Zach Doty, 18, and his brother Steven, 15, carry their firearms because they say it is their right and "a right not exercised is a right that can easily be taken away." Police have stopped the brothers twice after reports were called in to 911.
Posted on 05/20/2007 10:46:10 AM PDT by narses
POST FALLS -- Zach Doty is raising eyebrows by taking the Second Amendment for a walk.
Doty, who turned 18 last month, has been stopped by police twice in the past month after citizens spotted him with a loaded 9mm Glock pistol in a hip holster in plain view.
No citations were issued because Idaho code allows residents 18 and older to openly carry a firearm in public. To carry a concealed weapon, you must be 21 and have a permit.
The second time officers checked out Zach -- on Sunday at Poleline and Greensferry -- his 15-year-old brother, Steven, was carrying a .22-caliber rifle in a sling on his back. Again, there was no wrongdoing because teens 13 to 17, with parental permission, are allowed by Idaho law to carry a rifle.
The home-schooled brothers said they intend to continue to openly carry guns in public on a regular basis for self defense -- both as a crime deterrent and to educate others that it's the public's right.
"I certainly don't anticipate that I'll need to use it, but I'd rather have it and not need it than to not have it and need it," Zach said. "There's no reason for me to hide a weapon."
The brothers have been to the library, grocery stores, parks and other places with the guns. They're not allowed to openly carry on school property, in courthouses or jails.
The brothers sometimes walk the perimeter of Prairie View Elementary and Post Falls High on their way from home to Post Falls Presbyterian Church, where they attend on Poleline. (Not to be confused with Community Presbyterian.) Zach was stopped by police on April 17 while walking to Bible study.
On Friday, police responded to the Q'emiln Park trails after someone reported seeing the Dotys with guns. When they verified that it was the family, they left.
Open carry 101
Zach, who recites sections of the Constitution and court cases about guns with ease, said about 12 people have approached him to inquire about the guns since he began openly carrying a month ago. Others, including some at the Post Falls Library on Thursday, appear curious but don't say anything.
"There have been good opportunities to speak to people," he said. "I make sure they know that open carrying is legal, why I carry and I encourage them to consider doing so themselves."
James Rebal, Coeur d'Alene, notified police after he saw Doty with his pistol on Sunday on Idaho Street.
"I turned back so that my wife could verify what I saw," Rebal said. "He was very nicely dressed and I saw nothing to be concerned about other than the weapon. It's not something you see in Idaho. Virginia Tech was fresh in my mind, and I thought it was better to err on the side of concern."
Rebal said he believes times have changed, even though open carrying has not.
"When I lived in Arizona, some people would have guns, but there was no cause for concern," he said. "It was not often, but it was also not unusual.
"Maybe the world situation now -- terrorists, Virginia Tech, Columbine -- has caused that level of concern. Maybe we're all a little jittery on a national basis and I don't think that that's all bad. It's better to report something suspicious than not."
John Dunlap, commander of American Legion Post 143, said he asked Zach to leave the Legion recently at lunch because he had the pistol.
"He left and came back the next day (without the gun) for soup," Dunlap said, describing the brothers as "well-mannered."
Ed Santos, owner of Center Target Sports in Post Falls and a gun safety instructor, said the Dotys came to his business, but he doesn't sell handgun ammunition to those under 21, and a parental presence is required for teens to shoot at his facility. Santos said, however, just because the teens are carrying guns doesn't mean they are not responsible with them.
"My advice for them is the same as it is with adults -- yes it's your right and yes it's legal, but why draw unnecessary attention to yourself that is not necessary or just because you can?" Santos said. "My hope for anyone who possesses a gun is that they know the basic ground rules of gun safety."
Openly carrying guns is allowable in many states, but Santos said he wonders if having guns in plain view on city streets while just being out and about was the intent of the law writers.
"I believe the intent was to allow it more for hunting and recreation," Santos said.
Zach said he completed a gun safety course in Washington several years ago before he obtained his hunting license.
Open carry reasons
Zach said he's not a radical or paranoid and believes it is not necessary for everyone to openly carry.
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said, adding that he hopes to start an open carry group. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
Steven said he carries the rifle for self-defense, because it's legal and "to just do it."
"I haven't done it too much, but I'll continue to do it," he said.
