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FL lawyer says Giuliani, Romney, McCain wrong on Schiavo case
OneNewsNow ^ | 5/28/07 | Jim Brown

Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee

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To: 8mmMauser

I believe the swallowing tests, which said that she couldn’t swallow.

I am sorry for your son’s troubles but I also know there are times that hope colors perception; I must conclude that is the case for those around Terri Schiavo, based on the CT scan and autopsy report. And again, dehydration does not mean that the neuropathologist couldn’t assess her brain tissue - I have yet to see a credible medical source who asserts that. If you know of a neuropathologist who can flatly assert that, please cite.


101 posted on 05/28/2007 2:11:40 PM PDT by retMD
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To: montag813; wagglebee
The law says otherwise. Don't like it? Then change the law to remove the right of spouses to determine an incapacitated person's fate. Don't like that either? Then make sure people have living wills. We are a nation of laws, not emotions.

Ok, then maybe we will find out one day from the Cold Case file held in the Homicide division of the S. Petersburg police if it ever is allowed to see the light of day. For now, it is blocked according to them by Judge Greer and others of the law as they see it. Maybe you can tell them a Probate Judge is not usually authorized to issue a death sentence on an innocent human.

102 posted on 05/28/2007 2:17:57 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser

According to the visitors, it was not a death sentence, Greer was following Terri’s clear wishes.


103 posted on 05/28/2007 2:22:02 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: 8mmMauser
You seem to know about certain parts of Terri’s situation, yet spill out the standard line of Terri’s adversaries. Perhaps you can enlighten us on your perspective. Do you know any of the players in this travesty?

After hearing conflicting news reports, I wanted to see as much of the medical information for myself as I could. I've looked at or read as much of the actual medicine as I could find. I concluded that sometimes people want to believe so badly that they ignore the facts, and misinterpret random movements and sounds. I've see it before in medicine, and it's always very sad.

I don't know any of the players personally, and had no preconceived notion of what I would find. I lost a loved one to cancer, and I personally know how much I preferred to believe one thing and not another, but my training made me look at it all. There were difficult decisions along the way, and I recognize that slightly different circumstances could have made those decisions much more difficult.

I do have a perspective - I can respect those who argue on moral grounds that hydration shouldn't have been withdrawn. I can not respect those on either side who misrepresent the science to bolster their arguments.

104 posted on 05/28/2007 2:23:00 PM PDT by retMD
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To: wagglebee

Rudy was right on this one.


105 posted on 05/28/2007 2:25:37 PM PDT by hodaka (')
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To: hodaka
Rudy was right on this one.

Which time?

106 posted on 05/28/2007 2:35:56 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

LOL


107 posted on 05/28/2007 2:49:09 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: retMD
What I told you and which you resist understanding is that my son shared the same swallowing issues as Terri and got the same prognosis as Terri and as you suggest. They tried to hook up our son to tubes numerous times and we resisted, fed him successfully all those years. So we know better.

Don't try to couch this to me in touchy-feely terms of hope. It doesn't always work on people with the experience we have. I have seen this condescension of doctors before and shrug it off as just a little embarrassing for the doctors because it is so obvious.

Perhaps if you claim intellectual honesty you may consider both sides of the matter and not write off any opposing views as emotional. It looks to me that you are a bit blinded by bias.

Consider this if moral grounds are important to you. Before they started the exit protocol, she was happy, surprisingly cheerful considering she was kept locked in a room with sensory stimulus at zero, was denied any attempts at all to make her life more pleasant, not to even get sunshine. Her parents and siblings loved her and cared for her and were barred most of the time from even being with her. Even through all this, she retained some cheer. And except for the dehydration part, you think their actions are moral? Maybe your training can have you look at all here, too.

Like you, we have had our own tragedies, quite a few, and we weather them, not through fuzzy feelings, but through Faith. It works fine.

It is practical knowledge we have on feeding and some of our son's doctors lacked that. I won't engage a debate with you on medical matters where you have the weapons of words. I will leave that to others who may engage the topic if you wait with patience. But it is doctors like we faced with our son, and with those with a vested interest in the negative outcome like the successful killing of Terri who give your profession a bad name in my book.

108 posted on 05/28/2007 2:49:18 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: Nightshift

ping...


109 posted on 05/28/2007 2:55:49 PM PDT by tutstar (Baptist Ping list - freepmail me to get on or off.)
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To: 8mmMauser

I’m basing my knowledge on the medical issues, and the swallowing tests and autopsy results said the same thing.

You fed your son successfully, and I commend you. Terri Schiavo was on a feeding tube, not sucessfully fed. According to the GAL report “The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.” She had three swallowing tests: “The recognized gold standard test is the modified barium swallowing test, generally done in a hospital or at a facility that has radiology equipment. Theresa’s three previous tests were barium swallowing tests.”

I do not dispute that doctors make errors, or that patients can do what doctors don’t expect. Yet that isn’t the norm, it’s the exception. If your son had three barium swallow tests and had all three indicated he couldn’t swallow safely, and you had him on tube feeding and were able to convert him to oral feedings, he was the exception.

As for choices, I don’t know what choice I would have made. I can see the difficulty of the issues. I have certainly seen where care was continued long past futility, and the feeling that medicine was tormenting someone for no purpose. I don’t feel that I could or should choose for others in their individual situation, and won’t try. I would not have wanted others to dictate their choices for me and my family.

I am interested in the medicine, and am wary of seeing misinformation posted as fact.


110 posted on 05/28/2007 3:33:48 PM PDT by retMD
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To: retMD
I believe the swallowing tests, which said that she couldn’t swallow.

I appoint you as judge. Terri never had a swallowing test since 1993. You have read testimony from caregivers that she is able to swallow years after that date. Now, before you order that Terri not be allowed not to try oral nutrition, would you order another swallowing test?

111 posted on 05/28/2007 3:39:32 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779

I think you and I have gone over this in the past. She had swallowing tests in 1991, 1992, 1993. I would not expect her to improve at that point, and the testimony you refer to is much disputed. Might I personally have wanted another? Perhaps. Would I expect it to show me anything different? Not really.


112 posted on 05/28/2007 3:42:42 PM PDT by retMD
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To: retMD
I would not expect her to improve at that point, and the testimony you refer to is much disputed.

It wasn't disputed. Since I appointed you as the judge, you just threw it out, just like Greer did.

113 posted on 05/28/2007 3:50:02 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: Semper
The closest family member decided to stop the artificial prolonging of life which had dragged on for several years.

Yes, Food and water, who need these artificial means to prolong life?

114 posted on 05/28/2007 3:57:38 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: 8mmMauser; Semper
Meanwhile, I just finished my own artificial life support, a sandwich, which included a drink of water.

You are being absolutely ridiculous..I mean..didn't you hear that dying of thirst is euphoric! -sarc.

115 posted on 05/28/2007 4:00:54 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: 8mmMauser; frogjerk; bjs1779

I’m actually shocked that this thread has over 100 posts and nobody has tried to say that Terri was “brain dead.”


116 posted on 05/28/2007 4:02:43 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Semper; Gondring
You mean like when Michael showed up and asked the nurses, "when will this bitch die?"

Come on now...that's Michael was just using the latest slang...-sarc.

It is some government of ours where someone could get arrested for trying to give a dying woman a drink of water. This is where absolute libertarianism fails us all.

117 posted on 05/28/2007 4:04:53 PM PDT by frogjerk (If ignorance was bliss, liberals would be happy.)
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To: frogjerk; 8mmMauser
You are being absolutely ridiculous..I mean..didn't you hear that dying of thirst is euphoric!

Of course, there's still the lack of explanation as to how someone who is "in a permanent vegetative state and totally unaware of anything and unable to express anything" can experience complex emotions like euphoria.

