Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Evolution Opponent Is in Line for Schools Post
The New York Times ^ | May 19, 2007 | CORNELIA DEAN

Posted on 05/23/2007 8:19:05 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 301-350351-400401-450451-474 last
To: ahayes; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
[.. I doubt I’ll ever believe in the Judeo-Christian God (my analysis of his morality as depicted in the Bible killed that) ..]

According to the bible, its not what you believe that counts, its who you Are that does..
"You MUST be born again:- Jesus..

451 posted on 06/07/2007 8:39:43 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies]

To: .30Carbine
Thank you oh so very much for sharing your testimony and for joining in this prayer!
452 posted on 06/07/2007 8:39:46 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 445 | View Replies]

To: .30Carbine
[.. It was helpful to me to highlight, mark, circle, and draw lines among every mention of each of those words in this particular chapter ..]

Love is sacrifice.. What you love you sacrifice for what you do not love you will not sacrifice for.. Its a thing of degrees.. You can love in degrees.. I once knew a teenager that loved his car.. Sacrifice is a kind of giving and can even be a kind of getting/receiving.. Sacrifice is not always simple.

453 posted on 06/07/2007 9:01:01 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 444 | View Replies]

To: ahayes; hosepipe; .30Carbine
Others have had equally strong emotional experiences in other religions. I don’t think that’s a good way of determining which religion is true.

There is a huge difference between emotions and revelations, but one must experience a direct Spiritual revelation to understand the difference.

Every Christian has received at least one, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But that direct spiritual revelation is like a seed in us, the tribulations of life can capture our attention and cause us to forget the experience. By your testimony, I suspect that seed is still in you. Perhaps one day you will remember the experience when it dawned in you that Jesus Christ is Lord?

I doubt I’ll ever believe in the Judeo-Christian God (my analysis of his morality as depicted in the Bible killed that), although I wouldn’t discount the possibility of becoming a deist of some flavor at some point.

When I read your testimony, I was led in the Spirit to the travails of Job. Job loved God and was as righteous as a man could be and yet was subjected to many harsh tribulations. Indeed, it was because of his special worth to God that Job was permitted to endure so much.

Job kept his faith and was honored for it – and yet, in the presence of – and in agreement with his friends and peers he began judging God. This went on in the book of Job all the way to chapter 38.

At that point, God had enough and addressed Job directly – only Job, He cared about Job. Job’s friends considered themselves pious, but God treats Job more like a friend.

To paraphrase, God angrily tells Job that because he cannot know what He knows that he is way out of line. When Job realizes what he has done, he repents of speaking words without knowledge. (Chapter 42)

After Job realized what he had done, God turns His attention to Job's friends as well and let them all know that their only hope was for Job to intercede for them, which he did. And then God restored to Job twice what he had before.

In sum, God not only listened to Job when his heart was right towards Him, but He also put Job in the position of responsibility and authority concerning the end of the very ones who led him into the error of judging God in the first place.

I was compelled in the Spirit to bring this, but what it means to you, only you can seek out. And I do pray you will ask God about it – He might answer you.

454 posted on 06/07/2007 9:38:04 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies]

To: DaveLoneRanger

This isn’t news to The NY Times. It’s an alert to their comrades get on the stick and ruin this guy’s life.

No, I admit to not reading the article. Don’t need to.


455 posted on 06/07/2007 9:44:06 AM PDT by subterfuge (Today, Tolerance =greatest virtue;Hypocrisy=worst character defect; Discrimination =worst atrocity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe
Love is sacrifice.. What you love you sacrifice for what you do not love you will not sacrifice for.. Its a thing of degrees.. You can love in degrees.. I once knew a teenager that loved his car.. Sacrifice is a kind of giving and can even be a kind of getting/receiving.. Sacrifice is not always simple.

Thank you, hosepipe my FRiend! I see parallels between the love/sacrifice and knowing/being/doing of the teachings of the Holy Spirit in John 14 as being intimately related to the teachings of the Holy Spirit in Exodus 20 (vs. 1-6, The Message), specifically:

God spoke all these words: I am God, your God,
who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of a life of slavery.

No other gods, only me.

No carved gods of any size, shape, or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am God, your God, and I'm a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me.

But I'm unswervingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments.

That sort of "sacrifice" is not sacrifice at all, is it? To me it is not. To me it is like the happy bride who "sacrifices" every other "lover" for the the one true love that loves her best. What sacrifice?! (: He found me on the auction block and purchased me with His precious blood - the sacrifice was all His. Let my glorious freedom, wedded to Him, this New Life, put on display for all my thanksgiving and joy in "giving up" all loves, other so-called intimacies, but His, amen! Yes indeed, my relationship to this Glorious God is very much like human marriage - that sacred covenant and glorious "sacrifice"! But I am not talking about human marriage, physical and touchable; I'm talking only about the Sacred Spiritual Truth of God Almighty, amen. (As you know and often tell, hosepipe, metaphors are like good cookies! :)

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8

"I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud
And your sins like a heavy mist
Return to Me, for I have redeemed you."
Isaiah 44:22

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:13-14

You call out to God for help and he helps—he's a good Father that way. But don't forget, he's also a responsible Father, and won't let you get by with sloppy living. Your life is a journey you must travel with a deep consciousness of God. It cost God plenty to get you out of that dead-end, empty-headed life you grew up in. He paid with Christ's sacred blood, you know. He died like an unblemished, sacrificial lamb. And this was no afterthought. Even though it has only lately—at the end of the ages—become public knowledge, God always knew he was going to do this for you. It's because of this sacrificed Messiah, whom God then raised from the dead and glorified, that you trust God, that you know you have a future in God.
1 Peter 1:17-19

To the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever! Amen!
Romans 16:27

