Skip to comments.What Does It Mean "The South Shall Rise Again":
Posted on 05/24/2007 6:03:30 AM PDT by Rebeleye
...he was stunned to see two large Confederate flags flying from trucks...emblazoned with the words "The South Shall Rise Again." I'm stunned, too, that people still think it is cool to fly this flag. Our society should bury these flags -- not flaunt them...because the Confederate flag symbolizes racial tyranny to so many... ...This flag doesn't belong on city streets, in videos or in the middle of civil discussion. It belongs in our past -- in museums and in history books -- along with the ideas it represents.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
Good point, Sherman deserves every ounce of disdain of the past 140 years. I hope Satan is giving him a hot coal enema right now.
What section? Article I, Section 8 says that only Congress exercises control over federal property like forts and therefore only Congress could agree to part with it. What part of the Constitution overrode that?
Since their acts of unilateral secession were illegal then their conduct bore a resemblence to a street riot.
No, they did not. The operative legislation read as follows:
COMMITTEE ON FEDERAL RELATIONS
In the House of Representatives, December 31st, 1836
The Committee on Federal relations, to which was referred the Governors message, relating to the site of Fort Sumter, in the harbour of Charleston, and the report of the Committee on Federal Relations from the Senate on the same subject, beg leave to Report by Resolution:
Resolved, That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same, and any person there being who may be implicated by law; and that the said land, site and structures enumerated, shall be forever exempt from liability to pay any tax to this state.
Also resolved: That the State shall extinguish the claim, if any valid claim there be, of any individuals under the authority of this State, to the land hereby ceded.
Also resolved: That the Attorney-General be instructed to investigate the claims of Wm. Laval and others to the site of Fort Sumter, and adjacent land contiguous thereto; and if he shall be of the opinion that these parties have a legal title to the said land, that Generals Hamilton and Hayne and James L. Pringle, Thomas Bennett and Ker. Boyce, Esquires, be appointed Commissioners on behalf of the State, to appraise the value thereof. If the Attorney-General should be of the opinion that the said title is not legal and valid, that he proceed by seire facius of other proper legal proceedings to have the same avoided; and that the Attorney-General and the said Commissioners report to the Legislature at its next session.
Resolved, That this House to agree. Ordered that it be sent to the Senate for concurrence. By order of the House:
T. W. GLOVER, C. H. R.
IN SENATE, December 21st, 1836
Resolved, that the Senate do concur. Ordered that it be returned to the House of Representatives, By order:
JACOB WARLY, C. S.
You didn't give a date for the South Carolina legislation you quoted, but if you look it up I believe you will find that the three year period you spoke of expired before the construction of Sumter was ever proposed.
Think how much the western theatre would have changed if Johnston would not have been killed at Shiloh. Most battle experts believe without that event the results would not have been a stalemate. i.e. dominoeing to Vicksburg, etc. etc.
So you complain about South haters and use that tired old term "War of Northern Aggression"? Don't you just love the irony in that?
That's the second one. Am I the only one that finds it odd that someone wouldn't be interested in museums, theaters, concerts, or restaurants? Nobody's telling you to live there. Hell, I wouldn't want to live there either. But to consider all that New York has to offer to be totally worthless and not worth visiting just baffles me. By my way of thinking New York is second only to my own home town of Chicago in interesting things to do.
Maybe what they say is true? The difference between yogurt and the South is that yogurt has a living culture.
No, they Rebelled! If Davis was a traitor, why was he never charged?
He was charged. With the passage of the The 14th Amendment punishing all confederate leaders, the charges against him were dropped because of double jeopardy.
You really don't realize how totally foolish you look posting such tripe, do you?
Thank God you are just a damn nut case and not representative of the South.
I've noticed when someone cannot logically refute an argument, they resort to adhomenm attacks.
Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, 1789-1873
SATURDAY, March 2, 1861.
Article 6. No future amendment of the Constitution shall affect the five preceding articles, nor the third paragraph of the second section of the first article of the Constitution, nor the third paragraph of the second section of the fourth article of said Constitution, and no amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress any power to abolish or interfere with slavery in any of the States by whose laws it is or may be allowed or permitted.
