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'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

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To: ahayes; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. Apparently he's chosen not to reveal himself to a heck of a lot of people while they've received revelations of other Gods. My point is there's no way of qualitatively distinguishing a Christian divine revelation from any other religion's experiences. ..]

Thats WHY Jesus came to make ALL religion obsolete, and Did (even Judaism)..

Judeo-Christianity is not a religion it is a family.. Its not based on what you believe its based on whom you are..
"You MUST be born again"-Jesus...

Even some heretics are included if they are born again..
How do you get born again?.. Hmmmm.. try praying..

551 posted on 06/12/2007 10:18:56 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: ahayes; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. My truth is that the Judeo-Christian God does not exist, based upon his character as depicted in the Bible. ..]

So then your personal character is superior to the God revealed in the Bible?.. You've eaten from the metaphorical Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.. As Satan in Genesis promised.. "You will be like God knowing good from evil".. and can pronounce God as inferior.. Well,,,,,, Duuuugh..

552 posted on 06/12/2007 10:42:21 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: js1138; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
[.. Now as soon as theists in general quit pretending that they can find God in the laboratory, the better off will be both science and religion. ..]

You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

553 posted on 06/12/2007 10:47:11 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

Yes, I’m going to hell where you can laugh at my suffering forever.


554 posted on 06/12/2007 10:51:46 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes; cornelis; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. I have a problem having conversations with jerks with chips on their shoulders. It’s my cross I must bear. Goodbye. ..]

I raised three girls that solved all or most problems by slamming their bedroom doors.. Pity their ol' man was a neantherthal primitive.. Took the lock set off the door for about 2 weeks.. and applied weather strip to the door jam.. i.e. door would not make any noise while slamming it..

555 posted on 06/12/2007 11:02:11 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: ahayes; Heretic; satan; Alamo-Girl
[.. How’s it feel to be a heretic? ..]

If your in the family of God its O.K. to be a heretic..
Being a heretic seems to always cause personal problems..
Since ALL heretics have them..

556 posted on 06/12/2007 11:07:07 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop
Thank you so much for sharing all of your insights!

I did not understand this to mean that man evolved to seek God, though certainly some may believe that is how Adam became the first ensouled man.

My comments about the origin of man - and Adam in particular - have been posted many times so I won't repeat them here. But I will assert that every Christian, individually, goes through a spiritual "evolution" which we call sanctification (Phl 2).

557 posted on 06/12/2007 11:15:02 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe

Thank you for sharing your extraneous reminiscence. *blink* I’ll keep that pointer in mind.


558 posted on 06/12/2007 11:25:53 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes
[.. Yes, I’m going to hell where you can laugh at my suffering forever. ..]

Hell may not be so bad.. What if you remained a spirit in a human body(updated form) forever?.. in a perfect world, no death, no sin, no disease, no gender, no money, no a lot of other things?... After 10,000 years it could get quite boring..

Course some like me would consider THAT hell being a servant, NO slave, to this/a very needy human body..

559 posted on 06/12/2007 11:45:03 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Preach it, Sister! I just went and read again Romans 8 - you’ve mentioned it a lot lately, so I’ve read it many times over the last week or so! I ended in tears. Yes, indeed! It will all work together for good: There is nothing that can kill or condemn us; we only rise, In Christ Jesus. Amen.


560 posted on 06/12/2007 12:11:28 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: hosepipe; ahayes; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; .30Carbine; cornelis; DreamsofPolycarp; RightWhale
Thank you again for sharing your insights and testimony! I’ll consolidate my reply here to save on bandwidth (LOL!)

I strongly agree with you that Christ came to establish a family. That is the theme from Genesis to Revelation: First Cause and Final Cause, Alpha and Omega. The next heaven and earth is the end of this heaven and earth. And there are no religions in Revelation 21-22.

You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

LOLOL!

If your in the family of God its O.K. to be a heretic..

