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To: cornelis; betty boop; MHGinTN; hosepipe; RightWhale; Matchett-PI; grey_whiskers; .30Carbine; ...
Thank you oh so very much for including me in this wonderful sidebar – and thank you both for your outstanding, informative posts!

I approach the quandary from a different perspective, i.e. what a beginning means.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

All cosmologies – whether big bang, multi-verse, multi-world, ekpyrotic, cyclic, imaginary time, etc. – all of them – rely on space/time for physical causality.

The origin of space/time is a more fundamental issue in every discipline than is the origin of energy, the origin of information and the origin of life v. non-life/death in nature.

In making a beginning of “all that there is” – both spiritual and physical, God created space, time, causality, events and things - i.e. existence.

Which is to say, existence has no meaning apart from space/time, which is geometry. Even spiritual beings and eternity itself cannot "be" apart from time.

Moreover there is nothing of which any of these can be made but God Himself or more specifically, God’s will – whether His creative will or His permissive will or some other type of will of which I am unaware.

No God, no existence; no Beyond, no here. To that extent, they are complementary – but the reverse does not hold. God is (I AM) when every other existence is not, i.e. in the absence of time, God is. He is the only possible uncaused cause of "all that there is."

Those philosophers and scientists who formed their theories and systems before the measurement of cosmic microwave background radiation in the 1960’s could appeal to a steady state universe and thus rationally justify a reduced sense of reality that “all that there is” is that which can be perceived by physical senses or mental reasoning, i.e. rationalize their atheism and politics or ideologies based on it.

Since then, the ever consistent, accumulating evidence is that space/time is created as the universe expands. And it is not just expanding, but accelerating. IOW, there was a beginning of real space and real time – and therefore, physical causality, energy/matter, things and events. At the very minimum, there had to be an uncaused cause of the geometry, i.e. God.

Nowadays, all the atheists can do to justify their hope that God does not exist, is to theoretically push the beginning backwards to prior universes, prior causations. This is the plentitude argument, that anything that can happen, did. However, the plentitude argument requires an infinite past (space/time) and thus, these theories are merely obfuscations because whether brane theory or something else, all cosmologies rely on geometry for physical causation!

In sum, without an infinite past, no one can rationalize denying God the Creator. And there can be no existence - spiritual or physical - apart from God's will.

260 posted on 06/10/2007 7:39:18 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Neither time nor space exist. There are no patterns in nature. Also, information is inessential. Makes no sense, for sure, but in claustral philosophy, also called organic philosophy, it begins to.


261 posted on 06/10/2007 7:48:58 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Alamo-Girl
And there can be no existence - spiritual or physical - apart from God's will.

I am so glad for being pinged to your worthy post, and grateful most of all for this perfect (precise and concise!) conclusion. Amen!

262 posted on 06/10/2007 7:50:39 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Sacrifice is not always simple...but let it always be glorious, holy, and good, amen.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Nowadays, all the atheists can do to justify their hope that God does not exist, is to theoretically push the beginning backwards to prior universes, prior causations. This is the plentitude argument, that anything that can happen, did. However, the plentitude argument requires an infinite past (space/time) and thus, these theories are merely obfuscations because whether brane theory or something else, all cosmologies rely on geometry for physical causation!

In sum, without an infinite past, no one can rationalize denying God the Creator. And there can be no existence - spiritual or physical - apart from God's will.

Beautifully stated. "Without an infinite past, no one can rationalize denying God..."

The imponderable proves the existence of God.

363 posted on 06/10/2007 4:33:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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