It's a pity you can't overcome your emoting, liberal mindset as well as your your public
education indoctrination and get past the 'slavery is eeeevil' issue long enough to realize that the Civil War was the first step to stripping the States of their legitimate authority and to consolidate power in the federal government.
As the rights of the States went, so did the rights of the People, and the federal government, lacking both the legitimate authority as well as the legal ability to free the slaves, merely enslaved us all.
U.S. v. Rhodes, 27 Federal Cases 785, 794:
"The amendment [fourteenth] reversed and annulled the original policy of the constitution"
Considering one of the judges who would have tried the case, John Underwood, was a die-hard Union supporter and the other judge who would have tried the case, Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, would later write the majority opinion in the Texas v. White decision ruling the Southern acts of unilateral secession unconstitutional, I believe the chances of a Davis trial being dismissed on the those grounds hovered between zilch point squat and none. Also, the Davis trial would have been a criminal trial. Criminal trials do not decide what is Constituional and what is not. Only the Supreme Court can do that.
Since the trial would have been held in Virginia there was a very real fear that some people on the jury would not have voted guilty under any circumstances. But I believe that a jury could have been found who would have convicted. Jury packing is not a 21st Century discovery.
I've seen documentaries of Southern POW camps. It wasn't any better. Neither side can claim any honor in the way they treated their prisoners. Both sides ran death camps.
This has been chewed on endlessly on FR but I am always obliged to post once on such foolish threads in the hope someone will actually do some research and change their mind.
The South will rise again, in principle, it is my hope that it is not too late.
Unfortunately, given our government's mindset concerning illegal immigrants, the phrase "the South shall rise again" takes on a whole new meaning.
Bwwwaaaaahhhhh!!!! The Confederate flag has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with heritage. When I was in high school, our fight song was “Dixie” and there was nothing racist about us.
Some people just need to get a life.
The particular veterans are unidentified to me.
The time was July, 1913 and the place was the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania at the 50th Anniversary Gettysburg Reunion when 54,000 Union and Confederate veterans reunited.
The Great Camp, 1913, covering 280 acres.
Philadelphia Brigade Association and Pickett's Division Association, reuniting at the stone wall of the Angle.
Field of Pickett's Charge
The tone that characterizes Free Republic Civil War threads is much more akin to the 1861 tone of the fire-eating politicians that started the war than to the 1913 tone of the Civil War veterans that actually fought the war.
Nonsense. The confederate mistreatment of federal POWs was as deliberate and as criminal as the federal treatment of rebel POWs was. Andersonville was deep in Georgia, an area untouched by the war when it was built. It was a rich and fertile area, providing food for much of the South. The confederates had sufficient transportation to get the POWs to Andersonville so they had transportation to get food there, too. If they had wanted to. They didn't, and tens of thousands died.
And likewise - you don't know enough about me to know where I'm coming from. Like the fact that my grandparents were from the South and I lived in the South for many years.
Maybe you don't know enough about the North to understand it - like the fact that the North is NOT just the large metropolitan areas. We have more farms in Michigan than any of the Southern States.
Take a close look at the election results from the so-called "liberal" states and just see how close many of those elections were. More Michigan residents voted for George Bush than residents of Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, Arkansas, or Virginia. Florida & Texas were the only Southern states to cast more votes for Bush than Michigan did.
Just as all Southerners are not gap-toothed, cousin-marrying rednecks - all Northerners are not gun-grabbing, tree-hugging liberals.
I would like to drop you and your flag off in front of the Henry Horner Homes Housing Project on the cities west side and let them decide if your flag is a symbol of racism, hatred, and opression...
The South did not view it the way you do. Period. You don’t like what the government that ceased to exist in 1865 stated and died for, not my problem.
Your welcome. That said, we’ve beaten this to death.
Childishness? Oh my, are you getting the vapors or something?
They are a hymn stating that the Army of the Potomac was the Army of God and was going to stomp out the South.
