improved” by Marx, to become the system of dialectical materialism. Which in turn gave rise to communist ideology. And that has certainly had a profound effect on human societies and on the physical planet itself.

You wrote that words don’t “settle anything between people. If [they] did, these threads would come to some sort of agreement. They don't. They just spin endlessly.”

So am I to gather that it is impossible for human beings to reason together, using words? How else could they reason together? What causes the “spin” you notice is the fact that people are using words to speak “past” each other, because the participants to the discussion do not share a common perspective, or worldview.

The worldview of science is methodological (metaphysical) naturalism. The scientific method is predicated on observation and measurement — it depends on direct observables, or things which sense perception directly perceives. It is an amazing tool in its proper sphere of inquiry. But outside its sphere, in areas of experience that cannot be directly observed, measured, and quantified, science really has nothing to do.

Which is why it troubles me to see so-called “scientific methods” being used for subject areas outside the competence of science. As Christophe Cardinal Schoenborn has written,

If the Darwinist, taking up Descartes’ and [Sir Francis] Bacon’s project of understanding nature according only to material and efficient causes, studies the history of living things and says that he can see no organizing, active principles of whole living substances (formal causes) and no real plan, purpose or design in living things (final causes), then I accept his report without surprise. It is obviously compatible with the full truth that the world of living beings is replete with formality and finality. It comes as no surprise that reductionist science cannot recognize those very aspects of reality it excludes — or at least, seeks to exclude — by its choice of method….

[T]he modern biologist … is free to define his special science on terms as narrow as he finds useful for gaining a certain kind of knowledge. But he may not then turn around and demand the rest of us, unrestricted by his methodological self-limitation, ignore obvious truths about reality….

An example of “an obvious truth about reality” — obvious to me at least — is that there is more to nature than material and efficient causes. (We may have to agree to disagree about this, omnivore.) There are also formal and final causes, just as Aristotle said. But formal and final causes do not seem to be within the reach of the scientific method.

With formal and final causes, we are dealing with the why (“ultimate cause”) and the wherefore (“ultimate purpose”) of things. And these are philosophical, religious, i.e., spiritual questions. Not all scientists are blind to questions of this nature; but some nowadays do seem to deny their validity. I suspect in certain “hard cases,” the questions are being denied for the precise reason that science cannot treat of them (e.g., Dawkins, Dennett, Pinker, Lewontin, et al.). Still, the fact that science cannot deal with them does not make the questions “go away”: Human beings have been asking precisely this type of question from the dawn of recorded history, and probably before. It is our nature to ask such questions!

Nowadays, it is commonly thought that there is a great divide between faith and reason, between the humanities and the natural sciences. I consider this the most persistent illusion of our time.

As Albert Einstein wrote in 1941: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” This was in answer to a person who asked him what spiritual or religious views Einstein actually held. He said, “A religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation.” Einstein recognized himself as a deeply religious person in this sense. For Einstein, faith and reason were not separable, let alone mutually exclusive.

A hundred years after Einstein’s pioneering work on the light-quantum (for which he won the Nobel prize) and special relativity, his sense of the inseparability of faith and reason has been almost entirely lost, supplanted by materialist, positivist, and rationalist dogmas that together comprise a doctrine of philosophic materialism that has penetrated to the very heart of modern-day science, which is particularly evident in orthodox Neo-Darwinism. The essential complementarity of faith and reason that Einstein recognized has been recast as the triumph of the rational (reason) over the irrational (faith).

Yet if Einstein is right, there really are superpersonal objects and goals “which neither require nor are capable of foundation by means of reason alone.” Any attentive student of human history can tell you that such objects and goals have informed the conduct and progress of human life from time immemorial. Indeed, these objects and goals refer primarily to nonsensory modes of human experience that are “superior in rank and worth” to the objects of sense experience — the domain of the scientific method. As Ellis Sandoz put it, “Inasmuch as such nonsensory experiences are constitutive of what is distinctive about human existence itself — and of what is most precious to mankind — a purported science of man unable to take account of them is egregiously defective.”

As we said, such nonsensory modes of experience lie entirely outside the reach of the scientific method as presently constituted: methodological naturalism. But the fact that science cannot reach them does not mean they do not exist in Reality.

Anyhoot, FWIW, I consider faith and reason, philosophy and the natural sciences to be complementarities. They appear to be mutually-exclusive contraries, yet the fact is both are necessary to the life of man and to his exploration of the natural world.

Evidently this was something that Einstein and Bohr could agree on (though Bohr was scrupulous to avoid philosophizing in his science, in a way that Einstein was not).

Late in his life, the Danish government conferred the Order of the Elephant on Niels Bohr — an honor normally reserved for royalty and heads of state. So he had to create a coat of arms. The coat of arms he chose featured the famous Yin-Yang symbol of the Far East, the Tao, denoting the essential complementariety implicit in the structure of the reality. He chose as his motto the statement “contraries are complementary.”

For Bohr, the complementarity principle had profound ramifications outside the physical sciences (e.g., in the humanities) as well as within it (e.g., superposition, indeterminacy, the correspondence principle, etc.). You don’t get “a complete description of the system” -- variously in nature, the universe, reality -- without both terms of the complementarity.

Well I’ve probably run on too long, omnivore, but I just wanted to make clear my own view WRT these so-called “evo-crevo” debates, which seem to leave us “spinning” to no fruitful purpose.

Then again, it might be useful for people to understand where their debate partners “are coming from” (this ought to be mutual IMO), hopefully to be able to speak with each other in ways that are meaningful to both partners. People who are hermetically sealed within a particular worldview often have difficulty understanding others, whose worldview is different. That’s where all the “spinning endlessly” comes from, IMHO, FWIW.

Thanks so very much for your thoughtful essay/post!

217 posted on 06/07/2007 11:32:31 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 214 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS; betty boop; omnivore; hosepipe
Thank you oh so very much, all of you, for this most excellent sidebar!

Truly I am humbled by the wisdom and eloquence of so many of you.

And I sympathize with you, omnivore – those of us who are drawn to math and physics (and engineering) tend to be more comfortable with formulae than verbiage. But that highly structured “language” cannot respond to the deepest questions of life. The humanities are vital.

On the main point of this sidebar: our entire public education system imperils the liberties for which this country was founded. Publicly funded education has become the primary platform of indoctrination to selected ideologies, politics and morals.

218 posted on 06/07/2007 11:34:40 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 211 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; omnivore; YHAOS; hosepipe
Thank you oh so very much for your glorious essay, dearest sister in Christ!

All I can think to add is to underscore the point you were making about Einstein, with this quote in his own words:

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.

Albert Einstein, “My Credo,” presented to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, autumn 1932, in Einstein: A Life in Science, Michael White and John Gribbin, ed., London: Simon & Schuster, 1993, page 262.


219 posted on 06/07/2007 11:57:48 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 217 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
I was wondering why you didn't reply to my post and then when I came back to the thread, I discovered it is not here. LOL! I must have hit "x" instead of post. Jeepers...

Oh, don't you just HATE IT when that happens! (It's happened to me more than once....)

I'm oh so sorry this happened! I was wondering why you hadn't replied to my post!!! LOL!!!

You think it strange that a "platonist" like Einstein would take the "aristotelian" position in his debate with Godel. I just think that Einstein is this splendid, magnificent, walking-around "complementarity" in his own self! He's an absolutely fascinating personality....

Thank you ever so much for writing, my dearest sister in Christ! I'm so very sorry your first attempt has been lost.

220 posted on 06/07/2007 12:08:31 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 181-200201-220221-240 ... 641-655 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson