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FL lawyer says Giuliani, Romney, McCain wrong on Schiavo case
OneNewsNow ^ | 5/28/07 | Jim Brown

Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee

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To: T'wit
That's utterly unprofessional.

.

Schiavo timeline troubles governor
Published June 17, 2005

"Bush said he decided to seek the investigation after talking with Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner who spent nearly 11 weeks preparing Schiavo's autopsy report, and learning that the doctor could not determine what led Schiavo to collapse in 1990".....

"What he did say to me that was troubling ... was that there was some doubt about when she collapsed and how long it took for a phone call to be made to 911," Bush said. "I think that is worthy of some investigation."

Jeb Bush asks for investigation after talking with Thogmartin.

=================================================================

Oops!

CREMATION APPROVAL (Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))

1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.

pinellas.fl.us/forensics/policy/policystatement

1,701 posted on 07/17/2007 11:43:50 AM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
Thanks, bjs1779, I'm on the fly, will have to check this a little later. Meanwhile, have a look at the Snead discussion in O. Carter Snead discussion, #277, #287 & #288. This is from an advocate of patient autonomy (= right to die), too. The trolls should hear Prof. Amos from the right, who said that apart from a couple of dissents, every reviewing judge up to and including Supreme Court made himself a party to murder and should be impeached.
1,702 posted on 07/17/2007 12:31:24 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779
>> 1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.

There you are!

Let's also give credit to George Greer for authorizing the cremation; indeed, years in advance -- at Terri's expense! (Another item they raided out of her therapy trust fund.) If I recall, it was a religious sore point, too. As a Catholic, Terri would surely have wished interment rather than cremation.

1,703 posted on 07/17/2007 3:59:39 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
As a Catholic, Terri would surely have wished interment rather than cremation.

As I recall, according to Michael, Terri didn't like "bugs". That was the reason to honor her "wishes" to be cremated. Greer agreed and that is why the Schindlers were not successful in their endeavor to have a normal burial.

And despite what I posted about Florida's cremation laws, Thugmartin didn't delay it by one minute.

1,704 posted on 07/17/2007 4:15:17 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
>> As I recall, according to Michael, Terri didn't like "bugs".

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose that's why he wouldn't let her have religious medallions or cards in her room, and why he wouldn't let her take Holy Communion (2003 murder attempt). Michael was being his usual spiteful self, inflicting as much evil as he could conceive on his victim. Like any sociopath, he blamed her for what he did.

1,705 posted on 07/17/2007 5:55:47 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779
>> Thugmartin didn't delay it by one minute.

Contrary to Florida statute, the M.E. was by no means "assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual" when he did it.

I can think of a question or two that either went unanswered or got dubious answers that needed rechecking. I have no doubt that a top pathologist could think of several more very pointed questions.

1,706 posted on 07/17/2007 6:03:31 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779
>> I heard he hired Dr. Nelson. You know the guy who missed a strangulation case.

He's two for two now.

1,707 posted on 07/17/2007 6:06:51 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
Contrary to Florida statute, the M.E. was by no means "assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual" when he did it.

That is sort of stupid, isn't it? He didn't know the answer to his doubts to begin with. Where did you get that quote at, Matt?

1,708 posted on 07/17/2007 6:56:42 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: T'wit
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose that's why he wouldn't let her have religious medallions or cards in her room, and why he wouldn't let her take Holy Communion (2003 murder attempt). Michael was being his usual spiteful self, inflicting as much evil as he could conceive on his victim. Like any sociopath, he blamed her for what he did.

For some reason, You sound very out of sorts tonight. Not your usual style. Are you responding to me or someone else?

1,709 posted on 07/17/2007 7:18:31 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
>> For some reason, You sound very out of sorts tonight. Not your usual style. Are you responding to me or someone else?

Goodness, my apologies! I was being scornful of Michael's claim about the "bugs."

1,710 posted on 07/17/2007 7:24:48 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779
>> Where did you get that quote at, Matt?