456 posted on 06/08/2007 2:55:30 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Sacrifice is not always simple...but let it always be glorious, holy, and good, amen.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 453 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; ahayes
You are positively lovely, Alamo-Girl. Thank you, and bump that (I'm printing it out)! ahayes, I have as great a hope for you coming out into the wide open green pastures of God’s Love as A-G does, and I have kept you in prayer.
457 posted on 06/08/2007 3:00:07 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Sacrifice is not always simple...but let it always be glorious, holy, and good, amen.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 454 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you darling one. Your love is cool water to me, refreshment, even if your teachings rise above my head at times and I have to exert my feeble muscles to rise in them. Your presence in my life is a great, large, intricate gift that I love to keep unwrapping. Your words express the fact that you are indeed a mentor to me: It’s supposed to strain me as I follow you, and just as you are doing, a mentor encourages as well as challenges along the upward-going paths of knowledge, amen.
458 posted on 06/08/2007 3:43:15 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Sacrifice is not always simple...but let it always be glorious, holy, and good, amen.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 449 | View Replies]

To: .30Carbine; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; Heretic; satan
Indeed, giving of yourself is/can be a sacrifice, and receiving of others is/can be a sacrifice too.. If you have much to give the sacrifice is less dear.. The more you need to receive from others the more dear is others sacrifice..

Sonnets could be written about "sacrifice" the way they are written about "love".. For love is sacrifice.. but sacrifice is greater than love.. A rarely studied subject sacrifice..

Maybe in some future time "Yarns of Sacrifice" might be "shared".. An engram of sacrifice we received from the God of Sacrifice, I think.. When men sacrifice(for most anything) their worth is lifted not drained.. The ability to sacrifice is a kind of wealth.. Sacrifice in that way is an investment..

WHAT is your sacrifice portfolio?.. Would be a good question.. Because no doubt that is what your vested in.. Your/and my Sacrifice Portfolio is real and present and probably eternal.. For All sacrifice to/for something, daily..

Could be why the God of Isreal(God of Sacrifice) set-up a government for them based on sacrifice.. both theirs and his.. When they sacrificed the gov't worked when they didn't, it didn't.. A gov't of takers is corrupt..

Love is barely an attribute of sacrifice a dividend of a Sacrifice Portfolio.. I was born on the planet with nothing (naked and ignorant) and thankfully I'm pretty much fully invested to date.. Does that make me wealthy?..

459 posted on 06/08/2007 5:24:34 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 456 | View Replies]

To: .30Carbine
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ - but truly, if you see anything at all in me which is good or wise, it is not me but Christ in me. He is our mentor and leads us both (Romans 8, I Cor 2).

To God be the glory!

460 posted on 06/08/2007 9:37:30 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 458 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe; .30Carbine; betty boop
Thank you so very much for including me in this sidebar, dear brother and sister in Christ!

When hosepipe talks of sacrifice and love being interchangeable, I do not understand the word "sacrifice" to mean oblations which God specifically rejects in Isaiah 1 but rather to a surrendering of one’s life, which is a "sacrifice" He honors (also Isaiah 1.)

Christ mentions this twice, i.e. that God will have mercy and not sacrifice (Matt 9 and Matt 12) And at Gethsemane, Christ surrenders Himself to the will of the Father. Psalms 37 also speaks of this as do many others. Moreover, it is “summed up” in the description of Who Christ “is” here (emphasis mine):

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

There is no bright line between the Father and Son. The Father’s will is Son's will. They are one, as we are one in Christ (John 17).

We surrender to Him - His Name, His Will, His Kingdom - whenever we pray the Lord’s Prayer willfully meaning every word we are saying.

That is my understanding of hosepipe’s use of the word “sacrifice.”

461 posted on 06/08/2007 10:10:24 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 459 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
[.. That is my understanding of hosepipe’s use of the word “sacrifice.” ..]

True... Sacrifice should be studied in much more depth.. For the sacrifice of life, time, money, rights, privledge, authority, position, responsibility, food, water, clothing, bait, children, power, fuel, honor, peace, solitude, and a thousand other things.. they all speak of love.. For love is a nebulous word that implies certain specific sacrifice(s)..

The word love is a gross grunting about delicate and complex sacrificial acts.. that cannot be appreciated in one measly word.. I'm not sure but there could be a place for a Sacrificologist.. No sacrifice, No love.. But I've seen a so-called love with no sacrifice..

462 posted on 06/08/2007 10:45:08 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 461 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe
Thank you so much for your reply, dear hosepipe! I noticed "bait" in the list... LOL!

But I've seen a so-called love with no sacrifice..

That immediately brought the following passage in my spirit:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. - Matt 15:8


463 posted on 06/08/2007 11:42:31 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 462 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Some may think I refer to my own sacrifice.. I do not..
My experience of sacrifice is the sacrifice of others for me..

What a humbling experience it is when the Lord highlights or enlightens others sacrifice for you.. on many levels in many ways.. One day many will be amazed at how many people sacrificed in multifarious ways for them.. We are very cognizant of our own sacrifices and even perceived sacrifices.. BUT being sensitive to others sacrifice for us is not often sought..

Even more amazing is most sacrifice others make (for us) is not even known.. by us or anybody else.. but is done in secret.. The epiphany of sacrifice is a relevation.. God is a God of Sacrifice....... his own...

464 posted on 06/08/2007 12:34:03 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 463 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe; .30Carbine
The epiphany of sacrifice is a relevation.. God is a God of Sacrifice....... his own...

Indeed. In the polar opposite of Islam's "god" who demands his followers die for his pleasure --- our God died on the cross to redeem us.

465 posted on 06/08/2007 12:49:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 464 | View Replies]

To: ahayes

[I doubt I’ll ever believe in the Judeo-Christian God (my analysis of his morality as depicted in the Bible killed that), although I wouldn’t discount the possibility of becoming a deist of some flavor at some point.]

