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'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

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To: RightWhale
Either progress or evolution can be motion around a circular track.

Ah yes. “They shall run in great circles and be known as big wheels.” { 8^)

I don’t know that the progress v motion issue you raise is necessarily attributable to any particular discipline or dogma. A great deal of it, I suspect, is simply attributable to the contrariness of human nature itself.

As progress (opposed to mere ‘motion’) what I specifically had in mind was certain self-evident truths, such as all men being created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. The clamour and scandal has not ceased since Mr. Jefferson first had the effrontery to utter these thoughts aloud. I’m sure others, of much greater intelligence than I, can think of many more examples.

601 posted on 06/13/2007 11:35:44 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop
3.1-billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information

Information is irrelevant.

602 posted on 06/13/2007 11:36:12 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
Fortunately, not all scientists disparage this tremendous cultural legacy.

True. Unfortunately, far too many do disparage this legacy, and remove their surest intellectual protection thereby.

603 posted on 06/13/2007 11:39:14 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

Progress as implying improvement, a school of thought among historians that died out about 1930. The sociologists also implied improvement by Progress, and that school of thought disappeared by 1950. Darwin was mystified by the extension of his insight to things other than biological species.


604 posted on 06/13/2007 11:40:51 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: YHAOS
[.. The atmosphere reminds me of the late Thirties. Spooky. ..]

Me too... When an general attitude allowed Hitler to be absorbed into government.. When extreme right wing solutions seemed practical.. by left wing poseurs..

Seems like Americas right wing has disappeared.. or gone silent.. Spooky indeed..

605 posted on 06/13/2007 11:41:20 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS; betty boop
Unfortunately, far too many do disparage this legacy, and remove their surest intellectual protection thereby.

That is the point, suicide by neglect.

606 posted on 06/13/2007 11:57:34 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: js1138; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis; YHAOS; RightWhale
You asked, "Can anyone give and example of a useful finding in science that depends for its authority, on personal revelation?" I, for one, am really glad you asked that question ... in my somewhat odd reading before bed last night (odd because I read the book a year or two ago and even made my writing notes and have used them and months ago set the book aside to move on to others), I came across several passages in Gerald Schroeder's recent book about the Mind of God which stimulated and addressed the very question you raise!

Perhaps you asked the question in too broad terms for your intent to denigrate spiritual revelation, but here are a couple or three examples of what you asked for as 'personal revelation' ... the creative 'aha' phenomenon is precisely personal revelation, personal perspective upon the universe which brings our instruction in body, soul, and spirit:

Watson and Crick imagining the double helix from their background research and the radiographic data of their lady colleague
The revelation/discovery of the benzene ring
Newton's conceptualization of gravity as the 'glue for holding the solar system together'
Einstein's special relativity revelation from the several concepts percolating his age (such as equations for frame of reference transformations)
Lister's concept of disease
... and there are many more one could cite. The point is, personal revelation is akin to spiritual awareness, both are based upon the accumulated learning of the mind (and stored and accessed via the brain for our current spacetime reality) which inspires the soul and enlivens the human spirit ... and in the case of scientific revelations, manifests in feedback phenomena we receive as scientific revelations regarding the nature of our universe of spacetime phenomena.

607 posted on 06/13/2007 12:01:50 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN

That’s right, IMHO. Every advance in science starts with nothing more nor less than revelation, every revelation being personal. Science itself is the content of the scientific journals, which is public recognition of the subjective as now objective.


608 posted on 06/13/2007 12:07:13 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: MHGinTN

Your definition of “revelation” would cover every original idea, whether right or wrong. I agree that we do not know how novel ideas occur, just as we do not know everything about how genetic variation occurs.

What makes science different than previous methods of acquiring knowledge is what happens after the revelation or inspiration.

Stephen Gould once wrote that he could have a dozen new ideas a day, but almost none would become productive.

There’s a joke that covers this: A mathematician needs only a pencil, paper and a wastebasket in order to work. A philosopher doesn’t need the wastebasket.

Inspiration is nothing but trouble without a way of discarding useless and unproductive ideas. It is the method of testing ideas that distinguishes science from philosophy and religion.


609 posted on 06/13/2007 12:16:55 PM PDT by js1138
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To: RightWhale

You express thoughts so clearly with such a conservation of words ... probably due to your vast reading behavior. I must agree 100% with your assessment ... subjective to objective via the mind/brain exchange/interconnections.


610 posted on 06/13/2007 12:19:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

My take on JS question is that no monkey or ape ever attempted to worship “a” spiritual god.. but man EVOLVED to do that in every place man has gone.. Unless man didn’t EVOLVE at all, he was made that way.. Why would man evolve that quale?..