Yes, and it was written in 1861, a time when everyone believed that stomping would take place between armies on a battlefield. Sherman would not be marching on Savannah for almost 3 years. So, there goes your idea of Howe promoting civilian deaths, which would be ludicrous even if the song had been written over Christmas in Savannah by Sherman himself.
Killing the enemy is justified, as its Gods punishment.
Written during a war, and used as a marching song by warriors. Again, nothing about civilians. Though the Civil War was tragic and both sides prayed to the same God, it is delusional to think someone is acting like a jihadist if they go to fight a culture based on slavery and they think that might have something to do with the mission of the God who freed the Hebrews, and later the entire human race. John Calvin once said that the soldier in just war is a minister of love because he restrains evil.
Not exactly Christian, here, either.
Why is the word "gospel" not capitalized? Well, that's because when the word is not capitalized it means a tale meant to change an opinion. And though this will likely enrage you, calling it unchristian to desire the defeat of a slave state is your opinion, not doctrine. We and other nations have carried "a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel" to other nations that were doing the works of darkness when it was necessary. Again, Calvin is right.
Here's where we come to the fun part:
As ye deal with My contempters, so with you My grace shall deal If you kill the enemy, you serve God and go to heaven.
Oh, sorry, you messed up there. As we've discussed, words mean things. And the word "contemn" means "to treat or regard with disdain, scorn, or contempt." So, God, in Howe's hymn, is saying that He will give mercy to those who show mercy to those who scorn Him. Then it goes on to say that it is the Hero born of woman who must crush the serpent.
So, just in case you're keeping score, you're now trying to say that a song written before total war, that tells those singing it to show mercy, is a set of instructions to kill Southern civilians. You've even "supported" that view by saying that a crucial line says the exact opposite of what it really says. I can only say "Oops!"
He doesnt address the hymn or those who supported the idea - popular in some avenues of the North - to so punish the South that it would amount to genocide.
Having trouble with linear thought again, eh? What I said was that Lincoln's address...well, addressed, the grapes of wrath. I never said it mentioned Howe's song, and the whole "genocide" idea is yours alone. Here's the pertinent section:
Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. 'Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.' If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether'.
That's the grapes of wrath.
‘Only if you think the entire war was fought in Northern Virginia. In the Western theater from Kentucky to New Orleans, the Confederates were second to none in fielding incompetent commanders.
The big difference is that Lincoln canned the incompetents while Jeff Davis tended to just shuffle them around.’
Hmmm. Bragg, Polk, and The Great Retreater (Johnson) stand out in contrast.
And Lincoln...how to explain his selection of Burnside? Five generals in around what? six months at one point?
I think Lincoln finally got to Grant, and its a good thing he understood the new era of warfare, because if he had screwed up in 1864....the world would be a much different place today.
I see your point very well and at least I now know what Im dealing with.
‘Yes. Someone with a better grasp of both history and the English language.’
Its always fun watching somebody overcompensate on the internet, as you do here.
I thought Waxman was from Florida. Sorry for the mistake.
‘Think how much the western theatre would have changed if Johnston would not have been killed at Shiloh. Most battle experts believe without that event the results would not have been a stalemate. i.e. dominoeing to Vicksburg, etc. etc.’
I think you can make the argument Albert Sidney Johnston was one of the top two or three flag rank officers in the entire CSA. Would that have carried the day against Buell and Wallace’s additional troops?
The math says no, but the CW was a war where numbers didn’t matter in so many battles you can’t say for sure. The South was almost always outnumbered.
How many restaurants do you need? It’s not as if New York is the sole repository of culture in the world....
“But to consider all that New York has to offer to be totally worthless and not worth visiting just baffles me.”
I have visited it. I just wouldn’t want to live there. Not that there would be work in my field, either.
“The difference between yogurt and the South is that yogurt has a living culture.”
We prefer our culture to one based on having 14,000 restaurants. The "culture" of NYC is not American and hasn't been for a long time.
[You, cracking wise] You mean like...New Orleans? Even pre-Katrina?