Can I ask how you came to the conclusion God isn’t moral? Did you use a human infused moral measuring rod to measure His morality? Or did you use a completely objective measure based on an absolute morality that an absolutely moral God could use to justly judge His creation?


466 posted on 06/08/2007 8:10:36 PM PDT by CottShop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe

Thank you both for your beautiful musings. I’ve prayed and prayed for something to contribute to the discussion, but all I have are tears (they don’t translate well on a keyboard).


467 posted on 06/09/2007 2:28:58 AM PDT by .30Carbine (Sacrifice is not always simple...but let it always be glorious, holy, and good, amen.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 465 | View Replies]

To: .30Carbine
I thank God for you, dear sister in Christ!
468 posted on 06/09/2007 9:43:36 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 467 | View Replies]

To: CottShop

My actual starting point was a pretty simple one, and one which I hope is not controversial:

Killing babies is wrong.


469 posted on 06/10/2007 6:27:42 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 466 | View Replies]

To: ahayes
I have to assume you’re talking about God ordering Israel to annihilate men women and children when they went into Caanan, or perhaps the orders to kill the Amalekites, but I guess your objection can apply to any such orders throughout His word so my response will apply to the basic objection-

This will be fairly long as explaining God's Sovereignty is not an easy undertaking, I apologize in advance, but hope you will read through it as there are some very important points to make regarding Gods absolute morality. Your objection is an important one, and a quite common that I see repeatedly, and not unwarrentedly, brought up- one that needs addressing- I'll bold the important points

No, disobeying God is wrong- something we seem to excuse in ourselves when we judge God Ill explain further. You are technically correct in stating that murdering babies is wrong- which will bring me to one of my points below

I had cautioned that when judging God; we should understand that we often judge using sentimental driven morality guidelines as opposed to using God’s absolute Holy morality, and we tend not to fully understand His Sovereignty (sp?)

First off: And this is a VERY important point- perhaps the most important point Ill make- God is omniscient He is all knowing, and as such, He knows past present and future, and He ALONE is the judge of human hearts and would know every future decision of these innocent babies that you think He murdered in cold blood. His knowledge is complete, and He is not crippled by not knowing the future. What we do when we accuse God of killing innocent babies is to stand with our arms crossed, our noses in the air, and with an air of superiority, and we stand in judgment of The All Knowing God as though our fallible knowledge and sense of subjective morality were superior to His. We claim God judged innocent babies’ and condemned them to death, claiming that the babies could have turned from their wicked ways (their eventual wicked ways) IF circumstances were to be different, and the people of Canaan were just given a chance to change later on. We assert that innocent babies would turn out wicked simply bbecause of the society in which they would grow up in- However, God, knowing all things, knew that the babies hearts would NOT change no matter the circumstances in which they might be brought up in. Their heritage would have been a very powerful incentive and ‘self justifying excuse’ to continue their wickedness, even taking revenge on God’s people later. As I will mention below, many women and children fled and escaped before Israel carried out God's judgment and command, and perhaps those that escaped- the babies, would later have a change of heart which God would have known- the mothers who fled obviously were not so consumed by evil that they would die for their vile gods by fighting God's people, so perhaps they were not as far gone as those that stayed, and God allowed them to escape for His own purposes, knowing the future. We must be careful when judging God's because we do not have the privilege of being all knowing. The babies that were present when the Israelites attacked were most assuredly prejudged by God who knew their future, and found guilty and uneedemedly evil.

Secondly: Israel was at war with the Canaanites, and obviously, not killing every man woman and child would result in the children growing up and taking their revenge on God's nation of Israel.

Thirdly: Some Scholars have concluded that The Canaanites were the seed of unholy unions between demons and humans (I’ll not get into this point much as I’m not well versed in this issue- but if this truly were the case, and some believe it was, then God have every right to annihilate every last man woman and child)

Fourth point: The Canaanites were a vile nation that worshiped despicable man invented gods that demanded human sacrifices- namely babies. The Canaanites were burning their own children alive as sacrifices to their gods, and they were engaging in despicable acts and their hearts were evil and they hated God’s people with a passion. As mentioned before, God alone knows every person’s hearts and desires, and would have known that Canaanite babies would grow up to be just like their parents- God hating, Jew hating people. the people inhabiting Canaan were physically diseased and morally corrupt and unclean, living a life of complete debauchery with no intentions of ever giving it up.

God gave wicked nations plenty of time to repent and turn from their ways. The people were not unaware of God’s patience or pleadings, they simply chose not to submit themselves to God and decided evil was more desirable. They would not ever accept God’s righteousness. The Amalekites were Israel’s eternal foe and always would be- their evil was complete, unwavering, and their hearts were bent on annihilating Israel whenever they could. The Amalekite’s and Canaanites were completely wicked, completely treacherous nations, and because Israel did not completely obey God, Israel was plagued by vicious attacks, murdering hte feebled and young when attacking the hindquarters- those who lagged behind, of the marching Jews form many years following their disobedience.

God didn’t just one day up and command Israel to attack innocent people who had no dog in the fight- The Amalekites had been Israel’s sworn enemy for many years, and they were dedicated to annihilating Israel. Israel fought back, on God’s command, as a matter of life and death survival. Ameleak was the leading source of worldly evil- they weren’t the ‘innocent victims’ that many people try to make them out to be in an effort to portray God as some bloodthirsty immoral God who slaughtered innocent children and women. They were a literal instrument of Satan himself!

This is an important point and one you may not be aware of- Many women and children fled before Israel attacked. Israel gave their enemy the opportunity to surrender and avoid being killed, however, the nation of Amelak of course, being wicked, refused to surrender. From a source: “Besides, under the rules of conduct God had given to the Israelites, whenever they went into an enemy city they were to first make the people an offer of peace. [Deut. 20:10:10-13] The people had a choice: they could accept that offer, in which case they wouldn’t be killed, or they could reject the offer at their own peril. That’s appropriate and fair.”