LOLOL! Although the term usually applies to those who disagree with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, one could say that the Pharisees considered Jesus Christ, God enfleshed, a “heretic” with regard to Judaism.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. – John 5:18

Many assemblies of men over the ages have concluded that they alone possess insight to God’s will and everyone else is therefore lost, doomed, ignorant, separated or whatever.

That makes me very sad indeed because no such assembly of men can protect itself from the tendency to fabricate doctrines and traditions – Judaism couldn't, Catholicism couldn't, etc.

Some of the doctrines and traditions of men can be as innocuous as the color of the clothing a minister or priest wears - or simply a waste of time - but some can spiritually lethal turning hapless followers away from God Himself. (Mark 7:7)

Personally, I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. I have cast all my burdens on the Lord, thrown all caution to His wind. My fate is in His hands. I believe Him and trust Him. That makes me a Christian, plain and simple.

But others are more comfortable relying on the counsel of their religious leaders, which is also fine by me. God didn’t make us with a cookie cutter. The foundation of New Jerusalem is made with twelve different gemstones.

Besides, many of the splits such as between Barnabas and Paul resulted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ being spread further and faster.

561 posted on 06/12/2007 12:12:36 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
Oh, thank you so very much for your testimony and your encouragements!

It will all work together for good: There is nothing that can kill or condemn us; we only rise, In Christ Jesus. Amen.

Amen! Praise God!!!

562 posted on 06/12/2007 12:23:49 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Praise the Lord, Sister! I am reminded of what came out of the first great Church council ... where disputation resulted in nothing of slavational importance since that issue was already commonly understood as settled, but rather in doctrine (don’t eat food offered to idols!).


563 posted on 06/12/2007 12:28:46 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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Wow, wtalk about a Jungian slip ... slavational = salvational


564 posted on 06/12/2007 12:29:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Consider this: every measure that we use to judge another person will be used in judging us and we will be found guilty. (Matt 7, Romans 2) Judging God is even more perilous. (Job 38-42)

I consider this daily. Thank you for saying this so clearly, dear, dear Sister of Grace. May Our Gracious Father grant us more grace daily, to be givers of grace as we have received it, amen.

565 posted on 06/12/2007 12:33:04 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: MHGinTN
Praise God!!!

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements!

One only needs to look at the Internal Revenue Code for an example of the tendency of assemblies of men to compile over time large volumes of laws and regulations - or in this case, doctrines and traditions. LOL!

566 posted on 06/12/2007 12:53:14 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
May Our Gracious Father grant us more grace daily, to be givers of grace as we have received it, amen.

Amen!

Thank you so very much for your encouragements and especially, your testimony!

567 posted on 06/12/2007 12:55:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. But others are more comfortable relying on the counsel of their religious leaders, which is also fine by me. ..]

Me too... John Chapter 10 indicates Jesus is the gate to the sheep pen.. and the gate is open but some sheep will not come out, NO refuse to come out.. Scaredy cats I suppose.. all huddled in a corner of the/a sheep pen.. silly sheep.. poor things..

568 posted on 06/12/2007 12:56:31 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
LOLOL! Indeed, and thank God they have several pens to choose from.
569 posted on 06/12/2007 1:00:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
[.. Indeed, and thank God they have several pens to choose from. ..]

True.. After bleeding myself over the schisms in the "church" for some years.. it dawned on me that God is not a MORON.. They are right where they are supposed to be.. RCC, EO, the reform denominations, JW's, Mormons, and many other so-called cults.. This seems like a beautiful plan.. Some come OUT of the sheep pen(s), some do not.. and some sheep are not sheep at all but goats..

The metaphor of the sheep pen is pregnant..

570 posted on 06/12/2007 1:10:29 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
Excellent points, hosepipe! I also praise God for making it this way!
571 posted on 06/12/2007 1:13:09 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[.. I also praise God for making it this way! ..]