From you :-) -- up in #1701. And a nice find it was. Matt probably never heard of that statute.

1,711 posted on 07/17/2007 7:27:07 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit

You have a nice sleep tonight, T’wit. : ) It can get to us, I know.


1,712 posted on 07/17/2007 7:34:23 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
>> You have a nice sleep tonight, T’wit. : )

I was just thinking I'd take a swan dive and hope to hit the bed :-) See ya tomorrow.

1,713 posted on 07/17/2007 7:38:28 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
Sorry T'wit, I misconstrued that totally.

Btw, I wonder if the M.E. would be required to save those implants? Looks like there is more to the story than what we are led believe, too.

1,714 posted on 07/18/2007 1:10:58 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
>> Btw, I wonder if the M.E. would be required to save those implants?

Not sure what you mean by implants?

The M.E. presumably is saving all tissue samples that were taken, including brain tissues. Whether that could do any good, I don't know. What I think we needed was soft tissue from the neck for doing sophisticated testing that could still reveal strangulation signs, even after all the years. We'll have to get some expert opinion.

1,715 posted on 07/18/2007 2:05:12 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
Not sure what you mean by implants?

The stimulator electrodes that were implanted.

I lifted this whole smear from another website. It also has information on what the FDA warning was on implants and how Nelson misstates what they said. The whole thing is worth the read, but the pertinent part I am referring to is toward the bottom.

=====================================================

.

"Finally, I don’t understand Dr. Nelson’s defense of the decision not to do an MRI. It adds nothing to the findings, is hardly objective and seems to serve only as CYA foliage.

He bases it on potential harm that could have happened to Terri because of the implanted stimulators—but says nothing about whether those stimulators couldn’t have been safely removed. Further, he has a little problem with how he argues that part of his report, calling his objectivity in to question."

"Dr. Boyle of Code Blue Blog disagreed with that assessment and he is a radiologist—the kind of dotor who would actually administer the MRI. He says in the post linked below (again in comments):"

-----------------------------------------------------------

"In addition, it is hard to believe that anyone inserted electrodes, in 1992, that had paramagnetic properties that would preclude an MRI of the brain currently. I doubt that. Most of those devices are titanium or stainless steel, which are unaffected by MRI. Besides, with MRI, in that type of situation, the only reason not to do an MRI is because you are looking for information in the region of the artifact, where there would be distortion of the image.

If the items are not paramagnetic (like iron), there would be no danger and no contraindication to an MRI. Sounds bogus to me."

Implants

1,716 posted on 07/18/2007 2:25:50 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: T'wit
The M.E. presumably is saving all tissue samples that were taken, including brain tissues.

Probably 'selective' tissue at best. I say that because of what he says in the autopsy report. For example:

"On March 29th 2004, a Hospice nurse noted apparent injection sites on Mrs. Schiavo's arms, and what appeared to be a plastic needle cap was also found in her room. Reportedly, these were discovered by Hospice shortly after a visit by her parents." In response to this, Michael had her examined at the hospital."

Okay, this was meant to explore an attempt on Terri's life, I guess. He also pointed out Nurse Iyer's affidavit with the insulin charge. I just wonder why he didn't mention that Michael actually tried to kill her in 1993 by withholding antibiotics? Does that seem fair and balanced?

1,717 posted on 07/18/2007 4:06:25 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779; Tajitaw
It was my understanding that there was a single implant, so when you used the plural, I wanted to be sure I understood. I dunno, maybe there was more than one. (Not worth researching :-) )

It's that white thing in the middle, I believe:

Dr. Boyle's point is interesting. I remember the excuse they used for not doing one, namely, that an MRI would fry the brain area around the implant. It was my understanding that a functional MRI (fMRI) could be done safely, but never was. However, I'm not a medic so would be glad to get professional advice on such questions.

1,718 posted on 07/18/2007 4:57:12 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit
It was my understanding that there was a single implant, so when you used the plural, I wanted to be sure I understood.