The women and children who chose to flee were of course spared, but those women who chose to stay and assist their warriors were those who willingly kept their children in the line of fire. God did not order Israel to chase down the fleeing women and children and kill them, He commanded that Israel attack the Amelekites and kill all who remained.

A fifth point: The potter can do with His vessel anything He likes for any reason. We are the clay, He is the Potter. God’s Sovereignty is a difficult subject, but one well worth reading about. A fella by the name of Pink, and old time writer, tackled this issue about God’s Sovereignty about as well as anyone could. His book I’m pretty sure was called “The Sovereignty of God” Google that with the word pink, and I believe you’ll find his work online.

God wanted His people to be absolutely holy, and God demanded that any evil be purged from their lands. Your argument is that babies can’t be evil is not an invalid argument, however as shown above, there would have been severe consequences for not obeying God and purging hte land of an entire evil people. Israel of course did not fully obey God, and we see the results today of their disobedience with all the trouble Israel is having with the direct descendent's of Canaan.

Satan had the people of Canaan under his near complete control, and hte people willingly and full-heartedly submitted themselves to him through the worship of false gods. God cursed Caana for disobeying Him willingly, and for turning themselves completely and vilely over to despicable and violent false gods.

Again, God gave His enemies plenty of time to repent, plenty of time to turn from evil, and He gave an unrighteous people every opportunity to save themselves. Even in the issue of Sodom and Gomorrah, God was quick to stop their destruction if just 1 person were to be found to be righteous- none were found- not even one! God doesn’t desire destroying people, He is quick to mercy, longsuffering and patient- He gives more than ample warning that He will punish those who directly, and VERY actively oppose Him, yet people simply choose evil over good, and are to blame for their own actions and for the righteous judgment of God that results.

I’m sure you have plenty of other objections that keep you from turning to God, and I’m not deriding them, and your objections are reasonable objections I’m sure, however, they are objections that fail to see through the eyes of a completely righteous God. The objections are based on your own subjective bird’s eye view of what you consider to be moral. Our guidelines of morality are sympathy based while God’s are righteously based and absolute, and when examined closely are just and pure. While sympathy based fallible morality is needed in a world filled with fallible people, it simply differs from the absolute morality of righteousness, and we can’t see the righteousness because we are blinded by our sympathies. Sympathies are not bad per se, when dealing with our fellow man, and they should be employed in some cases where the law is considered however, in so employing sympathies, we in effect dull the offenders that we judge to the absolute righteousness of God, and that is NOT a good thing in the end. It may be the most ‘comfortable’ thing, the one that gives a perpetrator the least amount of discomfort in the short term, but it is NOT the BEST thing for the perpetrator who will in the end be judged by a righteous judge whos absolute morality will judge absolutely.

You perhaps view the incident in a very narrow humanist viewpoint that focuses on the immediate actions that took place, not taking into account that there was a greater good that involved not only Israel, but the rest of the world, back then, and even now and into the future. The Amelekites were a completely evil people- their evil remains to this day, and is the cause of mind staggering atrocities that have been far worse than the singular and immediate event of judgment when Israel partially carried out God’s command. The Amelkites were so immersed, so completely hardened against God, that they were irredeemably evil. The greater good, not only for the immediate good of Israel, but for the future as well, was to annihilate pure evil. God knowing the future of those babies that we think were innocent, knew that their hearts too would be irredeemably evil, and that is exactly what we see today because Israel did not carry out God’s command fully. We’re not talking just the Amelekites being ‘slightly bad, a bit bad, or even somewhat bad, we’re talking completely evil, and completely diametrically opposed to God’s righteousness.

470 posted on 06/10/2007 11:36:03 AM PDT by CottShop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 469 | View Replies]

To: CottShop
Phooey phooey phooey. Baloney.

You are technically correct in stating that murdering babies is wrong- which will bring me to one of my points below

Well thank goodness we agree on this point, although I have to say your objection to it must be pretty feeble if you can excuse genocide.

What we do when we accuse God of killing innocent babies is to stand with our arms crossed, our noses in the air, and with an air of superiority, and we stand in judgment of The All Knowing God as though our fallible knowledge and sense of subjective morality were superior to His.

Frankly, I think mine is.

We claim God judged innocent babies’ and condemned them to death, claiming that the babies could have turned from their wicked ways (their eventual wicked ways) IF circumstances were to be different, and the people of Canaan were just given a chance to change later on. We assert that innocent babies would turn out wicked simply bbecause of the society in which they would grow up in- However, God, knowing all things, knew that the babies hearts would NOT change no matter the circumstances in which they might be brought up in.

I will unapologetically state that is BS. An infant cannot be so irreparably programmed by his culture that it is necessary to proactively kill him to prevent future crimes. (And do you suppose if these babies had been adopted by their conquerors they would have grown up to be evil just because their mommy was a heathen?) Think before you try to take this line--you would seem to think that the lives of babies from certain families are worth less than others. It is absolutely evil to kill a baby from an affluent, cultured white family because he is most likely to be a productive member of society. On the other hand, it's probably not quite so bad to kill a crack baby born to a poor black woman and raised by a violent ex-con who is not his father, because he's more likely to turn into a juvenile delinquent. (Think of the number of crimes we could prevent if we just killed all rowdy pre-teen boys!) You can't use this excuse because it diminishes the value of human beings in certain environments, plus what might have been immediately turns into what never will be with the baby's death, and then all you've got to show for it is a dead baby.

Secondly: Israel was at war with the Canaanites, and obviously, not killing every man woman and child would result in the children growing up and taking their revenge on God's nation of Israel.

While pragmatic, this is not a moral justification.

Thirdly: Some Scholars have concluded that The Canaanites were the seed of unholy unions between demons and humans

I grew up in a fundamentalist church and they weren't even wack enough to believe this.

