Skip to comments.FL lawyer says Giuliani, Romney, McCain wrong on Schiavo case
Posted on 05/28/2007 9:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee
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Schiavo timeline troubles governor
Published June 17, 2005
"Bush said he decided to seek the investigation after talking with Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner who spent nearly 11 weeks preparing Schiavo's autopsy report, and learning that the doctor could not determine what led Schiavo to collapse in 1990".....
"What he did say to me that was troubling ... was that there was some doubt about when she collapsed and how long it took for a phone call to be made to 911," Bush said. "I think that is worthy of some investigation."
CREMATION APPROVAL (Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))
1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.
There you are!
Let's also give credit to George Greer for authorizing the cremation; indeed, years in advance -- at Terri's expense! (Another item they raided out of her therapy trust fund.) If I recall, it was a religious sore point, too. As a Catholic, Terri would surely have wished interment rather than cremation.
As I recall, according to Michael, Terri didn't like "bugs". That was the reason to honor her "wishes" to be cremated. Greer agreed and that is why the Schindlers were not successful in their endeavor to have a normal burial.
And despite what I posted about Florida's cremation laws, Thugmartin didn't delay it by one minute.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose that's why he wouldn't let her have religious medallions or cards in her room, and why he wouldn't let her take Holy Communion (2003 murder attempt). Michael was being his usual spiteful self, inflicting as much evil as he could conceive on his victim. Like any sociopath, he blamed her for what he did.
Contrary to Florida statute, the M.E. was by no means "assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual" when he did it.
I can think of a question or two that either went unanswered or got dubious answers that needed rechecking. I have no doubt that a top pathologist could think of several more very pointed questions.
He's two for two now.
That is sort of stupid, isn't it? He didn't know the answer to his doubts to begin with. Where did you get that quote at, Matt?
For some reason, You sound very out of sorts tonight. Not your usual style. Are you responding to me or someone else?
Goodness, my apologies! I was being scornful of Michael's claim about the "bugs."
From you :-) -- up in #1701. And a nice find it was. Matt probably never heard of that statute.
You have a nice sleep tonight, T’wit. : ) It can get to us, I know.
I was just thinking I'd take a swan dive and hope to hit the bed :-) See ya tomorrow.
Btw, I wonder if the M.E. would be required to save those implants? Looks like there is more to the story than what we are led believe, too.
Not sure what you mean by implants?
The M.E. presumably is saving all tissue samples that were taken, including brain tissues. Whether that could do any good, I don't know. What I think we needed was soft tissue from the neck for doing sophisticated testing that could still reveal strangulation signs, even after all the years. We'll have to get some expert opinion.
The stimulator electrodes that were implanted.
I lifted this whole smear from another website. It also has information on what the FDA warning was on implants and how Nelson misstates what they said. The whole thing is worth the read, but the pertinent part I am referring to is toward the bottom.
"Finally, I dont understand Dr. Nelsons defense of the decision not to do an MRI. It adds nothing to the findings, is hardly objective and seems to serve only as CYA foliage.
He bases it on potential harm that could have happened to Terri because of the implanted stimulatorsbut says nothing about whether those stimulators couldnt have been safely removed. Further, he has a little problem with how he argues that part of his report, calling his objectivity in to question."
"Dr. Boyle of Code Blue Blog disagreed with that assessment and he is a radiologistthe kind of dotor who would actually administer the MRI. He says in the post linked below (again in comments):"
"In addition, it is hard to believe that anyone inserted electrodes, in 1992, that had paramagnetic properties that would preclude an MRI of the brain currently. I doubt that. Most of those devices are titanium or stainless steel, which are unaffected by MRI. Besides, with MRI, in that type of situation, the only reason not to do an MRI is because you are looking for information in the region of the artifact, where there would be distortion of the image.
If the items are not paramagnetic (like iron), there would be no danger and no contraindication to an MRI. Sounds bogus to me."
Probably 'selective' tissue at best. I say that because of what he says in the autopsy report. For example:
"On March 29th 2004, a Hospice nurse noted apparent injection sites on Mrs. Schiavo's arms, and what appeared to be a plastic needle cap was also found in her room. Reportedly, these were discovered by Hospice shortly after a visit by her parents." In response to this, Michael had her examined at the hospital."
Okay, this was meant to explore an attempt on Terri's life, I guess. He also pointed out Nurse Iyer's affidavit with the insulin charge. I just wonder why he didn't mention that Michael actually tried to kill her in 1993 by withholding antibiotics? Does that seem fair and balanced?
It's that white thing in the middle, I believe:
Dr. Boyle's point is interesting. I remember the excuse they used for not doing one, namely, that an MRI would fry the brain area around the implant. It was my understanding that a functional MRI (fMRI) could be done safely, but never was. However, I'm not a medic so would be glad to get professional advice on such questions.
I understand. The only reason I thought it could be plural is because if a bird sits on a high voltage power line, nothing happens. That doesn't mean I am right. Did Dr. Nelson tell us exactly what the situation was?
I was struck by SueBob's lawyerly point that Dr. Nelson's reference to the implant didn't belong in the autopsy report. It was like he was offering a legal argument. It was CYA. He was making excuses for the lack of an MRI -- unconvincingly. SueBob pointed out that this was defensive argument, not objective reporting... and wondered why he did it? It reduced his credibility. She came back to this point several times in her blogging.
Dr. Nelson further reduced his credibility by saying Terri's condition "was consistent with" PVS, which is meaningless or an illegitimate post-mortem finding. Her condition was just as "consistent with" higher states of consciousness. Nelson was stacking the deck. He did it much more flamboyantly by comparing Terri's brain weight to Karen Ann Quinlan's. That is grandstanding, not objectivity.
This may very well be another strangulation that he missed. He should put his skill at missing strangulations on his resume.
Probably not, but it will be easy to find in a book. It really doesn't matter for our discussion.
Bttt. I think this thread has unanswered questions and room to grow. Whatchya think?
This thread is a keeper! It is chock full of info, and largely thanks to those hapless trolls who unwittingly did good while trying to do bad all in the name of unintended consequences.
So long as they are kept on a leash, they can be handy and fun even if they nip anyone who comes too near, but do have some use.
The thread may become useful as a reference thread, and as it remains active, is likely to attract some more contention.
Wow, look how your thread developed!
We had a number of trolls who decided to euthanize themselves!
As the troll stood, gun pointing to his head, his wife pleaded, “Please do not kervorkian yourself.”
“Shut up,” he said, “You’re next!”
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."
I have a dear friend (indeed, a former or inactive Freeper) who argues that this is the most important verse in scripture. It certainly demands the closest contemplation and study.
"Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang! Four shots Kevorked into my groin and I was off on the greatest adventure of my life."
(Now let's see if we have any Max Shulman fans around here :-) )
I was a fan of Max Shulman. Can we say Rally Round the Flag, Boys? It was one of my treasures of youth. His humor fit right in. But I confess, I can’t place your Bang.
My introduction to Shulman was "Barefoot Boy with Cheek." This book had an even better first line... think about it :-) ... sticking a pushpin into his alma mater: "St. Paul and Minneapolis extend from the Mississippi River like the legs on a pair of trousers. Where they join is the University of Minnesota."
In fact, the whole book was a spoof on the U. of Minnesota, with such characters as Asa Hearthrug (our hero), Lodestone la Toole, his hometown sweetheart who eats lard sandwiches, Yetta Samovar, the campus subversive, and Noblesse Oblige, a member of the Beta Thigh sorority. (Asa's fraternity, which he joined because he fell into their pit trap, was Alpha Cholera.) The stupid athlete was named Eino Flikkeninnen, or something along those lines. SO Minnesota.
Placemark and tagline practice
Tagline practice. This one is by Fred Allen, but there isn’t room to attribute it.
A lyric by Billie Ray Cyrus
Goodbye, Godspeed and thank you for everything.
Sharing with others what really matters until the last bugle blew. Thank you, T'wit, for everything.
It is obvious you're still molesting a goat.
I was just reading back through this thread and came across one of T'wit's last posts.
I'm sure I had seen it last summer, but I couldn't help laughing when I read it again.
"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest."
-- Elie Wiesel
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