Sheep confronting each other through the dogma/boards of their sheep pens to the sheep pen of another is comedic when Jesus says COME ON OUT of the freeping sheep pen.. Would make a good premise for a novel or movie or even a cartoon.. That is; Sheep sniping at each other through the container of the sheep pens.. about who has the better sheep pen.. and that its SCARY outside the sheep pen..

572 posted on 06/12/2007 2:01:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Coyoteman; Cornelius
In referencing these remarks, please refer to posts 540 and 542 in this thread...

There is a poster who has requested in post 542 that I name him no more; and that if I do refer to him, that I do it indirectly by saying "some people":

Please do not address me again. And if you feel the need to read my mind while talking about me behind my back to another poster, don’t do me the favor of giving me a courtesy ping, just remove my name from your post and say “some people”.

I will not comply entirely with these wishes. I will not include a courtesy ping on this post, as requested; but instead of saying "some people" I will instead say "he who has requested that I name him no more" (or HWHRTINHNM for short).

Elsewhere in post 542, HWHRTINHNM said:

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you without your continually insinuating that I’m lying. I do Christians the courtesy to assume that their opinions are what they state they are, I find it annoying and frankly intriguing that the same courtesy is not returned to me.

I am aware of nothing in post 542 which insinuated that *anyone* was lying, but rather that some materialists and strict empiricists are committing a subtle, but perfectly natural, understandable, mistake.

And I went out of my way, when naming Coyoteman and HWHRTINHNM in post 540, to use the word *apparently* within asterisks, to indicate that the description which followed was neither mind-reading nor an accusation, but rather my interpretation of their argument.

Finally, regarding the first line of HWHRTINHNM's post:

You may not remember, but I’ve “taken agin you” due to your snide assumptions.

To demonstrate that I do in fact remember, a bit of history:

A long time ago, in another thread, the issue came up in FReepmail between myself and HWHRTINHNM of divine revelation and just war, and HWHRTINHNM sent me a private freepmail which contained an argument against Christianity. By netiquette, I will not say anything of what HWHRTINHNM said in those emails, but I will quote a single line of mine, which is apparently the one which gave umbrage:

“That *sounds* unanswerable; so I am not sure if you really believe that, or if is a favorite chestnut from some atheist site, or if it is mere troll- or flame- bait.”

Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know that I *do* in fact remember, as illustrated by the quote above, and that I did not intend either to read his mind, or to insinuate that he was lying?

Cheers!

573 posted on 06/12/2007 6:38:02 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Dr. Eckleburg; Coyoteman; Cornelius
In referencing these remarks, please refer to posts 540 and 542 in this thread...

There is a poster who has requested in post 542 that I name him no more; and that if I do refer to him, that I do it indirectly by saying "some people":

Please do not address me again. And if you feel the need to read my mind while talking about me behind my back to another poster, don’t do me the favor of giving me a courtesy ping, just remove my name from your post and say “some people”.

I will not comply entirely with these wishes. I will not include a courtesy ping on this post, as requested; but instead of saying "some people" I will instead say "he who has requested that I name him no more" (or HWHRTINHNM for short).

Elsewhere in post 542, HWHRTINHNM said:

It’s impossible to have a conversation with you without your continually insinuating that I’m lying. I do Christians the courtesy to assume that their opinions are what they state they are, I find it annoying and frankly intriguing that the same courtesy is not returned to me.

I am aware of nothing in post 542 which insinuated that *anyone* was lying, but rather that some materialists and strict empiricists are committing a subtle, but perfectly natural, understandable, mistake. How such a post can be interpreted as "behind his back" when he was addressed by name, and in open forum, is beyond me.

Also, I went out of my way, when naming Coyoteman and HWHRTINHNM in post 540, to use the word *apparently* within asterisks, to indicate that the description which followed was neither mind-reading nor an accusation, but rather my interpretation of their argument.

Finally, regarding the first line of HWHRTINHNM's post:

You may not remember, but I’ve “taken agin you” due to your snide assumptions.