The brothers' father, Jude, said he's proud of his sons for exercising their rights.
"None of my seven youth have even shot out a window with a BB gun, but you're more responsible when you walk with your liberties," he said.
Zach said a female cousin and her friend were recently held hostage and molested, so his feelings about carrying a gun as a deterrent has hit close to home. Serious crime happens even in areas that appear to be safe, he said.
"You never expect crime anywhere," he said. "It's not that I'm afraid or paranoid; I just want to be prepared."
He argues that some tragedies such as Virginia Tech could be minimized if open carry was more prevalent, adding that those at scenes can respond quicker than police.
Zach said another reason for open carrying is a "test."
"I'm trying to test to see if the Constitution means anything," he said. "Part of the issue is to test to see exactly how much freedom we have in this nation."
He said the second time police stopped him, it appeared to be harassment because one of the officers indicated he recognized Zach from the previous encounter.
"It's the job of the law to protect people trying to exercise their rights," Zach said.
He believes his Fourth Amendment rights were violated because his gun was seized and disassembled for "no probable cause at all." It was then returned to him.
Zach said he intends to file complaints for false arrest because, even though he was not handcuffed, he was detained for at least 20 minutes.
"Just because (open carrying) is uncommon, it doesn't give them grounds (for a search and seizure)," he said. "(Police) contended that mere suspicion was sufficient, and I rebutted their contention by explaining that reasonable suspicion is grounds for arrest only in felonies."
Police response weapon
Post Falls Police Chief Cliff Hayes said his agency is still adapting to the teens carrying guns.
"Zach is exercising a right given under law to a greater degree than other people have in my 20-plus year history here," he said.
He said officers will continue to respond to calls to verify it is the Dotys and he encourages the public not to assume that it is them.
"We have always stopped people walking with guns in Post Falls," he said. "We check them out and see why. If he was older we would not be stopping him (repeatedly), but he looks young and all of the patrol does not know him yet."
Officers have been given Zach's picture so they can become familiar with him. Hayes said Zach did not notify police he was going to openly carry, so reports of the teens walking with guns caught the agency by surprise.
Zach did not have identification on him to verify he was 18 during Sunday's stop, but his mother responded with a medical card for verification.
"In the future, when the public calls, patrol will drive by and if it is Zach, they will just clear the call without contact," Hayes said. "We'll leave him alone unless a law is being broken."
Hayes said he has met with Zach and Jude to explain some of the public's concern and that many people don't know about the open carry law.
"This is going to alarm some residents, but it is still current law," he said. "Most of the public does not understand that this is legal."
Hayes said he believes businesses and facilities can post gun-free zone signs if they are concerned about the law.
"It is my opinion that that would supersede the guns because it would be in violation of a rule that the business has established," Hayes said.
Zach said gun-free zones don't help anyone except criminals.
Jude, who said he moved his family to Post Falls from Washington about two years ago to flee legal battles, said he does not openly carry.
"I certainly support (Zach and Steven), but I have enough battles of my own," he said. "There should be a very healthy distrust for anyone in authority."
Jude is fighting fines and penalties levied by the Washington Department of Labor and Industries for alleged violations of child labor laws with the family's home-moving business.
"We're on our third layer of court appeals," Jude said. "I'm in court in Yakima virtually every week. We went from a 5,000-square foot house to an RV."
Zach said he knows that carrying a gun is uncommon, but he's trying to change that.
"I'm just trying to exercise a right that I have no reason to hide," Zach said.
Zach Doty, 18, and his brother Steven, 15, carry their firearms because they say it is their right and "a right not exercised is a right that can easily be taken away." Police have stopped the brothers twice after reports were called in to 911.
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Do I need to explain to anyone why it is that I live in Idaho?
What’s the law on open carry in the other states and territories?
I wholeheartedly approve of what they’re doing. My question is why a veterans support organization like the American Legion asked him not to bring a gun? You’d think they would understand the need for self defense.
The categories are defined as follows:
Gold Star Open Carry States - To qualify for this category, a state must have passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They must also permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens without permit or license. Also open carry must be lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.
Licensed Open Carry States - To qualify as for this category, a state must have passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They must also permit open carry to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Also open carry must be lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle.