118 posted on 05/28/2007 4:05:33 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Denying a person food and water is little different than putting a bullet in their head.

I have to agree. I've spent the last 13yrs working with pediatrics... specifically "medically disabled" children. I can't tell you of ONE family in all those years ...who would have willingly stopped any of their feedings (they were tube fed) or considered their living life, "futile". Some of these children were profoundly retarded...some were quite capable of walking and talking... but every one of them responded positively to being held, touched, stimulated visually or spoken to in a kind manner.

Each child/person has their own level of conciousness... when brain injured...but the one thing that baffles science is the presence of a strong "spirit". It can't be measured with tools...it can only be observed and experienced.

I believe God has a purpose for creating each and every person, undetermined by mere man. To pick and choose who is worthy or unworthy of receiving medical care.... then trying to relieve our consciences by determining they were a "body in a bed anyway" or "usurping valuable resources", is treading thin ice IMHO.

Tell that to a Holy and Righteous God when you stand before Him upon judgement...(and we all will) when He was the one who told us "And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." /rant.

119 posted on 05/28/2007 4:09:42 PM PDT by LaineyDee (Don't mess with Texas wimmen!)
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To: wagglebee
I’m actually shocked that this thread has over 100 posts and nobody has tried to say that Terri was “brain dead.

The brain dead know who they are.

120 posted on 05/28/2007 4:09:54 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: LaineyDee

There is absolutely no way that someone who claims to be a Christian can reconcile supporting Terri’s murder with the last portion of Matthew chapter 25.


121 posted on 05/28/2007 4:15:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: bjs1779
The brain dead know who they are.

But are they euphoric?

122 posted on 05/28/2007 4:21:36 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Nothing more than these comments of this triad of leftist clowns marks them more unfit for higher office under the Republican Presidential Banner than these inane remarks.


123 posted on 05/28/2007 4:28:16 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: wagglebee
These WAckos you write about. As I understand it many sound people were suspended from FreeRepublic because of a differing view on this issue, are these the people you are calling names?

If so what happened to “a political party can’t be all things to all people”? Not everyone is going to agree all of the time. But a house divided against itself surely cannot stand.

This splintering of the Republican Party is not good. Not good at all. I don’t know how they did it but it certainly looks like the Democrats did a fine job in breaking up the party and have taken away the very power of FreeRepublic that brought down the likes of Dan Rather.

124 posted on 05/28/2007 4:37:27 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: MizRiz9

The statement, “a political party can’t be all things to all people” was made by Ronald Reagan in the speech below. Read it and see what Reagan thought about the “splintering” of the GOP.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1735897/posts


125 posted on 05/28/2007 4:41:42 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: MizRiz9; wagglebee
Here is what he said: A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

You may be referring as well to the WAckoes I write about too and call names.

At church we do not give equal time to the devil.

The ones we talk about were not just a small group with a differing opinion, but were on an agenda of meanness to certain ones who disagreed with their mostly liberal views. It didn't always show up to the casual observer but it sure did to those who were targeted. Good riddance to those who meant conservatives harm. I buy into Ronald Reagan's views then and now.

126 posted on 05/28/2007 5:15:14 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: frogjerk

I got tired of the euphoria.

;-)


127 posted on 05/28/2007 5:18:31 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: wagglebee
The statement, “a political party can’t be all things to all people” was made by Ronald Reagan in the speech below

Ah, yes...1975...when Reagan also said:

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.
In other words, we have to keep government out of peoples' lives, and respect their personal wishes and preferences.

And as he said in the speech:

A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.

I do not believe I have proposed anything that is contrary to what has been considered Republican principle. It is at the same time the very basis of conservatism. It is time to reassert that principle and raise it to full view. And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way.
But guess what... I don't mind if you believe the same as the Clinton administration (against physician-assisted suicide, etc.), as long as you don't try to impose your views on me.
128 posted on 05/28/2007 5:27:27 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: wagglebee
Wagglebee,

I loved Ronald Reagan. In fact, he is the reason I am a conservative today.