611 posted on 06/13/2007 12:22:57 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MHGinTN
Yes, all that I post is from sources. I do not post my own stuff. Unfortunately, what I post is from memory and put into my own wordy words, so the original would be more succinct in most cases.

My own stuff is very ordinary and probably of little interest to those few who can decipher the code.

612 posted on 06/13/2007 12:25:53 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: hosepipe

Good question, hosepipe! Of what advantage is the ‘evolved’ trait to seek the diety?... And if it is a real quality of humankind, why would scientists denigrate the ‘evolved’ quality when it has a survival value?


613 posted on 06/13/2007 12:28:44 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: hosepipe
Of course, my own answer would be that we have a spirit which raises our soul to a higher dimensional quality and we are evolving on that higher level, much as Alamo_Girl and betty boop noted, ‘being sanctified’, becoming that which God designed for us to become in honor to His Son Who is already ‘there’, able to appear and disappear from a spacetime coordinate, able to transform spittle-based mud to healing balm, able to walk upon water, able to raise Himself from the dead state of His physical body, etc. ... talk about quales!
614 posted on 06/13/2007 12:33:01 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN
[.. Good question, hosepipe! Of what advantage is the ‘evolved’ trait to seek the diety?... And if it is a real quality of humankind, why would scientists denigrate the ‘evolved’ quality when it has a survival value? ..]

Scientists have generally not discovered the only way to evolve from being a primate is to be "born again"... as another creature.. In that way Jesus believed in evolution..

"You MUST be born again"- Jesus

615 posted on 06/13/2007 12:35:59 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MHGinTN
Turnabout???

Already been done: Thorne Smith (1931). You should give it a try.

616 posted on 06/13/2007 12:40:06 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: MHGinTN

Bump that!!!


617 posted on 06/13/2007 12:43:00 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Coyoteman
Uh oh, I'm gonna have to look at renaming my short novel! ... Turnabout by Thorne Smith = Satyrical language and unusual incidents elevate this tale of a businessman, unhappily married, whose marriage is taken in hand by Mr. Ram, an incarnation ( in the form of a statue kept in Wim and Sally Willows' bedroom) of an ancient Egyptian god.

Um, that novel is not anything like my little story, but the name/title makes naming it problematic don'tchaknow. Thanks for the link, coyoteman. Your depth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me ... but then, I'm a simple man.

618 posted on 06/13/2007 12:46:57 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: hosepipe
World English Bible
James 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother`s womb, and be born?"
James 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he can`t enter into the kingdom of God!"

I would submit to this forum, friend hosepipe, that Jesus was describing a process He knew to be the evolutionary process God instituted, where a being is 'born' of the woman's body (exits the water world of the womb) and 'born' of the Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God, the next reality of the Universe.

619 posted on 06/13/2007 12:57:02 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN

Um, typo ... those passages are from John’s Gospel, chapter 3, not James. Need coffee, or a nap. LOL


620 posted on 06/13/2007 12:58:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN; hosepipe; betty boop
Thank you so much for your engaging and informative post!

Seems to me that mathematics even more so than science except perhaps physics is especially advanced by such personal revelations. Mathematicians and physicists deal in theory and universals all the time.

As Wigner observed, mathematics is unreasonably effective in the sciences.

My favorite example is Reimannian geometry which was developed with no application for it. The geometry was envisioned in the mind of Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann and he described it, mathematically. And yet Einstein was able to pull Reimannian geometry off-the-shelf to describe the structure of space/time, i.e. general relativity.

621 posted on 06/13/2007 1:17:44 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

And there is the example of Newton conceiving his mechanics, then developing the math to describe/mathematically express it. It always puts me in awe of the whole sheebang when I consider these sorts of examples. I find I wish I had the math background to express my ‘new paradigm’ for reality, my dimensions and variables and continua notion which considers life as sourced in a distinct dimension as real as space or time, and spirit sourced in a dimension as real as the others. It would make mathematical the concept of higher order beings, like humans, and Angels, etc.


622 posted on 06/13/2007 1:28:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: js1138
I think he was talking about the human genome....

Does the human genome have "pages?"

623 posted on 06/13/2007 1:34:57 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: RightWhale
Progress as implying improvement

Progress as a word describing a process. I’m aware, however, that one man’s progress can be another man’s excrement sandwich. Motives and objectives define ‘progress.’ Progress can be used as a political tool (the Progressive Party or ‘progressive’ political policies contrasted to another’s ill-conceived or evil intentions) suggesting a superiority of political motives and goals. I’m sorry, but I just can’t get very enthused over ‘schools of thought,’ preferring ideas instead.