Anomalous Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is generally lawful, but the state may lack preemption or there may be other significant restrictions.
Non-Permissive Open Carry States - In these states, open carry is not lawful, or is only lawful under such a limited set of circumstances that it is meaningless.
As the map shows, only seven states and the District of Columbia fully prohibit the open carry of firearms. Additionally, there are eleven states which permit open carry without requiring the citizen to apply for any permit or license.
Disclaimer: While state law may not prohibit the open carry of loaded firearms, it is not uncommon for law enforcement to be unaware of this fact. Especially in states with highly restrictive laws regarding firearms ownership, even though legal, open carry could result in serious negative consequences.
When I was a teenager, and before that, we carried firearms all over the county, and I live in CA. This was before people were brainwashed by the left to the point where they faint if they see a firearm.
Nothing wrong with these kids at all. I used to open carry my pistol or rifle from my house to shoot on public land at about the same age - and that was in California in the 1970’s.
“The way men live is so far removed from the way they ought to live, that anyone who abandons what is for what should be pursues his downfall rather than his preservation.” Machievelli
Thanks for the post and the map.
Good for them!!
California used to be that way ~ I remember when I was 19, I carried my semi auto sidearm around in a holster, while riding my motorcycle, on my way to plinking in the Redwood City hills.
Okay, I’ve got a question for anyone on this thread. I live in Texas and have a concealed carry license.
From what I understand, it is NOT legal to carry openly (unconcealed) here. And I’m unclear on the reasoning behind that.
What is the thinking? Why is concealed okay and “open” carry not okay? Is it just to keep other people from feeling threatened or “troubled”?
Or is there something else?
Personally, I would like it if more people did exactly what they are doing.
“What is the thinking? Why is concealed okay and “open” carry not okay? Is it just to keep other people from feeling threatened or “troubled”?”
Open carry is provocative, it causes people to respond in whichever manner their personality dictates, for some it stirs fear, for others it seems challenging, or annoying.
Florida legalized open carry in the 80s, but they changed it to concealed carry after a year or so.
“My advice for them is the same as it is with adults — yes it’s your right and yes it’s legal, but why draw unnecessary attention to yourself that is not necessary or just because you can?”
IMHO, I have to agree with this statement. I’m sure these fine young men have the best of intentions, but it looks like grandstanding to me.
Either a liquor license or insurance issue, most likely.
...Openly carrying guns is allowable in many states, but Santos said he wonders if having guns in plain view on city streets while just being out and about was the intent of the law writers.
Ed Santos is a well-trained puppy, and a demagogue's dream.
The Founding Fathers made no such distinction between how and where to carry.
In fact, most of the carries at the time were probably concealed, admittedly a better method.
Better, but no longer allowed by our "masters".
This is why I like living in Idaho too.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
"Openly carrying guns is allowable in many states, but Santos said he wonders if having guns in plain view on city streets while just being out and about was the intent of the law writers."
It's remarkable how firm a grasp of basics some of our younger generation have.
It took a lifetime of actual war and fighting for George Orwell to remark on the same subject:
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -- GEORGE ORWELL
Ditto. I live in Chubbuck (next to Pocatello). I think these people must be recent arrivals from another state. Questioning the intent of "open carry" laws sounds like the mindset of a bedwetting liberal. If it bothers them, they should move to Illinois.
I would place all those paranoid or neurotic feelings firmly into the ,"that's their problem!" category.
when i was a kid in the 50’s, i used to buy dynmite for my dad at the general store 25 cents a stick.
I agree wholeheartedly. He plays into the hands of the brady bunch. Further evidence:
“I believe the intent was to allow it more for hunting and recreation,” Santos said.”
If we keep saying that the original intent was for hunting and recreation, it eventually becomes fact that guns are only for hunting and recreation. It follows that only thoe described by law as “hunting” and “recreational” guns will be allowed. Then it’s a simple matter to redefine and restrict those who can “hunt” and enjoy “recreation.” This is why there is such an unrelenting drumbeat of terms like “assault weapons,” “military-style firearms,” and “automatic weapons” so commonly in use. The hunt is on to eliminate as quickly as possible one category of firearm after another. Santos is no help. Let’s get Santos into rehab quick.
“I would place all those paranoid or neurotic feelings firmly into the ,”that’s their problem!” category.”