However, he too compromised on very touchy issues (e.g., early in his California governorship he had signed a permissive abortion bill that resulted in more than a million abortions). Yes, he was firm in his beliefs but he did little to push them through Congress (prayer in school and abortion). However, he did NOT make deals with terrorists and there is the foundation that cannot be splintered.

I agree that we need a steadfast foundation. But what should that foundation be? I am pro-life, I too thought that the Schiavo case was murder. But, and there is a big but here, there are many good people who think that putting Terri on life-support in the first place was “playing God” and that because of technology we kept alive someone that God wanted to take.

I am sorry but I do not think this issue should be the foundation of the party. We are at war. The very reason for government is to protect this wonderful country. Let’s concentrate on the real foundation and put the distractions aside.

129 posted on 05/28/2007 5:40:57 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: Gondring

Well put Gondring


130 posted on 05/28/2007 5:43:51 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: Gondring
But guess what... I don't mind if you believe the same as the Clinton administration (against physician-assisted suicide, etc.), as long as you don't try to impose your views on me.

I guess you weren't at Waco or a little boy in Miami either,ect.

131 posted on 05/28/2007 5:44:05 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: 8mmMauser
This is a Christian church, which condones calling people names? Whoa, “call no man fool” 8mmMauser.

So tell me, would your church throw out the evil tax collector, who many thought was a devil, and Jesus called as a disciple?

Oh get thee behind me Satan.

132 posted on 05/28/2007 5:58:20 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: MizRiz9
Oh get thee behind me Satan.

You sound so giddy in supporting death. Isn't that correct?

133 posted on 05/28/2007 6:28:33 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
Exactly where ever did you get such a erroneous idea? I clearly stated that I was pro-life and I considered the Schiavo case murder.

No, I will say get thee behind me Satan to all those who bar the path to God rather than showing the way.

Giddy? What on earth?

134 posted on 05/28/2007 6:37:46 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: MizRiz9; Gondring
Exactly where ever did you get such a erroneous idea? I clearly stated that I was pro-life and I considered the Schiavo case murder.

Good. Why don't you tell your pal Gondring that?

135 posted on 05/28/2007 6:45:23 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779

My comment to Gonering was not about death. It was about cutting the size of the government.

The statement you commented on was to someone who thinks barring people from Church and God is a good thing. Two different people, two different issues.


136 posted on 05/28/2007 6:55:36 PM PDT by MizRiz9
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To: wagglebee
And the end result was that an innocent woman was MURDERED and any of these candidates would allow it to happen again.

Only if the idiots who run the state fail to govern justly.

137 posted on 05/28/2007 7:01:36 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: Semper
And the end result was that an innocent woman was MURDERED and any of these candidates would allow it to happen again.

This isn't just an opinion, it is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Theresa Marie Schiavo was not sustained by "life support." She was physically incapable of feeding herself.

I invite you to learn to observe, think, and draw your own conclusions, instead of adopting the media line of choice. It's hard work, but you'll be a much better citizen. America is home to enough parrots already.

138 posted on 05/28/2007 7:06:06 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

comments for semper. italicized quote posted in error.


139 posted on 05/28/2007 7:07:24 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: MizRiz9
My comment to Gonering was not about death. It was about cutting the size of the government.

You said that it was murder that what they did to Terri. Correct? Why can't you tell Gonering that?

140 posted on 05/28/2007 7:07:50 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: wagglebee

“Which time?”
When he said that this was a family matter.


141 posted on 05/28/2007 7:11:41 PM PDT by hodaka (')
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To: bjs1779

I was under the impression it had never been documented in the medical record, which means it is disputed, especially when it first surfaces years later. Which is probably also the reason Carla Iyer’s claims were dismissed as “incredible.”

