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Dinosaur 'feathers' are no such thing
ABC.net ^ | May 23, 2007 | Staff

Posted on 05/22/2007 8:36:06 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger

The theory that dinosaurs gave rise to birds has been dealt a blow by palaeontologists who have examined critical evidence from a Chinese fossil.

The discoverers of the turkey-sized dinosaur Sinosauropteryx say it would have had primitive feathers, supporting the bird-from-dinosaurs theory.

But the latest research says these 'proto-feathers' are really frilly structures on the creature's back.

Researchers led by South African academic Professor Theagarten Lingham-Soliar at the University of KwaZulu-Natal publish their study in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B.

The debate focuses on Sinosauropteryx, a fossil found in 1994 by a farmer in Liaoning province, northeastern China.

This region is a treasure trove of the Early Cretaceous period some 130 million years ago.

The long-tailed, meat-eating dinosaur was covered with a down of fibres that its Chinese researchers said were primitive feathers.

Although the 'feathers' were clearly not capable of flight, their existence dramatically supported a theory first aired in the 1970s that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

As a result, a once-outlandish notion has become the mainstream concept for the ascent of Aves, as birds are classified.

But when researchers examined a recently discovered specimen of Sinoauropteryx, also from Liaoning, they came to very different conclusions.

When they examined the fossil under a high-powered microscope, the researchers said the two-branched structures, called rachis with barbs, are really the remains of a frill of collagen fibres that ran down the dinosaur's back from head to tail.

"The fibres show a striking similarity to the structure and levels of organisation of dermal collagen," the kind of tough elastic strands found on the skin of sharks and reptiles today, the investigators say.

The fibres have an unusual beaded structure, but this most likely was caused by a natural twisting of these strands, and a clumping together caused by dehydration, when the dinosaur died and its tissues started to dry.

The tough fibres could have been either a form of armour to protect the small dinosaur from predators, or perhaps had a structural use, by stiffening its tail.

From the first known bird

The first known bird is Archaeopteryx, which lived around 150 million years ago.

What is missing are the links between Archaeopteryx and other species that would show how it evolved.

But the fossil record is frustratingly small and incomplete and this is why debate has been so fierce.

The birds-from-dinosaur theory is based on the idea that small, specialised theropod dinosaurs gained an advantage by developing plant-eating habits, growing feathers to keep warm and taking to the trees for safety.

From there, it was a relatively small step for these carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs with three-toed feet to developing gliding skills and then the ability to fly.

Lingham-Soliar's team does not take issue with the theory itself.

But they are dismayed by what they see as a reckless leap to the conclusion that Sinoauropeteryx had the all-important proto-feathers, even though this dinosaur was phylogenetically far removed from Archaeopteryx.

The evidence in support of the primitive feathers lacked serious investigation, Lingham-Soliar says.

"There is not a single close-up representation of the integumental structure alleged to be a proto-feather," Lingham-Soliar says.

Given that the evolution of the feather is a pivotal moment in the history of life, he says "scientific rigour is called for".


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: afoolandhismoney; christianmythology; crevo; crevolist; dinosaurs; dlrhumor; evolution; fsmdidit; hatefulevos; idiocy; mythology; sendmemoney; superstition; wherespat
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**Note** ABC.net is different from the ABC network in America.
1 posted on 05/22/2007 8:36:08 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me



This is only what creationists have been pointing out for years.

A couple of quick notes:

GrandEagle, a member of our group, passed away recently. Please remember to pray for his family.

Also, the Answers in Genesis grand opening is taking place this Memorial Day. Group rates are available, but there must be more than 15, and it's only a dollar off anyway, plus you have to give them advance notice, so doing a Free Republic creationist group is probably untenable, and there hasn't been any interest expressed anyway.

I will be there if anyone shows up. Evolutionists, you are welcome too, but don't come looking for a fight.
2 posted on 05/22/2007 8:39:19 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Oh. I just so surprised to hear that. Who ever would have imagined that?


3 posted on 05/22/2007 8:41:30 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Another nail in the coffin of religious Darwinism.


4 posted on 05/22/2007 8:42:33 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: DaveLoneRanger
From there, it was a relatively small step for these carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs with three-toed feet to developing gliding skills and then the ability to fly.

They just have it all figured out, don't they.
5 posted on 05/22/2007 8:52:16 PM PDT by microgood
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Translation please?


6 posted on 05/22/2007 8:55:49 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: DaveLoneRanger

That’s a pretty misleading title. Reading the body, they just claim that their evidence discounts one species of dinosaur [as a missing link between dinos and birds].


7 posted on 05/22/2007 8:56:00 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Lingham-Soliar's team does not take issue with the theory itself.

But DLR does.

What a laugh. Study some science and get back to us.

8 posted on 05/22/2007 8:56:35 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Belief in evolution is based on faith, not scientific proof. Just add this to the long list of missing links that weren’t.


9 posted on 05/22/2007 9:03:09 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: jpsb

It’s a blow against the theory that dinosaurs evolved feathers and evolved into birds.