To demonstrate that I do in fact remember, a bit of history:

A long time ago, in another thread, the issue came up in FReepmail between myself and HWHRTINHNM of divine revelation and just war, and HWHRTINHNM sent me a private freepmail which contained an argument against Christianity. By netiquette, I will not say anything of what HWHRTINHNM said in those emails, but I will quote a single line of mine, which is apparently the one which gave umbrage:

“That *sounds* unanswerable; so I am not sure if you really believe that, or if is a favorite chestnut from some atheist site, or if it is mere troll- or flame- bait.”

Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know that I *do* in fact remember, as illustrated by the quote above, and that I did not intend either to read his mind, or to insinuate that he was lying?

Cheers!

574 posted on 06/12/2007 6:39:22 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Would someone please extend my compliments and apologies to HWHRTINHNM and let him know...

Him is a her.

575 posted on 06/12/2007 6:51:51 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: grey_whiskers; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; ahayes
HWHRTINHNM

?!?!?!

Kinda reminds me of the problem I had reading Swift's Gulliver's Travels, when I was confronted by a seemingly unpronounceable word: "Houyhnhnms." This was a term of honor that the people of Lilliput conferred on the high muckety-mucks of their society. But I couldn't figure out how to pronounce the word!

Then in a vast inspiration, it came to me: "Houyhnhnms" is pronounced exactly like the sound of a horse's whinney, or neigh.

I felt much better then. :^)

576 posted on 06/12/2007 7:18:45 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Coyoteman; Elsie
It must be something in the water on the crevo threads...

I made the same mistake about Elsie...!

Cheers!

577 posted on 06/12/2007 8:03:04 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop
Some sheep trust the pens more than the Shepherd, at least at the beginning, until they get to know Him better. It's a good thing the pens are there for them.
578 posted on 06/12/2007 8:11:08 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: grey_whiskers
It is difficult to have a one sided conversation. But I'm quite certain your undirected broadcast apology will be heard.
579 posted on 06/12/2007 8:16:30 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
LOLOL! Precious!
580 posted on 06/12/2007 8:19:55 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
Good point... Denominations then are a kind of incubator or kindergarten...
Or even a Spiritual Therapy Spa.. maybe there are spiritual diseases..

WoW.. again good theme/fodder for a novel or movie..

581 posted on 06/12/2007 8:21:00 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
I do hope you will write it - or perhaps capture the concept in a painting.
582 posted on 06/12/2007 8:27:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
I was confronted by a seemingly unpronounceable word: "Houyhnhnms."

Read Gulliver's Travels in high school. That word ruined the book for me.

And to add insult to injury, I mentally pronounced the word to myself as "HOW-nee-hims". It was only much later, to my acute embarassment, that I found out about your correct pronunciation.

Cheers!

583 posted on 06/12/2007 8:34:39 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Coyoteman
Him is a her.

Ooops! Talk about shooting oneself in the foot while one's foot is in one's mouth!

Worser and worser.

584 posted on 06/12/2007 8:35:44 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: hosepipe
You don't find God he finds you.. (Jaws theme)..

Absolutely adorable, hosepipe! (:

585 posted on 06/12/2007 8:59:03 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: hosepipe
WoW.. again good theme/fodder for a novel or movie..

Your lips, God's ears, my Brother! The fodder really is all over the place! Themes, dreams, etc., just abounding, and just waiting for someone to pick them up and weave them into an art form (:

586 posted on 06/12/2007 9:04:26 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Alamo-Girl
[.. do hope you will write it - or perhaps capture the concept in a painting. ..]

Still working on the lighthouse shining in an Arctic landscape at night with the northern lights vaguely in the shape of an eagle.. in the sky.. Triple metaphorical threat..