I lived in pre-"Katrina" New Orleans for a while. What do you want to know about it? What's your point?
Visited Detroit, too, come to think of it.
See, theres what we mean when we say southerners have more class than northerners. What a silly thing to say. We are just different. You enjoy you’re bustling city, I enjoy my peace and quiet. To be honest with you, I have lived in Chicago and the people are just so different from the people here. always in a hurry and so rude. Chicago didn’t impress me at all. The air stunk. I just couldn’t hardly bear it. I couldn’t wait to get back to my beloved Dixie. New York, to me, would be Chicago multiplied about 20 times. More of the same. Keep your cities. Just give me a soft southern breeze. But if you want culture, ever heard of Atlanta, or Memphis? Even New Orleans has alot of things to do. And if you ever wanted to get down in the gutter with us commom folk and actually listen to some really good music, we have Nashville, Tn. And we have Dolly Parton. Now thats no chump change. By the way, Ashville, NC, has the biggest house in the world. Its called Biltmore. So, you’ll come see us sometime.
Hiding my true agenda? This guy agrees you're right on the mark in deducing that I have a dark secret agenda:
You claim the Davis government was tyrannical in action, so the South couldnt have seceded for freedom. This is not logical.
Apparently English is your second language (it's my first)...although I think anyone will be able to conclude from reading this discussion that the real problem is that you hear what you want the other person to have said, rather than what they said. Or perhaps you feel that you're justified reading more intent into it then was plain from the text. Either way, it's intellectually sloppy. Here's the post where I first mentioned Confederate economic micromanagement:
Everyone interested in the Civil war should also check out the section on Southern Big Government in LS's "A Patriot's History of the United States." A real eye-opener...the Confederate government was pretty much running the entire economy down to the smallest detail.
And here's the one where I answered your post:
Let's say for a moment that what you are saying is true. Even so, it would make all this stuff lost causers say about the tyrannical Lincoln and the freedom-loving South a whole lot of horse-hockey.
That said, go read what LS and his co-author wrote about it. There is no comparison.
There is no discussion here of the reasons for secession.
Did the South secede in a search for freedom? Yes, they wanted the freedom to continue slavery and expand it West. But just as they didn't practice freedom on their plantations, they didn't practice it in their government.
I have to leave in a few minutes but I would like to see some of those documentarys.
Isn’t it the claim that it’s the same thing? After all, Lincoln considered the States “in rebellion”.
“He was charged. With the passage of the The 14th Amendment punishing all confederate leaders, the charges against him were dropped because of double jeopardy.”
Since he never had his day in court, double jeopardy didn’t apply. Oh, and since when is the punishment for treason denial of the right to run for office and vote?
The government was nervous about the outcome. The “double jeopardy” thing was a lame excuse.
He did so by fiat, by the way. One of those emanations from the penumbra.
Unbelievable. Your ignorance knows no bounds.
Ah, the true bigot emerges. I was wondering how long it would take for your true agenda to surface.
You aren’t very well educated, are you?
I know that. We are talking about the big sprawling urban areas. The country folks are fine. Just not enough of them.
Well thats because the people there are as racist as you can get.
The radical abolitionists wanted that very thing. Her husband, after all, was in with Brown.
“Written during a war, and used as a marching song by warriors.”
Certainly no Christian hymn. Considering it was directed at fellow Americans, not a very patriotic hymn these days either.
“And though this will likely enrage you, calling it unchristian to desire the defeat of a slave state is your opinion, not doctrine.”
Defeat or mass slaughter? What do you think those rows of bayonets lines means?
“So, God, in Howe’s hymn, is saying that He will give mercy to those who show mercy to those who scorn Hi”
“Oh, sorry, you messed up there.”
Interesting twist on the wording, but not true. It clearly indicates service in the war is a path to salvation. If you deal with the contempters with vigor, grace will be so applied.
“So, just in case you’re keeping score, you’re now trying to say that a song written before total war, that tells those singing it to show mercy, is a set of instructions to kill Southern civilians.”