Darwin was mystified by the extension of his insight to things other than biological species

I’m not sure mystified, or simply horrified. In any event, I take it that he treated the interested attentions of Marx as though encountering a skunk under the front porch. Marx was thrilled to make a connection between Darwin’s science and Marxian political and economic theories. Darwin couldn’t see it, and refused to affirm the relationship. Avoided it like the plague, as a matter of fact.

624 posted on 06/13/2007 1:48:15 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: MHGinTN; js1138

Fair answer.

But bad religion isn’t the only thing that threatens science. Science curriculum, especially in high school, is being overtaken by all sorts of oddities that don’t belong, e.g., sentimental ecology, race, and gender topics.


625 posted on 06/13/2007 1:50:45 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
"That is the point, suicide by neglect."

On that I believe we are all in accord.

626 posted on 06/13/2007 1:56:00 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: MHGinTN; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis; RightWhale
Perhaps you asked the question in too broad terms for your intent to denigrate spiritual revelation, but here are a couple or three examples of what you asked for as 'personal revelation' ... the creative 'aha' phenomenon is precisely personal revelation, personal perspective upon the universe which brings our instruction in body, soul, and spirit:

At the same time it informs our values and cements our affections as a people, or a culture.

627 posted on 06/13/2007 2:31:46 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: cornelis

That would be bad science in the sense that bad news is stuff on the news program that crowds out actual news.


628 posted on 06/13/2007 2:34:46 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: YHAOS
”Progress as implying improvement” Progress as a word describing a process.

Improvement is the meaning as used by sociologists such as Marx and by historians.

629 posted on 06/13/2007 2:38:03 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[.. Jesus was describing a process He knew to be the evolutionary process God instituted, where a being is 'born' of the woman's body (exits the water world of the womb) and 'born' of the Spirit, to enter into the kingdom of God, the next reality of the Universe. ..]

Being "born again" like most spiritual things it is metaphorical.. Describing the "Spirit" or even the "spirit" in human language is weak it takes a word picture to approach showing the observation.. Being "born again" is a word picture of something else.. the term is pregnant..

630 posted on 06/13/2007 2:39:49 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: cornelis; MHGinTN; js1138
"But bad religion isn’t the only thing that threatens science."

It strikes me that bad religion is the least of the modern threats to science (in the Western classroom), yet it seems to draw the greatest attention and the greatest ire from the "Masters of the Universe." Why is that do you suppose, or am I mistaken?

631 posted on 06/13/2007 3:05:15 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: RightWhale
"Improvement is the meaning as used by sociologists such as Marx and by historians."

Yes, I understand that is the meaning they wish to convey, but it is an excrement sandwich to some, just the same.

632 posted on 06/13/2007 3:15:09 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop
Does the human genome have "pages?"

What's your point? Are you maintaining your assertion that he was talking about the Bible?

Do I need to drag out the full context of the quotation?

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to “glimpse at the workings of God”.

“When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it,” he said. “But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

“When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.”

Collins joins a line of scientists whose research deepened their belief in God. Isaac Newton, whose discovery of the laws of gravity reshaped our understanding of the universe, said: “This most beautiful system could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful being.”


633 posted on 06/13/2007 3:51:38 PM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine; cornelis; YHAOS; MHGinTN
What's your point? Are you maintaining your assertion that he was talking about the Bible?

Yes, I maintain that.

Yet even if Dr. Collins were referring to the genome, my point would be made. I do understand, you see, that Dr. Collins is a recovered atheist....

I thank you for dragging out the full context. Like Einstein, Dr. Collins seems to resonate with the sort of thing presented here:

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of the things which do appear.”
— The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews 11:3

And then, there’s this:

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.”
— The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans 1: 20–23
All italics in the above are mine.

Just the merest suggestion of scripture about which we might reflect this evening. Or not, as the case may be.

Thanks so much for writing js1138!

634 posted on 06/13/2007 4:18:11 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Coyoteman
Did Gregor Mendel use divine revelation as his source of knowledge, or did he use the scientific method?

The question is not if he used the scientific method, but if he held divine revelation above that of science (given that he was a monk, it's safe to assume he did). From what you have said, his findings should be discarded.

635 posted on 06/13/2007 4:36:31 PM PDT by Hacksaw (Appalachian by the grace of God! Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: betty boop

The very first wording in Genesis conveys ‘With wisdom God created’ ... BUr’aShYTh. Information preceded space and time and matter ... and the Mind of God preceded information on the order of the universe as God deunified to allow dimensions to express and the universe to manifest and then become aware of itself and thus of God.