Am I mistaken in this? Do you have a link to the relevant record?


142 posted on 05/28/2007 10:14:28 PM PDT by retMD
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To: MizRiz9

You got a little excited there and didn’t grasp my point. I was giving a simple analogy, not an accusation. I will reframe it. As Ronald Reagan thought, we could have different opinions within the framework of the Republican Party, but not embrace views clearly outside the framework. Pro-death is one of those values outside the fold. And yes, I know how Ronald Reagan thought on those matters.

Likewise in our church, we learn about the Faith from Our Lord’s perspective and do not bring in the devil to have equal time to offer evil as a part of the package. Simple, no? Accusing, Noooo. In case you imagine me as some fanatical maniac religious nut, I am a simple conservative Catholic. Hence my tag line.

Since you consider yourself Christian, then perhaps you just are not completely informed on what happened to Terri from back fifteen years or more, to see how Christians who know and were involved see it. Your perspective wouldn’t have survived three minutes at the vigil at Pinellas Park.

Please repeat louder, “Get thee behind me, Satan” or “Vade Satana, vade retro Satana,” as I actually whispered to the anti-Terri trolls at Pinellas Park.


143 posted on 05/29/2007 3:07:32 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: wagglebee
You have be pro-life for adults as well as the unborn and especially for adults who can't articulate their wishes. They're the ones in the need of the greatest protection. It says something about our country when convicted murderers have more due process protections than innocent disabled adults do.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

144 posted on 05/29/2007 3:18:31 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: wagglebee
The important issue is life. If that right is not guaranteed, all the other rights disappear. Being alive is a prerequisite for their exercise and full enjoyment.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

145 posted on 05/29/2007 3:22:22 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: CheyennePress
The federal government has a duty to step in and provide redress when a state either violates or fails to protect the rights of a citizen of that state. The civil rights battle in this country, for some people, is still far from being won. Our task is to ensure a Culture Of Life protects ALL Americans not just the healthy and those articulate enough to know what their rights are.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

146 posted on 05/29/2007 3:25:18 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: CheyennePress
this should have been left at the state level. It’s unfortunate. I’m not wholly happy with how it turned out. But individual states have traditionally dealt with this issue.

The only reason the Federal Government should be involved is the equal protection clause of the Constitution. If a disabled person is denied the same protection a less disabled person is granted, then it becomes a Federal issue.

147 posted on 05/29/2007 3:25:54 AM PDT by gitmo (From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.)
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To: wagglebee
We have no right to deprive even a dying person of food and water. That is murder. In His due time, God will punish all those who starved Terri Schiavo to death. They will not escape their bloodguilt.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

148 posted on 05/29/2007 3:28:40 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: wagglebee
Exactly. It goes to the heart of our claim to be civilized beings. No one is allowed to treat an animal way. Yet we treated a human being with less consideration that we would a beast and the general attitude was have her die because she was a burden to her family - not all of her family of course but to her husband who forsook his marital vows and wanted his wife dead. Most people decided he had a right to have his wife killed when her usefulness to him ended. My view is admittedly a minority one but I find the notion morally unconscionable. Then again, I believe human life is sacred.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

149 posted on 05/29/2007 3:34:46 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: dsc
I know. We become habituated to euphemisms to shield us from the truth. I keep thinking of Captain Picard's retort to Guinan in "Measure Of A Man": "Harsh, I don't think so. I think that's exactly right. That's what the truth is." The truth is harsh and we need to hear it so we know what is stake. And we know what is at stake in the Terri Schiavo case and what we lose sight of is our rights come from God and they're not subject to a popular vote. Even if a majority agreed with her husband Michael to have her killed it would still be wrong because her rights are inviolable as his and it does not matter if she didn't have the capacity to make her will known. They had to be respected and they weren't. Yes, the truth is harsh and that's what we need to hear here.

Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

150 posted on 05/29/2007 3:42:46 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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