Fourth point: The Canaanites were a vile nation that worshiped despicable man invented gods that demanded human sacrifices- namely babies.

I see, the obvious conclusion is to kill their babies for them! Because it's evil if they do, but it's good if we do!

The women and children who chose to flee were of course spared, but those women who chose to stay and assist their warriors were those who willingly kept their children in the line of fire.

So now we're killing babies for being too foolish to choose to flee.

I'll also point out that women and children in these cultures did not have much latitude to make any choices. The choices were made by the men. If the men said to run, they'd run. If the men said to stay put, they'd stay put. These women who were killed were helpless noncombatants.

And let's not forget the city of Ai, where they lured the army away from the city into an ambush and then sneaked into the unprotected city behind the army and killed everyone there and burned it to the ground. Do you suppose the women and children left in the city would have chosen to flee if they could while the army butchered their husbands? But they were not given the chance. (Joshua 8:14-28)

When the king of Ai saw this, he and all the men of the city hurried out early in the morning to meet Israel in battle at a certain place overlooking the Arabah. But he did not know that an ambush had been set against him behind the city. Joshua and all Israel let themselves be driven back before them, and they fled toward the desert. All the men of Ai were called to pursue them, and they pursued Joshua and were lured away from the city. Not a man remained in Ai or Bethel who did not go after Israel. They left the city open and went in pursuit of Israel.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Hold out toward Ai the javelin that is in your hand, for into your hand I will deliver the city." So Joshua held out his javelin toward Ai. As soon as he did this, the men in the ambush rose quickly from their position and rushed forward. They entered the city and captured it and quickly set it on fire.

The men of Ai looked back and saw the smoke of the city rising against the sky, but they had no chance to escape in any direction, for the Israelites who had been fleeing toward the desert had turned back against their pursuers. For when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that smoke was going up from the city, they turned around and attacked the men of Ai. The men of the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives. But they took the king of Ai alive and brought him to Joshua. When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it. Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai. But Israel did carry off for themselves the livestock and plunder of this city, as the LORD had instructed Joshua.

So Joshua burned Ai and made it a permanent heap of ruins, a desolate place to this day.

A fifth point: The potter can do with His vessel anything He likes for any reason.

Interestingly God did not choose to do his dirty work himself here. He told humans to do it for him. Would you take a baby and bash his brains out if God told you to do so? I had to think about this, and decided long ago that I would not. Let God swallow my house in a bottomless pit, but I would not kill an innocent for him.

All I've seen are a series of rationalizations and excuses. The murder of babies and children is at its heart inexcusable, and you know it.

This, however, is not the thinking that led me to decide God does not exist. It was the starting point, but what did it was my conclusions on the nature of morality.

There are two lines to take with this:

  1. Good and evil are unchanging and based in the unchanging nature of God. (Absolute morality)
  2. Good and evil depend on God's will in each situation. (Relative morality)

You have set yourself firmly on the second in this list, as you say God has the right to do whatever he likes with any of us, and that God can order us to set aside moral laws ("Thou shalt not murder.") at his whim.

I, on the other hand, always considered the first to be true, that morality is based upon God's unchanging character. I was troubled by the genocide in the Old Testament, but I accepted others' rationalizations and thought I would work it out in time.

I did not.

When I looked at the situation more closely I saw that God's morality is not as I had thought--unchanging and based on his holy character. Rather, all sorts of things seemed to be good or evil depending on the circumstances. It made me wonder why we get so riled up about people doing evil things (killing babies, committing incest, etc.) if they're really evil just because God says so at the time.

Consider, if murder is wrong because God's unchanging holiness places incredible value on human life, then murdering a person is a sin against that person (being endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable rights) as well as against God. If murder is good at some times and evil at others, then murder is wrong because it is a sin against God and cannot really be said to be a sin against the other person (they are not endowed with inalienable rights, and are clay to be used by the Potter according to his whim).

Therefore, if infanticide is one of these things that is sometimes wrong and sometimes right, it makes no sense to be morally outraged on behalf of the baby when we find another instance of someone killing an infant. Rather, we should be outraged that they did something that is currently on God's no-no list.

Basing morality off of God's changing will then renders human rights a fictional construct. Which helps explain why I've had Christians tell me that humans have no rights!

Then there is the additional problem of God's true character. With unchanging morality we have a sort of covenant with God--he will never change and will never lie. With the God of whimsy we can't have that certainty--he is the Potter and we are the clay and he can treat us however he likes and have other humans treat us however he likes and that will automatically be Good (not because it looks good, just because he says it is). Or maybe he'll pull a fast one on those who he sends against us just for kicks. Joshua and his army got a free pass on genocide because they were sent in judgment by God. However, other peoples whom he sent in judgment against their descendants were then punished for doing God's will ("I sent you to punish my favored race and you did it. How dare you!"). Bummer.

I've said before that considering morality as based upon God's will in various situations leads to a problem in which God's character is completely unknowable. We know God is holy because he says he is, not because he looks holy to us. We know God is good because he says he is, not because he looks good to us. This is the point when you will step in and say God is far beyond us, he is incomprehensible, etc. I'd say when the only way you know your God is good is because he tells you so and when what he does looks more like evil, you need to sit down and do a lot of thinking.

Which is what I did. I was unable to ignore these parts of the Bible and take those which say that morality is absolute because my upbringing taught me that the entire Bible was inspired and infallible, so I couldn't conclude (as others have) that the Bible was written by humans and contains some misrepresentations of God that he for some reason couldn't correct. I couldn't take the whole and decide morality is relative and based on God's changing will because that version of God is amoral and unworthy of worship in my eyes. My final conclusion is that the Bible is self-contradictory because it was written by humans, and that the Judeo-Christian God does not exist.