Easy for some people to say, but for those of us with a lifetime of experience in dealing with that sort of thing we recognize it as a reality.
Concealed carry is an easy answer to the issue.
In the late 60s, I was visiting my old man at his house in town with my young son, and we were playing some catch in the yard with a football. He threw it to me and I had to jump to catch it, and after I caught it I looked down and saw that I was about to land on a water moccasin that was curled up in Dad’s yard.
I spread my feet out to avoid touching it; then, after making my little boy go in the house, ran to my car and grabbed my .45 ACP and killed the snake.
I shudder to think of the result of such an event today.
You can open carry here in Ne. also. I just noticed a sign at our bank that showed a pistol in a circle with a red slash through it. We just passed CCW so I guess we’ll be seeing more of them.
Yup, back then I used to hire out to blow tree stumps, bought the stuff by the case as well as caps.
Not in the least. But, you might want to educate Santos on the history of both the 2nd Amendment, and the legislative history of the 2nd Amendment.
“I believe the intent was to allow it more for hunting and recreation,” Santos said. Defense of life and liberty, according to the legislative history and the 2nd Amendment, NOT hunting & recreation are the reasons for the 2nd Amendment
There’s no permit for it. THat’s all. What you need is to try to get a bill proposed to make your concealed carry permits turned into carry permits. This would allow the permit holder to choose how to carry...open or concealed.
That’s because you have been conditioned to think of guns as something evil or dirty...like those adult magazines in plain brown wrappers.
State constitutions got into the business of regulating concealed carry around 1850. I wonder why?
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/statecon.htm
“Part of the issue is to test to see exactly how much freedom we have in this nation.”
We won’t have much if Hitlery gets elected. If they had done this when her husband was in office, he would have had the BATF go after them.
While I’m comforted by the fact that 4 million + gun owners can be an extreme deterant to the government making moves on gun rights, what I’m hearing from people upset about Virginia Tech is making me nervous. I’ve already seen some letters in magazines and newspapers where people are calling for guns to be removed from American society by any means necessary. Those are NOT comforting words.
Hehe...I’d put them all firmly in the “raise fist and lift middle finger” category.
Look up what happened at Ruby Ridge and/or Waco; those sound like good possibilities.
I heard Utah is the only state that lets you carry on a school campus. I wish the other states would grow a brain and allow it.
It bothers me greatly that a law officer would make such an inane statement. Who is he to decide the "extent" to which citizens are allowed to exercise rights? Or that rights have "degrees"??
Before becoming Chief of Police, Hayes ran a grocery store.
I know who Jim Crow is. Just seems to me that the worst of that happened after the War Between the States. This appears to have started earlier.
There were a lot of factors, the start of urbanization and industrial development, immigration issues and even religious issues. The westward development and the frontier issues contributed as well.
G_d bles these two young men.
And keep them safe from any trigger happy LEO who decides these two boys “brandished” a weapon in his general direction...
In the summer of 1965 we lived in Orange, CA. I was 8 yrs old and had saved $35 from mowing lawns, and wanted a 22 rifle. My Dad walked down to the corner hardware store with me and we bought a Marlin bolt action 22 complete with sling and ammo. I carried it slung on my back the 4 blocks back to our house. The next day we took it down to the police pistol range (which was open to the public) and he taught me to shoot it. I still have it.
Open Carry is legal here in Virginia, and I like having the option even though I carry concealed most of the time. That is except in restaurants that serve alcohol, where you either have to OC or go unarmed (which is not an option in my book).
Or maybe, Mr. Rebal, you're a typical scared-rabbit wuss.
For the yummy potatoes?
Actually, that would be inferior to a typical open carry state, such as here in AZ. Here, as in many other open carry states, it requires no permit, so your name is not on file with the state as it is with CC. So if you got the TX laws changed in the way you state, you’d be settling for hamburger when what you really want is steak. Now if we can just get concealed carry here without a permit!
Didn’t want those Negroes gettin too “uppity”. Similar mindset to gun-controllers today; don’t want those who think they live in a free country getting too “uppity”.
Very possible. Let’s hope it’s for a reason such as that.
He didn’t say he was making a value judgement on the kids actions, just saying he was more fully exercising his rights than most people he’d met.
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