I understand. The only reason I thought it could be plural is because if a bird sits on a high voltage power line, nothing happens. That doesn't mean I am right. Did Dr. Nelson tell us exactly what the situation was?

1,719 posted on 07/18/2007 5:31:49 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: T'wit
I wonder if our other radiologist friend would know?
1,720 posted on 07/18/2007 5:36:18 PM PDT by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
I believe others referred to "implants" also, perhaps in general discussion. No matter, it's a simple factual question. We can check the fact in one of the Terri books.

I was struck by SueBob's lawyerly point that Dr. Nelson's reference to the implant didn't belong in the autopsy report. It was like he was offering a legal argument. It was CYA. He was making excuses for the lack of an MRI -- unconvincingly. SueBob pointed out that this was defensive argument, not objective reporting... and wondered why he did it? It reduced his credibility. She came back to this point several times in her blogging.

Dr. Nelson further reduced his credibility by saying Terri's condition "was consistent with" PVS, which is meaningless or an illegitimate post-mortem finding. Her condition was just as "consistent with" higher states of consciousness. Nelson was stacking the deck. He did it much more flamboyantly by comparing Terri's brain weight to Karen Ann Quinlan's. That is grandstanding, not objectivity.

This may very well be another strangulation that he missed. He should put his skill at missing strangulations on his resume.

1,721 posted on 07/18/2007 6:08:43 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779
>> I wonder if our other radiologist friend would know?

Probably not, but it will be easy to find in a book. It really doesn't matter for our discussion.

1,722 posted on 07/18/2007 6:10:23 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: bjs1779; 8mmMauser; BykrBayb; Tajitaw

Bttt. I think this thread has unanswered questions and room to grow. Whatchya think?


1,723 posted on 07/24/2007 8:59:09 AM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit; bjs1779; BykrBayb; Tajitaw

This thread is a keeper! It is chock full of info, and largely thanks to those hapless trolls who unwittingly did good while trying to do bad all in the name of unintended consequences.

So long as they are kept on a leash, they can be handy and fun even if they nip anyone who comes too near, but do have some use.

The thread may become useful as a reference thread, and as it remains active, is likely to attract some more contention.


1,724 posted on 07/25/2007 3:48:23 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: wagglebee

Wow, look how your thread developed!

;-)


1,725 posted on 07/25/2007 4:08:03 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser

We had a number of trolls who decided to euthanize themselves!


1,726 posted on 07/25/2007 4:29:48 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; T'wit

As the troll stood, gun pointing to his head, his wife pleaded, “Please do not kervorkian yourself.”

“Shut up,” he said, “You’re next!”


1,727 posted on 07/25/2007 4:46:20 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser
>> It is chock full of info, and largely thanks to those hapless trolls who unwittingly did good while trying to do bad ...

Romans 8:28:
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

I have a dear friend (indeed, a former or inactive Freeper) who argues that this is the most important verse in scripture. It certainly demands the closest contemplation and study.

1,728 posted on 07/25/2007 9:02:19 AM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: 8mmMauser
:-P

"Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Four shots Kevorked into my groin and I was off on the greatest adventure of my life."

(Now let's see if we have any Max Shulman fans around here :-) )

1,729 posted on 07/25/2007 9:06:19 AM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit

I was a fan of Max Shulman. Can we say Rally Round the Flag, Boys? It was one of my treasures of youth. His humor fit right in. But I confess, I can’t place your Bang.


1,730 posted on 07/25/2007 11:24:46 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser
First line of "Sleep Till Noon." It had absolutely nothing to do with the book. Max just thought it would be a great first line for a book :-) I went searching for it just now, found a few SIGNED copies for sale, and pounced on one. Just for old times' sake.

My introduction to Shulman was "Barefoot Boy with Cheek." This book had an even better first line... think about it :-) ... sticking a pushpin into his alma mater: "St. Paul and Minneapolis extend from the Mississippi River like the legs on a pair of trousers. Where they join is the University of Minnesota."

