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'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

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To: RightWhale
Either progress or evolution can be motion around a circular track.

Ah yes. “They shall run in great circles and be known as big wheels.” { 8^)

I don’t know that the progress v motion issue you raise is necessarily attributable to any particular discipline or dogma. A great deal of it, I suspect, is simply attributable to the contrariness of human nature itself.

As progress (opposed to mere ‘motion’) what I specifically had in mind was certain self-evident truths, such as all men being created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. The clamour and scandal has not ceased since Mr. Jefferson first had the effrontery to utter these thoughts aloud. I’m sure others, of much greater intelligence than I, can think of many more examples.

601 posted on 06/13/2007 11:35:44 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop
3.1-billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information

Information is irrelevant.

602 posted on 06/13/2007 11:36:12 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
Fortunately, not all scientists disparage this tremendous cultural legacy.

True. Unfortunately, far too many do disparage this legacy, and remove their surest intellectual protection thereby.

603 posted on 06/13/2007 11:39:14 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

Progress as implying improvement, a school of thought among historians that died out about 1930. The sociologists also implied improvement by Progress, and that school of thought disappeared by 1950. Darwin was mystified by the extension of his insight to things other than biological species.


604 posted on 06/13/2007 11:40:51 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: YHAOS
[.. The atmosphere reminds me of the late Thirties. Spooky. ..]

Me too... When an general attitude allowed Hitler to be absorbed into government.. When extreme right wing solutions seemed practical.. by left wing poseurs..

Seems like Americas right wing has disappeared.. or gone silent.. Spooky indeed..

605 posted on 06/13/2007 11:41:20 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS; betty boop
Unfortunately, far too many do disparage this legacy, and remove their surest intellectual protection thereby.

That is the point, suicide by neglect.

606 posted on 06/13/2007 11:57:34 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis; YHAOS; RightWhale
You asked, "Can anyone give and example of a useful finding in science that depends for its authority, on personal revelation?" I, for one, am really glad you asked that question ... in my somewhat odd reading before bed last night (odd because I read the book a year or two ago and even made my writing notes and have used them and months ago set the book aside to move on to others), I came across several passages in Gerald Schroeder's recent book about the Mind of God which stimulated and addressed the very question you raise!

Perhaps you asked the question in too broad terms for your intent to denigrate spiritual revelation, but here are a couple or three examples of what you asked for as 'personal revelation' ... the creative 'aha' phenomenon is precisely personal revelation, personal perspective upon the universe which brings our instruction in body, soul, and spirit:

Watson and Crick imagining the double helix from their background research and the radiographic data of their lady colleague
The revelation/discovery of the benzene ring
Newton's conceptualization of gravity as the 'glue for holding the solar system together'
Einstein's special relativity revelation from the several concepts percolating his age (such as equations for frame of reference transformations)
Lister's concept of disease
... and there are many more one could cite. The point is, personal revelation is akin to spiritual awareness, both are based upon the accumulated learning of the mind (and stored and accessed via the brain for our current spacetime reality) which inspires the soul and enlivens the human spirit ... and in the case of scientific revelations, manifests in feedback phenomena we receive as scientific revelations regarding the nature of our universe of spacetime phenomena.

607 posted on 06/13/2007 12:01:50 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN

That’s right, IMHO. Every advance in science starts with nothing more nor less than revelation, every revelation being personal. Science itself is the content of the scientific journals, which is public recognition of the subjective as now objective.


608 posted on 06/13/2007 12:07:13 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: MHGinTN

Your definition of “revelation” would cover every original idea, whether right or wrong. I agree that we do not know how novel ideas occur, just as we do not know everything about how genetic variation occurs.

What makes science different than previous methods of acquiring knowledge is what happens after the revelation or inspiration.

Stephen Gould once wrote that he could have a dozen new ideas a day, but almost none would become productive.

There’s a joke that covers this: A mathematician needs only a pencil, paper and a wastebasket in order to work. A philosopher doesn’t need the wastebasket.

Inspiration is nothing but trouble without a way of discarding useless and unproductive ideas. It is the method of testing ideas that distinguishes science from philosophy and religion.


609 posted on 06/13/2007 12:16:55 PM PDT by js1138
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To: RightWhale

You express thoughts so clearly with such a conservation of words ... probably due to your vast reading behavior. I must agree 100% with your assessment ... subjective to objective via the mind/brain exchange/interconnections.


610 posted on 06/13/2007 12:19:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

My take on JS question is that no monkey or ape ever attempted to worship “a” spiritual god.. but man EVOLVED to do that in every place man has gone.. Unless man didn’t EVOLVE at all, he was made that way.. Why would man evolve that quale?..


611 posted on 06/13/2007 12:22:57 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MHGinTN
Yes, all that I post is from sources. I do not post my own stuff. Unfortunately, what I post is from memory and put into my own wordy words, so the original would be more succinct in most cases.

My own stuff is very ordinary and probably of little interest to those few who can decipher the code.

612 posted on 06/13/2007 12:25:53 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: hosepipe

Good question, hosepipe! Of what advantage is the ‘evolved’ trait to seek the diety?... And if it is a real quality of humankind, why would scientists denigrate the ‘evolved’ quality when it has a survival value?


613 posted on 06/13/2007 12:28:44 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: hosepipe
Of course, my own answer would be that we have a spirit which raises our soul to a higher dimensional quality and we are evolving on that higher level, much as Alamo_Girl and betty boop noted, ‘being sanctified’, becoming that which God designed for us to become in honor to His Son Who is already ‘there’, able to appear and disappear from a spacetime coordinate, able to transform spittle-based mud to healing balm, able to walk upon water, able to raise Himself from the dead state of His physical body, etc. ... talk about quales!
614 posted on 06/13/2007 12:33:01 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN
[.. Good question, hosepipe! Of what advantage is the ‘evolved’ trait to seek the diety?... And if it is a real quality of humankind, why would scientists denigrate the ‘evolved’ quality when it has a survival value? ..]

Scientists have generally not discovered the only way to evolve from being a primate is to be "born again"... as another creature.. In that way Jesus believed in evolution..

"You MUST be born again"- Jesus

615 posted on 06/13/2007 12:35:59 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MHGinTN
Turnabout???

Already been done: Thorne Smith (1931). You should give it a try.

616 posted on 06/13/2007 12:40:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: MHGinTN

Bump that!!!


617 posted on 06/13/2007 12:43:00 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Coyoteman
Uh oh, I'm gonna have to look at renaming my short novel! ... Turnabout by Thorne Smith = Satyrical language and unusual incidents elevate this tale of a businessman, unhappily married, whose marriage is taken in hand by Mr. Ram, an incarnation ( in the form of a statue kept in Wim and Sally Willows' bedroom) of an ancient Egyptian god.

Um, that novel is not anything like my little story, but the name/title makes naming it problematic don'tchaknow. Thanks for the link, coyoteman. Your depth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me ... but then, I'm a simple man.

618 posted on 06/13/2007 12:46:57 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: hosepipe
World English Bible
James 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother`s womb, and be born?"
James 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can`t enter into the kingdom of God!"

I would submit to this forum, friend hosepipe, that Jesus was describing a process He knew to be the evolutionary process God instituted, where a being is 'born' of the woman's body (exits the water world of the womb) and 'born' of the Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God, the next reality of the Universe.

619 posted on 06/13/2007 12:57:02 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN

Um, typo ... those passages are from John’s Gospel, chapter 3, not James. Need coffee, or a nap. LOL


620 posted on 06/13/2007 12:58:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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