636 posted on 06/13/2007 4:46:50 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Hacksaw
Did Gregor Mendel use divine revelation as his source of knowledge, or did he use the scientific method?

The question is not if he used the scientific method, but if he held divine revelation above that of science (given that he was a monk, it's safe to assume he did). From what you have said, his findings should be discarded.

False. The method you follow determines what you are doing.

If you follow the scientific method, you are doing science. If you allow divine revelation to supersede your scientific findings you are certainly not doing science no matter what your scientific credentials may be.

637 posted on 06/13/2007 4:47:29 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: MHGinTN
Thank you so much for your insights and for the example of Newton!

It seems to me that the will to live is field-like in its behavior, i.e. fecundity principle or life principle. The universe, biosphere, collectives of organism, individual organisms, functions within organism – and individual cells – all struggle to survive and hierarchically at that.

The functions of an organism (e.g. cardiovascular) cooperate and the organism survives, individual organisms (e.g. army ants) cooperate and the collective survives, etc.

This behavior is also mentioned in Romans 8, the willful creature.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now – Romans 8:19-22

If there exists such a field it is likely expanded from the big bang – instead of compactified (Kaluza/Klein) in which case, the math would be akin to this: Five dimensional relativity and two times

It may be inter-dimensional as Lisa Randall suggests gravity might be.

Any hoot, that’s what I would expect.

638 posted on 06/13/2007 9:11:33 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: YHAOS
Indeed. Well said.
639 posted on 06/13/2007 9:18:38 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe
Describing the "Spirit" or even the "spirit" in human language is weak it takes a word picture to approach showing the observation..

Very true. Language fails. The only way to know the Holy Sirit is to know Him, to experience Him.

640 posted on 06/13/2007 9:20:39 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for those beautiful passages! They shall be my meditation when I logoff tonight.
641 posted on 06/13/2007 9:23:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I read Lisa's book last year. It was quite instructive on branes and possible mediators or communications between branes. I use bits here and there in That's In The Bible?, especially in the section I did on Daniel chapter five, the handwriting on the wall scene.

642 posted on 06/13/2007 10:58:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: betty boop
I swear you make my head hurt. He was not talking about the Bible, your stating so, or thinking he might have said so of it in other circumstances, or thinking it would be so nice if he would have said it, or supposing in some mystical fashion he was talking about both at the same time without knowing it does not change the fact that he was talking about the human genome.
643 posted on 06/14/2007 5:14:39 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes
...he was talking about the human genome....

Ultimately, he was speaking about God:

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to “glimpse at the workings of God”.

“When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it,” he said. “But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

“When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can’t survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can’t help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God’s mind.”

Why is that (seemingly) so difficult for you to accept?
644 posted on 06/14/2007 5:59:55 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
...the Mind of God preceded information on the order of the universe as God deunified to allow dimensions to express and the universe to manifest and then become aware of itself and thus of God.

Indeed, MHGinTN. And the spoken Word of God (sound) preceded the primordial light. The universe is "informed" at its root.

645 posted on 06/14/2007 6:03:32 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: betty boop
Why is that (seemingly) so difficult for you to accept?

Why is it so difficult for you to admit a mistake? This seems to be a habit of yours.

646 posted on 06/14/2007 6:39:56 AM PDT by js1138
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To: betty boop

You said he was speaking about the Bible. We pointed out he was speaking about the genome. It’s a trivial mistake (you trusted the wrong source), yet instead of saying, “Oops, I had the context wrong on that,” you continued to say that he was talking about the Bible, then said that he was talking about both simultaneously, and now say that he was talking about God. Duh! Of course he was talking about God, but he was definitely not talking about the Bible!

My question is why you have such a hard time backing down when we point out something you’ve quoted was actually never said or was said in a different context than you gave? We agree truth and what actually happened is important, right, so why is it you have to be dragged kicking and screaming into admitting the facts?


647 posted on 06/14/2007 7:02:48 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: MHGinTN
I'm so glad to hear it, dear MHGinTN! And I look forward to reading your book.
648 posted on 06/14/2007 7:51:15 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; MHGinTN
I look forward to reading your book.

Me too!!! :^)

649 posted on 06/14/2007 9:45:07 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: ahayes; js1138
My question is why you have such a hard time backing down when we point out something you’ve quoted was actually never said or was said in a different context than you gave?

I gather you two would rather discuss me and my shortcomings than the topic at hand. :^)

If you can't "win" on points, then disqualify your opponent.

650 posted on 06/14/2007 9:48:12 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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