587 posted on 06/12/2007 9:06:55 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
That sounds wonderful! Kudos, hosepipe!
588 posted on 06/12/2007 9:17:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; cornelis; MHGinTN
. . . culture is the center that must hold if society is not to disintegrate.

Thank you betty . . . for the ping . . . and for stating the obvious. It seems from time to time that we have to be reminded of the obvious, even if it is obvious. In this instance, we need a little perspective restored; we need to be reminded that science is the handmaiden of philosophy. Specifically, Western Civilization science and Western Civilization philosophy. Science didn’t invent Western Civilization; Western Civilization invented science and, on the whole, it has turned out to be one of its happier inspirations.

We are told that the ‘education establishment’ has determined Western Culture to be unworthy of passing on to the next generation. If that be true, as we must think it is, then the education establishment condemns itself, for it is a product of Western Civilization. In the some five thousand odd years of the cultural development of Western Civilization, it has been only in the last two centuries that we have witnessed the denial of that civilization by those who should be its staunchest defenders: the intellectual community. I find this to be utterly astonishing, but undeniably true, and confirmed beyond question by the failure of the intellectuals to defend Western Civilization against the stark evil of Islamic terrorism.

As you point out, to undermine a culture is to undermine the foundation of that culture's civilization, leading ultimately to its collapse. Indeed, that seems to be their intent. Do these intellectuals not understand that its collapse will bring to an end their splendid little academic and intellectual environment? It would seem not. They apparently labor under the illusion that they can bring about the destruction of the culture and civilization which supports them, and that their cozy, protected lives will go on, unaffected by the event.

It had been our custom, until of late, that each succeeding generation learned from those who had gone before (verily, even to the times of the Greeks and Romans, upon whose backs we have constructed our marvelous little civilization), rejecting the false, building upon the true (or at least the more true). Thus, Galileo, an example often cited in this forum, may have received more than his share of grief from the political correctness of his time, but mankind was advanced nonetheless, and along the way, from his experience and that of others, we learned the value of free inquiry and free speech (A lesson, it seems, requiring endless reminders).

In an attempt to explain this truly bizarre thirst for self-annihilation, many have sought to lay the blame at the feet of Marxist/socialism, to which all the bloody little state tyrants of the socialist persuasion have lent their enthusiastic assent, proclaiming that it is, indeed, their intent to destroy Western Civilization. To whatever extent there is validity to this interplay between the protagonist and antagonist, to that degree both betray a profound lack of awareness that the theories and ideas of socialism arise directly from the mainstream of that very civilization the one seeks to preserve and the other seeks to destroy.

Since the latter has seized control of the intellectual community, that side seems to presently be getting the better of the struggle, but that is not to say that significant progress was not made in the Twentieth Century. Progress has been made, but it occurs under the ideas and philosophies of the Seventeenth, Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. It is these centuries that the modern intellectual community most specifically seeks to deny and destroy. And in the midst of all this, the ‘Science Community’ muddles along, apparently oblivious to its peril.

589 posted on 06/12/2007 10:12:18 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: cornelis
You sound manifestly impressed by this reasoning. There is no such thing as pure empiricism. It has its virtues, but when it is the sole methodology, out goes a lot more than just holy books. You’d be done with literature, too. And history. And politics.

It is not necessarily that I am *impressed* with it, but I am trying to make sure I both point out the potential flaws AND portray it accurately and fairly.

As far as I can tell, my efforts got a mixed reception.

Cheers!

590 posted on 06/13/2007 5:21:49 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
And the problem which ahayes and coyote *apparently* have is that empiricism is so good at reducing errors (when used as directedTM) that they are unwilling to put it aside as a methodolgy, even where its use is 'inappropriate' (in a square peg, round hole typeof way).

At the risk of bringing the discussion back to the thread topic, how does abandoning empiricism contribute to science? Can anyone give and example of a useful finding in science that depends for its authority, on personal revelation?