10 posted on 05/22/2007 9:06:32 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: Calvin Locke

Flimsy as it was, this is a pretty big confirmation against the dino-to-bird evolution theory. Evolutionists with a pinch of faith and a magnifying glasses, little shreds of collogen can look like the beginnings of feathers to them.


11 posted on 05/22/2007 9:08:04 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: Coyoteman

Not science? This is from a scientific journal. How is it not science? I’m beginning to think that ANY blow against evolution isn’t science in your mind!

And this is supposed to be your response? Weak. I’d ask if I can quote you on it, but there’s nothing to quote.


12 posted on 05/22/2007 9:10:32 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

thanks, I thought that was pretty much proven, trex turned into a turkey, not so? Damn back to school AGAIN.


13 posted on 05/22/2007 9:10:34 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: Coyoteman

Haul out the “you’re an apologist” mantra next, pleeeaase?


14 posted on 05/22/2007 9:11:07 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Evolutionists, you are welcome too, but don't come looking for a fight.

Thanks, but we have comedy clubs in Seattle.

15 posted on 05/22/2007 9:11:21 PM PDT by blowfish
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To: GodGunsGuts

You are so right! Darwinism IS a religion and looking at the evidence, it takes more faith to buy that than believing in God. see my tagline (they cry , science, science, but science is what is proving them wrong)


16 posted on 05/22/2007 9:11:53 PM PDT by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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To: blowfish

Ye also have the Discovery Institute. *Gasp*


17 posted on 05/22/2007 9:13:31 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: fish hawk

==Darwinism IS a religion and looking at the evidence, it takes more faith to buy that than believing in God.

Yep, we are up against a religious cult, and we should treat them as such.


18 posted on 05/22/2007 9:13:34 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Yeah: a comedy club that’s all the funnier because they take themselves seriously.


19 posted on 05/22/2007 9:15:22 PM PDT by blowfish
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To: fish hawk

I hope this is not going to turn into another food fight, G*d has nothing at all to fear from science, given time science will prove that without G*d there would be nothing. Give science a chance!


20 posted on 05/22/2007 9:15:42 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: blowfish

The way evolutionists have been hitting back at them (and challenging them in court), IDists aren’t the only ones taking themselves seriously.


21 posted on 05/22/2007 9:16:58 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Gun-free zones are a mass murderer's first choice.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
It is fine to have spiritual beliefs, but it is irresponsible not to understand and study the working of science and the physical universe AS IT IS. Otherwise, you fail in knowledge and fall far from strength.
22 posted on 05/22/2007 9:17:43 PM PDT by Porterville (illegal gay mexicans are sneaking over our border and unplugging our brain dead women)
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To: jpsb

What you’re saying makes sense. It’s sensible to say that the truth must support God. Apparently some religious people don’t believe that or they lack faith.


23 posted on 05/22/2007 9:20:14 PM PDT by Moonman62 (The issue of whether cheap labor makes America great should have been settled by the Civil War.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Maybe evolutionists are full of crap.

I wonder if they ever even consider that possibility.


24 posted on 05/22/2007 9:20:31 PM PDT by Bullish ( Reality is the best cure for delusion.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Lizards with feathers doesn’t explain the leap from cold blooded to warm blooded..


25 posted on 05/22/2007 9:22:31 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Taz Struck By Lightning Faces Battery Charge)
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To: jpsb

God created science.


26 posted on 05/22/2007 9:27:37 PM PDT by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I don’t understand the animosity between those that seek the true via science and those that seek the truth via G*d. Science has done a great deal in the last 100 years to validate the history as presented in the old testament. Truth is truth, I believe in G*d and I believe science will prove G*d exists. In fact in my mind science already has. Given nothing what is the probability of something? Zero. Eargo G*d exists. In the beginning G*d said let there be light. Big band=light. I could continue, LOL, science “first there was nothing and then it exploded”. LOL, G*d exists, no doubt about it.


27 posted on 05/22/2007 9:29:03 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: Porterville
It is fine to have spiritual beliefs, but it is irresponsible not to understand and study the working of science and the physical universe AS IT IS. Otherwise, you fail in knowledge and fall far from strength.

Very true, but can we call a guess a guess? First it's the big bang, then not the big bang, dinosaurs are all green, now they're brilliantly colored. This one has feathers now it doesn't. Their "theories" just don't mean much to me.

28 posted on 05/22/2007 9:29:31 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe (Ah don't feeeeel no ways taihrd.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
But the latest research says these 'proto-feathers' are really frilly structures on the creature's back.

As anyone who has ever plucked a game bird could tell you, pulling out those frilly structures, by what ever name one chooses to give them, without tearing the skin, is a thankless task.

29 posted on 05/22/2007 9:31:27 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The Fount of Wisdom hath spoken...and spoken...and still speaketh on, & on, & on...)
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To: Bullish

==Maybe evolutionists are full of crap...I wonder if they ever even consider that possibility.

By now, I’m sure they’ve grown used to the stench. Although, Darwin struggled with it...at least at first.