471 posted on 06/11/2007 7:34:13 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 470 | View Replies]

To: ahayes

[I will unapologetically state that is BS. An infant cannot be so irreparably programmed by his culture that it is necessary to proactively kill him to prevent future crimes. (And do you suppose if these babies had been adopted by their conquerors they would have grown up to be evil just because their mommy was a heathen?)]

Again, I have to point out the fact that you are ignoring God’s foreknowledge and creating smokescreens to cover up what you deep down know to be true but don’t want to admit (We all do this- just with different issues than this one- so I’m not singling you out or asserting that I am any better) And yes- I do suppsoe that babies adopted would grow up to take their revenge— the whole palestinian/Israel issue proves that out. My response to the baby issue will be necessarily blunt and come across as harsh, but it is key to my argument, and it is I admit right here, one that was simliar to ones that I had trouble with, but came to realize, one that I used as a veneer excuse to avoid the real issue- namely, that I didn’t believe God had the right to demand that I bow my knee to Him. I tried to justify my refusal to admit His Lorship by making arguments that were not entirely honest as well. I’m not stating that you are being intentionally dishonest, but rather that you are not being entirely honest with yourself, and the result is an argument that attempts to assign a not so entirely honest accusation against God.

[It is absolutely evil to kill a baby from an affluent, cultured white family because he is most likely to be a productive member of society.]

You are comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to justify your accusation that God killed innocent babies- I don’t care what culture is evil- evil is evil- The Canaanites were pure evil- They had been murderously attacking Israel for a very long time- They were absolutely opposed to Israel and to God, and they were driven by pure evil to try to kill off God’s people because God’s people were a reminder of their own sin against God. I wouldn’t care if the Canaanites were anglo-saxon English who were evil- you’re trying to make this out to be a race issue?

[On the other hand, it’s probably not quite so bad to kill a crack baby born to a poor black woman and raised by a violent ex-con who is not his father, because he’s more likely to turn into a juvenile delinquent.]

Oh come on- at least come up with relevent and honest objections to God- God had foreknowledge that you and I do NOT have. You and I can NOT determine how ANY baby will turn out in life, and we can NOT make descisions based simply on what their parents did because we simply do NOT know whether the black crack-born child is irredemably evil or not- Gofd however does, and this is absolutely key to this argument- AND there is another issue you are overlooking- the black comunity isn’t, as a whole, going around persecuting an entire nation, Attacking God’s people in hopes of annihilating them, comitting crimes against humanity, and revelling in their evil. You are taking isolated issues and trying to assert that present day incidents being comitted by individuals within a society should be compared with an entire population of people such as the Amelekites who were entirely evil, and wholly comitted to murdering God’s people

[While pragmatic, this is not a moral justification.]

Nope- it is RIGHTEOUS JUSTIFICATION by a Soveriegn God

[I grew up in a fundamentalist church and they weren’t even wack enough to believe this.]

Well if you grew up in fundamentalist church, then you no doubt heard that Fallen Angels mated with women as part of Satan’s attempt to pervert the line of Christ so that Christ couldn’t be born a perfect sinless person. There is some debate about this, the passage I’m referring to talks about the “Son’s of God” I beleive are the key words (Because God created the angels). Satan tried several plans to pervert and prevent the line of Christ from comming to fruition, and some believe that these ‘Demon seed/People’ (If true- there is some dispute) was an attempt. King David, before he became King, as you know, fought Goliath- Goliath is thought by some to be the Nephilim (I think is the term for demon/men) (and just for the record, Goliath wasn’t the only giant around at hte time, there were whole clans of giants).

As I said, I’m not real versed in this, but I do know a bit abotu the belief, but I won’t take a stand one way or the other- just letting you know that there is the belief that Amelek was of this line of demon seed.

[So now we’re killing babies for being too foolish to choose to flee.]

I guesx you missed the point- God’s foreknowledge, and quickening of the spirit, was at work in the mother’s hearts in those women who had an iota of spiritual hope, and God, being omniscient, would have known which chiuldren had an iota of hope as well. You make it seem as though God wouldn’t have known which babies would turn from wickedness, and just killed them willy nilly and without discrimination.

[I’ll also point out that women and children in these cultures did not have much latitude to make any choices.]

Bzzzt wrong- that is a common misconception and quite frankly a false accusation levelled at Christian in an attempt to make us look like wife-beating hypocrites. The women were revered, and had much more say than you claim and were equal in the home when it came to making wise descisions- they were NOT the helpless barefoot kitchen bound slaves some try to make them out to be

[Let God swallow my house in a bottomless pit, but I would not kill an innocent for him.]

Kill an innocent? You know they were ‘innocent’ how? You saw into their hearts how?

[You have set yourself firmly on the second in this list, as you say God has the right to do whatever he likes with any of us, and that God can order us to set aside moral laws (”Thou shalt not murder.”) at his whim.]

Nope- God’s morality is absolute- your morality is relative. God judges the heart- God knows the future- and you can NOT sit here and claim that ‘some poor innocent baby was murdered by God” When you do NOT know either the babies future heart conditions or their future descisions. If you feel God murdered ‘innocent’ babies, then prove that they were going to be innocent in the future- otherwise, you’re asserting you know more than God who knows who will and who will not be irredemably evil.

When God looked upon Sodom and Ghomorah- He saw NO good- that included women and children- NONE- not one righteous person. God saw that Satan had a complete hold on the city- and that included the infants. The people of that city had sold their souls to Satan and Satan demanded EVERYTHING- including hteir children’s souls.

To stand there and state that there were ‘innocent children’ who were killed is to call God a liar, and to arrogantly set yourself up as more knowing than an all knowing God who saw NO GOOD - NO RIGHTEOUSNESS- none! Not even babies.