It’s a song written by friends of John Brown about punishing the South. “Stomping out the vintage” and all that.
“Having trouble with linear thought again, eh?”
Having trouble keeping your hatred for half the country out of your argument? You must be a lawyer.
“Having trouble with linear thought again, eh? What I said was that Lincoln’s address...well, addressed, the grapes of wrath. I never said it mentioned Howe’s song, and the whole “genocide” idea is yours alone. Here’s the pertinent section:”
Of course Lincoln didn’t support mass murder of Southernors. He wasn’t a radical abolitionist. His view of this war has nothing to do with their view.
“Its always fun watching somebody overcompensate on the internet, as you do here.”
Actually, he does. I have no need to “overcompensate” anything. Perhaps you do?
“Just as all Southerners are not gap-toothed, cousin-marrying rednecks - all Northerners are not gun-grabbing, tree-hugging liberals.”
No, just the ones who hate the South as a cover for hating everyone who doesn’t live in a large, urban, rabbit warren, regardless of location.
As I stated earlier, I have a very good idea of what I’m dealing with.
The south lost, slavery is over. I know that is eating up your racist good ole’ boy brain but you’ll have to get over it.
Maybe you should go play your banjo for a few hours to help calm your nerves.
When a liberal says "the interesting thing here.....," what is always interesting to him is that his poison is working on someone.
Scratch a liberal, find a ghoul.
You mean kinda like the southerners who hate all "damn Yankees"?
Pot, meet kettle.
So do I.
“The south lost, slavery is over. I know that is eating up your racist good ole boy brain but youll have to get over it.”
Bigot. No modern Southerner has any interest in resurrecting slavery. In fact, we have far less in the way of racial tensions down here than the North has. The Klan, after all, is headquartered in Indiana, I believe....
What we do want to resurrect is Constitutional government.
“Maybe you should go play your banjo for a few hours to help calm your nerves.”
So, what liberal hellhole do you call home? Please stay there.
Why would I give a flyin' fig newton about what those scumbags think? Fortunately, we have few "housing projects" out here in beautiful, unspolied Idaho...I'm glad your Chicago quality of life is such that you do.
Sheesh...why would I ever go to Chicago, anyway? I've been there before, and don't plan on going back...ever. Too trashy, too crowded, no mountains, can't carry a firearm to protect yourself from the gang thugs, and so on. Oh yeah, and the pizza sucks.
But if I did, I'd be sure to place an extra rebrel flag bumper sticker on my truck...just to pi** you off.
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
Now, you see, there are “Yankees” and “damn Yankees”.
Yankees stay home. Damn Yankees move down here and try to make it a liberal hellhole like home.
All jokes aside, you will find that hate is returned with hate. This thread started with anti-Southern bigotry and degenerated from there.
Like I said, there is no issue between North and South anymore beyond what some in the North want. They hate the South either from what they’ve seen in the movies, or because they hate anyone not living in a city. Since they think that only the South (from movies, again) is rural, it’s the target.
It also makes them feel better to be living in a State they view as the “good guy”, despite history showing there were no “good guys” in that war.
I built a bunch of planes in high school and then took a 15 year hiatus. Since I restarted I’ve built a Spanish-American War battleship, a Gato class sub and a 427 Cobra. I also started a Canadian CF-18 with special airshow markings, but it was destroyed in a cat attack. I’m working on an F-16 Delta Dart right now.
"I am going to keep making the same arguments even if they are disproved our otherwise removed from contention. I'll also keep saying that you are making points that you've never advanced. For example, even after you post text where Lincoln talks about the judgment of God being visited on the nation for the sin of slavery, I will continue to pretend that you were saying that Abe Lincoln supported radical abolitionists, thereby 'disproving' a point you never made. Plus, I'll be sure to play the usual, stupid, bigoted, anti-intellectual 'you disagree with me therefore you hate the South' card."
There...that was wordier than it would have been after a further rewrite, and it was 100 words. Your original version was 350 words, so I cut it by about 72%.
If you think I hate the South you're blind and deaf. We're done here.