In fact, the whole book was a spoof on the U. of Minnesota, with such characters as Asa Hearthrug (our hero), Lodestone la Toole, his hometown sweetheart who eats lard sandwiches, Yetta Samovar, the campus subversive, and Noblesse Oblige, a member of the Beta Thigh sorority. (Asa's fraternity, which he joined because he fell into their pit trap, was Alpha Cholera.) The stupid athlete was named Eino Flikkeninnen, or something along those lines. SO Minnesota.

1,731 posted on 07/25/2007 12:09:43 PM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit

Placemark and tagline practice


1,732 posted on 07/29/2007 2:42:47 PM PDT by T'wit (Never trust your daughter or your silver to a man who believes he's the product of amoral evolution.)
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To: T'wit

Bttt


1,733 posted on 07/30/2007 2:47:42 AM PDT by T'wit (Never trust your daughter or your silver to a man who believes he's the product of amoral evolution.)
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To: T'wit

Placemark.


1,734 posted on 07/31/2007 1:07:23 AM PDT by T'wit (Visitors: you come here expecting a turkey shoot, and then you find out that you are the turkey.)
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To: T'wit

Tagline practice. This one is by Fred Allen, but there isn’t room to attribute it.


1,735 posted on 08/03/2007 9:45:07 PM PDT by T'wit ("When you get through all the phony tinsel of Hollywood, you find the genuine tinsel underneath")
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To: T'wit

A lyric by Billie Ray Cyrus


1,736 posted on 08/03/2007 9:46:25 PM PDT by T'wit (All gave some~Some gave all~Some stood true for the red, white & blue~Some had to fall~Some gave all)
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To: T'wit; 8mmMauser; BykrBayb; Sun; bjs1779

Goodbye, Godspeed and thank you for everything.


1,737 posted on 08/04/2007 6:19:43 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: T'wit

1,738 posted on 08/04/2007 6:28:35 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: T'wit
1,736 posted on 08/04/2007 12:46:25 AM EDT by T'wit (All gave some~Some gave all~Some stood true for the red, white & blue~Some had to fall~Some gave all) A lyric by Billy Ray Cyrus

Sharing with others what really matters until the last bugle blew. Thank you, T'wit, for everything.

1,739 posted on 08/05/2007 11:15:41 AM PDT by Albion Wilde ( “A nation without borders is not a nation.” —Ronald Reagan)
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To: T'wit; 8mmMauser; BykrBayb
The banned troll wrote:
It is obvious from your posts that you don’t know what you are talking about.

T'wit responded:
It is obvious you're still molesting a goat.

I was just reading back through this thread and came across one of T'wit's last posts.

I'm sure I had seen it last summer, but I couldn't help laughing when I read it again.

"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."
-- Elie Wiesel

1,740 posted on 02/07/2008 11:20:32 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: T'wit


Billy Ray Cyrus ~ Some Gave All.mp3

I knew a man called him Sandy Kane

Few folks even knew his name

But a hero yes was he

Left a boy, came back a man

Still many just don't understand

About the reasons we are free


I can't forget the look in his eyes

Or the tears he cries

As he said these words to me


All gave some and some gave all

And some stood through
For the red, white and blue

And some had to fall

And if you ever think of me

Think of all your liberties and recall

Some gave all

--- instrumental ---


Now Sandy Kane is no longer here

But his words are oh so clear

As they echo through out our land

For all his friends who gave us all

Who stood the ground and took the fall

To help their fellow man


Love your country and live with pride

And don't forget those who died
America can't you see


All gave some and some gave all

And some stood through
For the red, white and blue

And some had to fall

And if you ever think of me

Think of all your liberties and recall

Some gave all
And if you ever think of me

Think of all your liberties
And recall, yes recall

Some gave all

Some gave all

Þ

1,741 posted on 05/30/2009 5:59:54 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Ʋ)
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To: BykrBayb; T'wit; 8mmMauser

Great post!


1,742 posted on 05/30/2009 6:02:03 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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