Yuo get mad at God, but apparently brush aside Satan’s involvement in all this as though He were not to blame or any of it? Incredible. You also brush aside the people’s involvement and willing, unforced soul selling to the evil one, and you hold God cuplible for the results (their deaths) for the actiosn that were squarely on the shoulders of those who willingly and whole-heartedly opposed God, and murdered His epople in seething hatred.

These people you are excusing were not some poor Joe Shmoes who were slightly bad,- they were PURELY EVIL folks, and they were not killing God’s people because God’s people had done anyhtign wrong to them- they were murdering God’s people just because God had chosen the Jews and not them. It was pure hatred on their parts- yet incredibly, you excuse their evil, and turn around and call a righteopus and Soveriegn God guilty of judging the evil.

You’ve got you mind set on judging God guilty, and nothing will change your mind I’m sure. You’re convinced that God couldn’t see into the future of those babies you believe were innocent. You are convinced that an entirely evil nation- a nation bent on annihilating God’s people in cold blood, were somehow innocent and shouldn’t have been judged by God. You say you beleive in Absolute morality, yet, when absolute morality is played out, you condemn the absolutely moral God for carrying out His judgement on those who sold their souls to the evil one. You are stating that you, a person with limitted foreknowledge, know better than God what babies whos souls were the property of Satan due to their parents actions, know better than God what those babies would turn out to be later in life.

You attempt to dismiss God’s right to omniscience and foreknowledge by ignoring man’s cuplability in the whole situation, and also by ignoring that God is all knowing, and by stating that those who point that out to you are simply trying to excuse what you see as an attrocity. The fact is Ahayes, you don’t deny there is a God because God’s morality is subjective- You reject the existence of God because He carries out His absolutely righteous, absolute morality, and people who vehemently rejected Him, and who were steeeped in evil, got exactly what they were warned repeatedly for decades that they would get- a judgement based on absolute morality. These were not ‘essentually good’ people- they were people who sold their souls to the Evil one- people who were absolutely immoral- not just a few ‘innocent flings here and there’- they were completely immoral, and who knew full well the consequences of their actions because of ample warnings, and who decided they loved the evil one more than God Hismelf.

You can make all the excuses you like for them, ignore their evil all you like, and assert that you know better than God which babies might not have been irredemably evil- but in so doing, you call God- your creator, a liar- You can alos hold up self righteousness as your ‘shield’ against God and His people, and pretend that if you do end up in the pit, that you didn’t get there because of anythign bad on your part because, after all, you were ‘just trying to be moral, but the big bad absolute moral God (who you claim turns out to be subjectively moral based on conditions) was so evil that He condemned you to the pit for no reason other than He was really evil- sending an innocent, moral person to hte pit unjustly.

I’m sorry this sounds haRSH- I’m not meaning it to sound sarcastic or anything,- but being harsh, it probably does- that’s not my intention- I’m simply calling you out for dancing around the whole truth of what you feel. Yuo feel that should you end up in the pit, that you’ll have goen there innocently and unjustly.

You have correctly stated/insinuated that You don’t know how those babies would have turned out in life, and that I don’t know how they would have turned out in life, but I tell you the absolute truth right flat out, that god DID know- and the truth of the matter is that you question His authority and right in judging those He commanded to killed. And Ahayes, I’m cutting right to the crux of the whole honest truth of the matter here, and stating right flat out that you are falling victim to a sense of self-righteous justification for your denying God His rightful Godship. That is not a condemnation of you on my part, because I was exactly where you are right now at one time- I looked for any excuse I could to keep from bowing my kneee to God. My pride would not allow me to do that.

Unjustly Calling God an unjust baby murderer, and attempting to justify your accusation by asserting that some of those babies ‘might have grown to be ‘good people’ and thusly were murdered unjustly’, while seemingly a strong point in your mind, is, to put it bluntly, based on nothing more than self pride. You are not making your argument with me, you are making it with God, and you are telling God, your creator, the Righteous God of Absolute morality, that He had no right to murder babies. Yuo are telling Him, that He couldn’t possibly have seen the future of those babies, and that His judgement was unjust, and that the evil people who sold their souls to the evil one who is adamantly opposed to God with all his being, were infact, relatively good people who were unjustly murdered on the command of God. That is the whole raw, uncensored foundation of your argument to God.

Don’t be deceived Ahayes, Your sense of self-righteousness (and I know the term self-righteous has taken on a negative connotation, but I don’t mean it as a hypocritical term, but one that describes our sense of ‘ok-ness’ that we all have) is a cover for the more primitive sin of pride that we are all born with. Our pride tells God He has no right demanding that we be Holy, and that we submit our lives to Him. We use all kinds of self-justifying excuses to avoid having to admit that God is absolutely moral, and judges us absolutely based on His morality which is absolutely righteous, and to submit to God. We know deep down that God judged thsoe people based on His omniscient wisdom, but we try to come up with cover arguments to hide the fact that God’s absolute morality is harsh, but it is completely our OWN fault if we are judged. Yuor rationalization that claims a baby or two ‘might have grown to be ok’ is simply a denial of God’s omniscient knowledge and judgement. The reason that you deny what you know to be true, deep down, is that it’s too painful bow the head to anyone- including God. It is simply too much a blow to our pride to bow that knee and admit that God is Lord. Again, I’m not condemning you- I went through this too- I fought it fiercely- it’s NEVER easy being broken.

I’m going to lay something on you that you might not have thought about before. When Abraham asked God to spare Sodom and Ghomorah if one righteous person could be found, he was in essence, like you, questioning God’s foreknowledge and omniscience as well (there really is nothing new under the sun- all our objections that we might think are unique and brilliant objections, were in reality, held by others before us), and I imagine Abraham made the very same argument as you, that babies shouldn’t be judged because they ‘might grow to be ok people”. It is my beleif that God took Abraham through the city, showing him each and every person- including babies, and giving Abraham a glimps of each person’s present and future heart’s condition- and NONE were found to be righteous- not one.