30 posted on 05/22/2007 9:31:41 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: DaveLoneRanger
These guys don’t explain away the recent studies of the Fully preserved bone tissue from a T-rex found. Very, very bird like.
31 posted on 05/22/2007 9:33:01 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: fish hawk

Darwinists certainly revert to sarcasm or name calling faster than non-Darwinists. I am not a scientist, but I can read the human heart rather well at times.


32 posted on 05/22/2007 9:33:24 PM PDT by ashtanga
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To: Moonman62

I have stayed out of these fights for a long time, the old testament is a history written by man. Mistakens were made, man is not perfect. The old testament is 95% percent historically correct, a few minor mistakes here and there, nothing too get all that upset about. These battles between science and creationist are a waste of time. What the hell does 7 days mean to the all mighty Creator? Anyone that claims to know that is only fooling themselves.


33 posted on 05/22/2007 9:36:34 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Given that fossils of actual birds pre-date Sinosauropteryx by hundreds of thousands of years, this lizard-bird link claim has always been suspect. This just confirms it. Hard lizard skin like the head of a horned-toad does not a feather make.


34 posted on 05/22/2007 9:37:59 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: jpsb

==These battles between science and creationist are a waste of time.

Then why waste YOUR time?


35 posted on 05/22/2007 9:39:20 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Lijahsbubbe
LOL, I can certainly understand that, it is kinda like particle physics. can’t explain the results invent a new particle. LOL, in the end science corrects itself after burning a few heretics of course.
36 posted on 05/22/2007 9:40:53 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: GodGunsGuts

bored, but time for bed, good night and G*d bless.


37 posted on 05/22/2007 9:41:50 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: jpsb

==LOL, in the end science corrects itself after burning a few heretics of course.

They just burned one. His name is Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez.


38 posted on 05/22/2007 9:43:50 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: jpsb

Right back at ya...GGG


39 posted on 05/22/2007 9:44:56 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
"Right back at ya."

thank you, tomorrow I will google Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez since I have never heard of him.

40 posted on 05/22/2007 9:47:41 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: jpsb

Here’s a few links for starters. Good night and G*d Bless—GGG

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2939&program=CSC%20-%20Views%20and%20News


41 posted on 05/22/2007 9:51:51 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: jpsb

Totally agree with your post 27. Well put. And I didn’t mean to reveal all of my ignorance about science in post 28. I go by the KISS model - keep it simple stupid. ;)


42 posted on 05/22/2007 9:52:30 PM PDT by Lijahsbubbe (Ah don't feeeeel no ways taihrd.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
GrandEagle, a member of our group, passed away recently. Please remember to pray for his family.

Sorry to hear that. I never saw any other postings on his passing.

43 posted on 05/22/2007 9:57:22 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: GodGunsGuts

Decided to stay up a little longer and google, thx for the link, I am pretty sure I have read or watched his theory on how special the earth is. If he is the man responsible for that work then he is a brilliant man. It is mind boggling for how many events had to happen at just the right time for earth to become the planet it is. Surely divine intervention was required.


44 posted on 05/22/2007 9:58:01 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: Lijahsbubbe
I argue with Darwinists all the time, I believe in science, scientific method demands repeatable provable results. Clearly there is a mechanism that creates more complex life out of simpler life, but IMHO NOBOBY knows what the mechanism is, as far as I am concerned it’s all guess work. Survival of the fittest does not work. Cosmic Rays is much more plausible. But it really is an unanswered question.
45 posted on 05/22/2007 10:08:32 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I posted the following picture when the "feathered" dinosaur was such a novel hit with the evo crowd. It looks as if my picture is getting some support.


46 posted on 05/22/2007 10:31:57 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: potlatch

Horsefeathersgate ping


47 posted on 05/22/2007 10:34:33 PM PDT by devolve ( _ignore_tax_the_illegal_alien_way?_ _Bush_selling_out_the_USA?_)
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To: devolve

HORSEFEATHERS;

[Oddly, the first recorded appearance of the word, in 1927, was in a different comic environment, a cartoon created by T A Dorgen: “The cashier’s department — Bah — Horsefeathers. He wouldn’t give you a ticket to see Halley’s Comet.”]

Lol, have fun. I’m heading to bed.


48 posted on 05/22/2007 10:39:18 PM PDT by potlatch (MIZARU_ooo_()_ooo_MIKAZARU_ooo_()_ooo_MAZARU_ooo_()_ooo_))
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To: Lijahsbubbe
You know electricity isn’t magic, the easter bunny isn’t real, and Jesus Christ doesn’t want his flock to be ignorant. So please, please, say you are not Catholic.
49 posted on 05/22/2007 11:01:58 PM PDT by Porterville (illegal gay mexicans are sneaking over our border and unplugging our brain dead women)
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To: jpsb
The mechanism is called adaption. But you will say some string of nonsense... which will lead to hooters waitresses and the sin associated with chicken wings.
50 posted on 05/22/2007 11:03:38 PM PDT by Porterville (illegal gay mexicans are sneaking over our border and unplugging our brain dead women)
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