591 posted on 06/13/2007 6:32:12 AM PDT by js1138
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To: YHAOS
Most of the Western World is still ignorant that Socialism is Slavery by Government.. and is CAUSED by the social disease of democracy.. or Mob Rule by elected Mobsters..

And America has been made ignorant fairly lately that this country is a Republic because of that..

592 posted on 06/13/2007 7:02:58 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS; betty boop
Thank you so very much for your excellent post, dear YHAOS!

We are told that the ‘education establishment’ has determined Western Culture to be unworthy of passing on to the next generation. If that be true, as we must think it is, then the education establishment condemns itself, for it is a product of Western Civilization. In the some five thousand odd years of the cultural development of Western Civilization, it has been only in the last two centuries that we have witnessed the denial of that civilization by those who should be its staunchest defenders: the intellectual community. I find this to be utterly astonishing, but undeniably true, and confirmed beyond question by the failure of the intellectuals to defend Western Civilization against the stark evil of Islamic terrorism....

And in the midst of all this, the ‘Science Community’ muddles along, apparently oblivious to its peril.

I would that it were merely oblivious to the peril, but the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

593 posted on 06/13/2007 8:44:20 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: YHAOS
Progress has been made

Call it progress or evolution, motion is not necessarily improvement. Either progress or evolution can be motion around a circular track. When you find dogma and faith reappearing you will be back to start. As evidence that dogma and faith are appearing out of science, --Global Warming.

594 posted on 06/13/2007 8:50:24 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Alamo-Girl; YHAOS; hosepipe
...the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

...in their satanic arrogance. No good comes to anyone from this attitude, least of all to themselves. FWIW

595 posted on 06/13/2007 9:25:05 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
we need a little perspective restored; we need to be reminded that science is the handmaiden of philosophy. Specifically, Western Civilization science and Western Civilization philosophy. Science didn’t invent Western Civilization; Western Civilization invented science and, on the whole, it has turned out to be one of its happier inspirations.

What a beautiful essay/post, YHAOS!

Fortunately, not all scientists disparage this tremendous cultural legacy. And not all have written off God. Here's Francis Collins, Director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute on the Bible:

When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1-billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can't survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can't help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.

Thank you so much YHAOS for your truly beautiful post!
596 posted on 06/13/2007 9:37:20 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: betty boop
And not all have written off God. Here's Francis Collins, Director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute on the Bible:

I think he was talking about the human genome, but I'm sure he intended to refer to the Bible, even though his number would be off by three orders of magnitude.

597 posted on 06/13/2007 11:12:32 AM PDT by js1138
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To: hosepipe
Most of the Western World is still ignorant that Socialism is Slavery by Government

I’ll have to dispute that ‘ignorant’ part. You cut the Western World way too much slack. They (the WW) aren’t ignorant of their peril; they simply don’t wish to disturb their cozy little womb by confessing a knowledge requiring radical action that would be distasteful. They cannot, however, escape their fate (dragging us along with them, of course), and the reckoning approaches. The atmosphere reminds me of the late Thirties. Spooky.

598 posted on 06/13/2007 11:31:15 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
I would that it were merely oblivious to the peril, but the statements of some scientists drip with contempt for philosophy and theology. They are biting the hand that feeds them.

Point taken. I simply wished, at this time, not to be overly harsh. Figured I had already kicked enough sleeping dogs. { 8^)

599 posted on 06/13/2007 11:33:07 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: hosepipe; .30Carbine
I already tried writing that one ... the short novel is title Turnabout and the central character is an atheist revived from an NDE to proclaim he has been absolutely incorrect, there is God and He is intimately interested in each and every one of us (the revived atheist-turned-believer names Christ as The Listener), most especially at these end times before the beginning of the next age, that God's Spirit transforms the saved by renewing the mind through eliminating the diseases of the human spirit within those professing trust/faith in Christ, the man-form of God the Eternal Creator. Writing the novel was cathartic, to say the least.
600 posted on 06/13/2007 11:35:00 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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