I know htis hasn’t been easy to read Ahayes, and I didn’t mean to write any of it as my own personal condemnation, I wrote what I did because the truth- the real truth behind al lthe smokescreens, is a hard- cold reality that we all hate to face but needs to be point blank said. It would be fantastic to be able to see everyone’;s heart condition both present and future, and to be able to CORRECTLY judge whether God’s judgements have been just or not (And I am 100% certain we’d find they were if we had this pecieal privelege as I beleive Abraham was given), but the fact is that we don’t, and we HAVE to either take it on faith that an infallible, wholly Righteous, wholly Moral God judged righteously, and to read and understand that the evil the people were committing, those who were judged, was a pure evil, an all consuming evil, and not just ‘bad character traits’ that really weren’t ‘all that bad’.

Rigth now, you want for their to be just one ‘innocent person’ who was condemned to die, because that would then lift the difficult responsibility of yours, (and everyone else for that matter) to kneel before God and confess that He is God and you servant, but I tell you the truth, it is far far better to come to that point while alive, then when standing before God who will judge us, not on the smokescreens we’ve erected for ourselves, but on the very foundational sin of denying God His rightful place in our lives..


472 posted on 06/11/2007 12:16:48 PM PDT by CottShop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 471 | View Replies]

To: CottShop
Baloney. As I said, God's supposed foreknowledge doesn't matter because as soon as you kill that baby it's supposed future is gone, and all you have is a dead baby who never hurt a soul.

Well if you grew up in fundamentalist church, then you no doubt heard that Fallen Angels mated with women as part of Satan’s attempt to pervert the line of Christ so that Christ couldn’t be born a perfect sinless person. There is some debate about this,

Indeed there is. It's a whole doctrine built up out of one unclear verse.

Bzzzt wrong- that is a common misconception and quite frankly a false accusation levelled at Christian in an attempt to make us look like wife-beating hypocrites. The women were revered, and had much more say than you claim and were equal in the home when it came to making wise descisions- they were NOT the helpless barefoot kitchen bound slaves some try to make them out to be

We're talking about the Godless heathens here, you're saying they revered women and gave them equal rights?

And speaking of the Hebrews, they didn't have such a good track record in equal rights. If a woman made a vow without her husband or father's knowledge he could overrule it and void it because she was not capable of making her own decisions. And when they went to war, a man could take an attractive woman from among the POWs and marry her against her will. Really civil.

To stand there and state that there were ‘innocent children’ who were killed is to call God a liar, and to arrogantly set yourself up as more knowing than an all knowing God who saw NO GOOD - NO RIGHTEOUSNESS- none! Not even babies.

Yes. I am right and your God is wrong.

As for you, you are morally bankrupt. Our conversation is done.

473 posted on 06/11/2007 12:25:09 PM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 472 | View Replies]

To: ahayes

[Baloney. As I said, God’s supposed foreknowledge doesn’t matter because as soon as you kill that baby it’s supposed future is gone, and all you have is a dead baby who never hurt a soul.]

Are you not understanding foreknowledge? Or are you dead set in excusing your rejection of God based on what you know is a false accusation of God?

If you know beforehand whjat a person will do- even before they are born, then you can make a just judgement of that person at any age. That’s what foreknowledge is- knowing what a baby will grow to be. God knows ALL the circumstances that the baby would have faced had been allowed to live and grow old. He knows the hearts conditions in the future. He knows all the choices the baby would have made had it been allowed to lvie- His foreknowledge is complete- you’rs and mine isn’t. Your definition assumes God couldn’t know what that baby would be like had it had the chance to live, and this is simply an erronious definition of His foreknowlege.

[Indeed there is. It’s a whole doctrine built up out of one unclear verse.]

There is more than one verse, and there are other passages that allude to it- Again, it’s not an absolutely clear issue as described in the bible, but some feel it is clear enough- I on the other hand don’t.

[We’re talking about the Godless heathens here, you’re saying they revered women and gave them equal rights?]

I’m saying women in the old cultures were not as ‘oppressed’ as many make them out to be for the reassons I mentioned in previous post.

[As for you, you are morally bankrupt. Our conversation is done.]

Well, I predicted this would be your response because it is clear from your posts, from your excusing of sins of completely evil people, your accusations against a just God that you have your mind set on villifying God no matter what is said. If you wish to run away and accuse me of being morally bankrupt because I have spoken the truth about God’s foreknowledge and His right to objectively and absolutely judge a morally bankrupt group of people, then quite frankly it really doesn’t surprise me. As I said- I’ve been where you are in regards to my views about God, and like you, I avoided being completely honest with myself and accused God unjustly for years over issues I felt God had no right doing- Job also felt this way, and I’ll say that probably most people feel this way about God- As I said, it takes a tough person to bend a knee and admit they are wrong. I can tell you that the anger I had before I did so was all consuming even when I wasn’t actively engaged in arguing my case with people about God, and it ate me up. It was a totally unecessary burden of anger that I carried around with me for far too long, and even htough I wasn’t constantly actively thinking about it, it stil lweighed far too heavy on my empty soul.

If you wish to write me off completely over this issue- that’s fine- I honestly do understand and hold no ill feelings about it but would liek to ask just one hting- Yuo state that you read I assume, extensively God’s word, but I’d liek to ask that you not give up reading His word, only read it asking God and the Holy Spirit to open up God’s truth to you- Ask for the guidance of the Spirit, and ask that He work through your hesitancy. There are a few things that I have to go to God and frankly tell Him “God, I don’t want to see, help me to want it despite my not wanting to see- and He does. Beleive me, there are areas that I’m not comfortable with either in His word.

You don’t have to of course, but it’s just a friendly requeest to not give up


474 posted on 06/11/2007 6:42:03 PM PDT by CottShop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 473 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 301-350351-400401-450451-474 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson