Posted on 05/30/2007 5:01:33 AM PDT by drzz
From : Laurie Mylroie Sent : Sat, 07 26 2007 18:54:48 To : drzz Subject : Re: Thank you for your fight for truth
Thank you very much for your extremely kind note. You can be sure that Iraq was behind 9/11--and the anthrax letters that followed. The FBI has yet to explains, six years later, who was responsible for the anthrax letters!
Thanks for sending the videos. Unfortunately, I'm traveling now and don't have a very fast internet connection, but thanks again for your note.
Laurie Mylroie
The videos she is talking about are those :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwD3DCiIpO8&eurl=
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1sx7x_saddams-secrets
Mylroie earned a doctorate in Political Science from Harvard University and was employed in the school’s Government Department. She was an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College, and an Iraq consultant for Bill Clinton during his 1992 campaign for President.
She is now an adjunct fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
>>From : Laurie Mylroie Sent : Sat, 07 26 2007
Laurie must be in a time zone far, far away. :)
save
ping
But of course. And 911 isn’t the only thing...
How about OKC and Hussein al Hussaini? http://www.jaynadavis.com
I’ve read her books, they are great. She used to send out Iraq/Alqaeda related emails, I haven’t received one in a while
I begin to think Saddam was behind all the major strikes that killed Americans from 1980’s to 2003.
Not much surprise here. Today Iran is behind all the anti-american strikes from Algeria to Asia.
I’m even beginning to wonder about NK, China and possibly Russia. It may be a little premature, but we all know it’s coming...
I believe it.
Freepmail. Just a random thought...
It is possible people have it but never checked.
Atta went to Prague several times between 1999 and 2001.
If you visited Prague during this period...
Sometimes, the best evidence comes from the most unexpected things...
The absurd things that some people believe never ceases to amaze me. And to believe Laurie Mylroie is just plain unfathomable.
But, it's just another example of not being able to prove the negative. As long as no one can prove that Saddam did NOT do it, then people can feel free to believe that Saddam DID do it.
Evidence clearly has no meaning when talking about beliefs. So, there's no point in discussing facts and evidence.
It appears that the only way to prove to some people that Saddam did NOT do it is to prove who actually DID do it. But sometimes I think that even that might not be enough.
I love your website, so I wanted you to see the story. I wasn’t endorsing it.
I, for example, have an ironclad alibi. Others don't.
Saddam, for one!
Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
I was just commenting on the situation. I wasn't replying to you specifically. I apologize if it seemed that way.
Thanks for the ping.
It's just that some ideas seem beyond belief .... yet people still believe them.
I’m surprised no one promoting a Saddam-Al Qaeda theory has delved into the background of Zawahiri’s chief aide, al-Hadi al-Iraqi, who was captured last year and now has been moved to Guantanamo. A long-time jihadist, he was once a major in Saddam’s army. It will be fascinating to hear what he has to say given that he was trusted by both Bin Laden and Zawahiri.
As for the anthrax crimes — and let’s hope al-Hadi’s capture has led to a breakthrough — analysis instead is best organized around a consideration of the Means, Motive, Modus Operandi and Opportunity of the crime.
I. Anthrax and the Vanguards of Conquest
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/
The eivdence pointing to Al Qaeda’s responsibility has steadily mounted with each new revelation and public announcement. It’s known that this was Ayman’s intent since the capture of the EIJ military commander in 1998.
II. Means: Al Qaeda’s Biochem Program Codenamed Yogurt
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#Zabadi
LM is mistaken in thinking that AQ needed Saddam’s help. Moreover, none of the documentary evidence suggests Ayman was relying on Saddam for the technical assistance. Instead, he was relying on specialists working under the cover of NGOs and Universities.
a. The 1999 Announcement of Zawahiri’s Quest to Weaponize Anthrax
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#1999Announcement
In 1999, Attorney Al Zayat, the blind sheik’s attorney and other captured EIJ leaders said Ayman would use anthrax to retaliate against the rendering of former EIJ leaders. It would be foolish for Saddam to use anthrax given that had the same public notice that Ayman was going to do it. In other words, there’s no reason to attack your enemy if another guy is going to attack in that way. (Remember back to the days you played the board game “Risk”).
b. Zawahiri’s April/May 1999 Emails To Al Qaeda’s Military Commander Atef
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#ZawahirisemailstoAtef
Atef was killed in November 2001. Cross him off the list of operatives available to participate in a follow-up attack.
c. “I successfully achieved the targets”: Pakistan Scientist Rauf Ahmad’s Assistance in 1999 and 2000
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#Mid-1999%20Documents
The Pakistan ISI hasn’t cooperated with the FBI on this since early 2003. I named the guy in 2002 along with Sufaat.
d. “You are dead! Bang”: Ayman’s Plan To Use Charities And Universities As Cover
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#PlantoUseCharitiesandUniversities
The documentary evidence contradicts Ed’s theory on the language that would be used.
e. Al Qaeda’s 2001 Threat To Use Mailed Anthrax In Connection With Jailed EIJ Leader And Former Bin Laden Farm Manager Mahmoud Mahjoub
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#January2001threat
It was this that prompted the February 2001 PDB to President Bush about the CBRN efforts and the September 2001 report on the threat of mailed anthrax.
The White House knew of the anthrax threat not because of some sinister plot but because they knew there was anthrax planning being done in parallel with the other planned spectacular attacks. Indeed, in his book, George Tenet says the anthrax was done in parallel with the 9/11 planning and even that Ramzi Bin-alShibh was involved in CBRN planning.
f. Taliban’s Interest In The Anthrax Vaccine Laboratory
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#TalibanInterestinVaccineLab
The interest of Taliban ministers is especially interesting given the claim by an Afghan governor that a Taliban minister was captured recently with packets of anthrax intended for mailing to government officials. The same guy says the Pakistan ISI is protecting Mullah Omar. Neither report has been confirmed yet.
g. Hambali, Anthrax Lab Tech Yazid Sufaat, and Ayman’s Anthrax Bomb Maker
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#HambaliandSufaat
h. March 2003 Seizure of Anthrax Production Documents On KSM’s Laptop and Arrest of Bacteriologist Dr. Abdul Qudus Khan
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxc.html#KSMandAbdulQuduusKhan
LM’s email referenced in the original post reminds me of Barbara Rosenberg’s email to me in December 2001: “The FBI knows who the suspects are.”
Neither LM, BHR, nor Ed ever actually processes or address the new information — and they certainly never pursue the leads such as interview of Dr. Abdul Qudus Khan.
Neither do the vast majority of journalists.
i. 2003 Capture of Hambali and Sufaat’s Assistants, and the Seizure of Extremely Virulent Anthrax
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxb.html#ExtremelyVirulent
j. 2007 Capture of Taliban Spokesman With Anthrax Packets Intended For Mailing To Government Officials
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxb.html#TalibanSpokesmanPacketsofAnthrax
This report has neither been confirmed nor debunked. Fascinating that no reporter doesn’t make it a point to do so by calling the office of the Afghan provincial governor.
III. Motive: Reason Senators Leahy and Daschle and the Media Were Targeted
a. The Anthrax Letters: “Written In Language You Can Understand”
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#Motive
b. Profile of an Angry Man: Ayman
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#ProfileofAnAngry
Ed’s theory is really no different than Barbara Rosenberg’s theory — who he harshly criticizes. He just fills in the detail with someone other than Dr. Hatfill. But all his arguments against her theory applies equally as to his own theory. A patriot sounding the alarm about the risk of deadly pathogens is simply not a motive to commit murder by mailng those deadly pathogens to strangers.
c. FBI: “Think 9/11.” “Think Oklahoma City.”
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#Profile
This quote by FBI Director Mueller about who the FBI thinks is responsible says it all. The USG/FBI certainly does not credit LM’s theory - nor does Tenet who in his book notes his belief that there is 2006 evidence that seems to lay a Prague theory to rest.
How does Ed understand “Think 9/11” to mean “a patriot sound an alarm”? or call an emergency parent-teacher conference because, he thinks, a 1st grader wrote the letters? When he first announced his theory, he acknowledged it was wild speculation. Given all the evidence that has mounted relating to Al Qaeda in the past 5 years, it is even wilder speculation today.
d. Significance of Mailing Dates: Camp David Accord and Sadat’s Assassination
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#Mailing%20Dates
AQ doesn’t usually plan attacks based on dates. But Ayman/Vanguards of Conquest (the military wing of the EIJ) do plan their messages around dates and anniversaries. Indeed, Ayman has taken to expressly explaining the anniversary applicable to a speech or message.
e. “Leahy Law” and Appropriations to Military and Security Units
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#Leahy%20Law
I believe Leahy thinks AQ did it. See quote about plane that invaded Capitol airspace. He wasn’t concerned that some patriot was back sounding another alarm.
f. Zawahiri’s View of the “Lies” of the Secular Media
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#Secular%20Media
g. “Release Him”: Retaliation for Detention of the Blind Sheikh and Other Detainees
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxd.html#RetaliationforDetention
Most of the terrorist matters have involved folks inspired by the Blind Sheik’s detention.
IV. Modus Operandi: “Pouring Musk on Barren Lands”
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#PouringMuskonBarrenLand
The question of tactics has been the subject of sharp debate within the movement and this fact could be helpful in profilng. The perp would favor the view that felt bound by restrictions on the conduct of warfare. Or at least he would be constraining himself so as to not lose the support of members of the Movement who fell on that side of the debate.
a. Related 1996 Letter Bombs to DC and New York Papers and Symbolic Targets
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#EarlierWTCBombs
This is highly probative as to modus operandi.
b. Targeted Assassination of Individuals in Symbolic Positions
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#TargetedAssassination
Ed used to argue that this was not Ayman’s modus operandi. He likely has abandoned in the face of the massive documentary evidence showing otherwise. So we can scratch off this argument as to “modus operandi”
c. Requirement Under Laws of Jihad of Warning Before Using Nonconventional Weapons
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#RequirementofWarning
This is the one Ed simply does not get and he never discusses the merits — such as the book the first EIJ leader came out with this month. That guy’s lawyer is Al-Zayat, the one who explained in March 1999 (it was March 1999, not 1998, as I said earlier in the thread) who said that Ayman would use anthrax against US targets to retaliation for the rendering of EIJ leaders. Al Zayat’s co-founder of a party in 1999 has been arrested this month as Zawahiri’s conduit to jihadists in Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and Algeria.
d. Continuing Practice of Sending Poisonous Letters as Threats
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#ContinuingPractice
One using hydrazine sent during a trial said “Set our brothers free. Bastards.” No flowery Arabic phrasing there, Ed.
e. Use of Code:
Jennifer Lopez Letter and Atta’s Jenny Code
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#JennyCode
TrebleRebel once posted a brilliant picture relating to Ramzi’s code for 9/11 which is even more relevant now (along with his Jenny code) now that Ramzi is said by Tenet to be a CBRN player. Ed says the letters show it was not AQ when actually the letters show exactly the opposite. Leonard Cole, who did important interviewing of AMI employees on this issue, has come out with a new book about lessons that Israel and the US have learned about terrorism where he addresses the anthrax mailings some.
“School”
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#GreendaleSchoolCode
Given that “school” was Ayman’s code for EIJ, the anthrax mailer is either EIJ or an intel insider (or both). It turns out both.
“In the Hearts of Green Birds” (Inside Green Birds)
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#HeartsofGreenBirds
Go ahead. Click to see a blown up picture of the stamp. Now that Ramzi, Tenet says, was CBRN, his explanation of the “Green Birds”symbolism is even more significant.
After someone posted “Code of the Anthrax Letters” here on April 11, two weeks later, the New Brunswick fellow who mirrored the unofficial Al Qaeda website that explained the meaning of “Green Birds” has been indicted for income tax evasion. The webmaster of the main site, azzam.com, has been extradited from London. His name is Babar Ahmad.
KSM and Clouds (Al-Sahab)
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#KSMandClouds
The first anthrax letter had “clouds” pictured on it and Ayman’s and KSM’s group is called Sahab — meaning “Clouds”?
Allusion to Atta and Genomic Sequencing of the Ames Strain
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#Double-liningofA’sandT’s
f. Summer 2001 Inquiries About Cropdusters and Helicopters
Given the strict compartmentalization that Tenet says applied, even someone making inquiries for this purpose would be generally left in the dark.
g. KSM’s Plan to Poison A Reservoir
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#KSM’sReservoirPlot
KSM likely would only target an embassy (for example, with cyanide). He’d go to hell if he poisoned a water supply serving children (and based on his statement before the tribunal he seems to ascribe to that view). (That is, if the theory of some that there is a supernatural being (”God”) proved to be true). So his direction to Majid Khan to research the subject perhaps related to poisoning localized water supplies, such as a supply serving a military base. Gadhan seems a major clown judging by his recent threat video and so perhaps they don’t have anyone in their inner circle who can reasonably interpret the hadiths relating to nonconventional weapons anymore. Or just choose to ignore the advice. But the islamic law learning specifically that it is haram (prohibited) to poison your enemies well, livestock, crops etc. — or kill women and children. — or noncombatants.
h. Poisoned Penpal: The Murder of Chechen Rebel Leader Ibn Khattab
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#IbnKhattab
If senior FBI officials had digested the importance of Ibn Khattab in 2001, they would have move forwarded with a FISA warrant of Moussaoui’s computer. Elzahabi came from Ibn Khattab in mid-August 2001. If his laptop had been accessed, perhaps 9/11 would have been avoided.
V. Opportunity: Tracking Potential Al Qaeda or Egyptian Islamic Jihad or Islamic Group Supporters
a. Fall 2001 Greenlight of Biological Attack By US-Based Operatives
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#AQFall2001ClaimReUSBasedBio
This claim of responsibility is fun. It claims that the greenlighted attack will be by operatives with access to US government and intelligence information. It was seized years ago but not released until 2006. Zawahiri discusses a different document at the same West Point website in his new video.
b. Know Not Just Your Enemy, But Who He Knew
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#KnowNotJustYourEnemy
One by one, they’ve been arrested.
c. Egyptian Scientist In The Library Researching Contaminants in Drinking Water
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxdu.html#AttaandAlMarabh
Serious secrecy on this issue, folks.
d. Kandahar souvenir: Hijacker Ahmed’s Blackened Leg Lesion
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxdu.html#leglesion
Ed has never mentioned the fact that Ahmed had just come from Kandahar where the extremely virulent anthrax was found.
e. Astonishing Aafia
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxdu.html#AstonishingAafia
An AUSA says Aafia would participate in an anthrax attack if asked.
f. Hoax Letters That May Fly As Real Thing
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxa.html#hoaxletters
Any bad guys in St. Petersburg area at the time? (Answer: Yes, to include Adnan El-Shukrijumah, for whom a BOLO was issued along with Aafia).
g. Access to the Ames Strain
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxa.html#AmesStrain
Of 16 labs in the US known to have Ames, authorities narrowed it genetically to 4 labs.
h. Made in the USA: The Cell Culture
AUTHORIZED PERSONNEL ONLY BEYOND THIS POINT
VI. The Sheiks and the Bioweaponeers
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaeda,anthraxa.html#SheikandtheBioweaponeers
An Iraqi actively helping Bin Laden’s Saudi sheik worked in the same buidling as Ken Alibek and former head of USAMRIID head, who is a prolific Ames anthrax researcher.
Ali Al-Timimi had a message delivered to members of Congress hand-delivered on the first anniversary of the anthrax mailings to Leahy and Daschle.
Although Iraqi, and the son of an attorney who worked at the Iraqi embassy, there is no reason to think he supported Saddam.
OTOH, even though LM’s theory that KSM was not KSM did not prove out, the conversation that should be occurring is what al-Hadi’s views and connection to Saddam are. Also, Ali’s.
My best guess: look for an indictment soon out of Newark — the US Attorney’s office there. There’s been an increase in “chatter” and Gonzales in January 2007 said that Mueller expected “some sort of resolution” in the “relatively near future.”
Having said all that, the person of LM’s particular interest is just about the most fascinating potential processor I’ve ever heard about. Geographically, skill set, a connection to WTC 1993 that LM perceives based on telephone records.
But the fellow’s training is from a PhD program at a US university, not Saddam’s state sponsored program. He has highly specialized relevant experience and the geography is right. But just because a person is Iraqi does not mean they support Saddam’s regime. He would have been recruited by Ayman or al-Hadi or Atef, not Iraqi intelligence. So part of her WTC 1993 book and analysis may well be a part of the Amerithrax solution, but there is no reason to think it supports an Iraq theory. There are many excellent candidates for an AQ-inspired processor and same for mailer. Hers is darn good — just not a connection to Saddam.
Having said all that, the person of LM’s particular interest is just about the most fascinating potential processor I’ve ever heard about. Geographically, skill set, a connection to WTC 1993 that LM perceives based on telephone records.
But the fellow’s training is from a PhD program at a US university, not Saddam’s state sponsored program. He has highly specialized relevant experience and the geography is right. But just because a person is Iraqi does not mean they support Saddam’s regime. He would have been recruited by Ayman or al-Hadi or Atef, not Iraqi intelligence. So part of her WTC 1993 book and analysis may well be a part of the Amerithrax solution, but there is no reason to think it supports an Iraq theory. There are many excellent candidates for an AQ-inspired processor and same for mailer. Hers is darn good — just not a connection to Saddam.
I assume that you are not ruling a Saddam connection out, correct? You seem to rule out AQ, yet Atta and others were looking at crop dusters. What do you think they would be spraying? There are some of us, including myself, that believe that there was a Saddam connection with AQ, including some involvement with the events of 9/11. The 9/11 Commission admitted that there was contact between Iraqi intelligence and AQ, but no operational relationship.
Kabar is correct. Given the nature of intelligence operations, it would be rash to rule out the possibility of highly compartmentalized coordination by Ayman or Atef with Iraqi intelligence.
But the documentary evidence shows that at least as of 1999, Ayman was not receiving any help from Saddam re weaponizing anthrax.
And when Sufaat briefed Hambali and Ayman in the Summer of 2001, there was still no indication.
And we know that the anthrax was grown in the Northeastern US.
And so if Iraqi intelligence helped, the processor was still located in the Northeastern US.
And we know Ayman had supporters who were highly skilled in the biological sciences in the Northeastern US, including one with a top security clearance who worked with the most qualified anthrax researchers in the world. The fact he was Iraqi is intriguing but not evidence of a Saddam connection without much more. The Salafists tended to hate Saddam.
As for the cropdusters, note that commercially available equipment can be used to disperse a dry powder. Osterholm and a NYT journalist explained this in a 2001 book on the subject — Osterholm ironically was just a few miles away at a UMinn biodefense center near where Moussaoui was located.
The technical difficulties BHR perceives because she thinks equipment made to spray 10 micron particles can’t spray particles in the 2-5 particles, is cold comfort. Similarly, in the book OVERBLOWN, the fellow argues that powderized anthrax would never settle. I really think that such folks have to sit down and show some common sense. Do they really think that even if just a 5 pound bag of the Daschle product were dispersed from the Empire State Building on a breezy day it wouldn’t be a huge event?
I think when we’re attacked next, the folks who argued for a half decade that some guy who allegedly once engaged in sex in the workplace — or some 1st grader — are going to look pretty silly. It was Gadahn, the spokesman in the recent threat video, who seemed silly. (It’s worth watching). But we have to remember that Ayman has proved that when he makes a threat, he intends to try to keep it.
As to what was actually contemplated to be dispersed by the cropdusters, KSM said that maybe it related to Hambali’s and Sufaat’s anthrax plans. (The planning was highly compartmentalized). In a June 2003 report, the CIA said it may have related to dispersal of a biological agent (i.e., anthrax).
But perhaps it instead related to plans to spray an insecticide with an additive to increase absorption into the skin that Midhat Mursi/Abu Khabab had developed. Actually, Ayman said he got the idea “at” Abu Khabab, which was the name of Mursi’ training camp. (So perhaps he got the idea from someone else). Mursi was a chemical engineer who graduated from the University of Alexandri in 1975. Ayman described the idea to Atef in a June 1999 email. The issue is very interesting to me because the only Rauf Ahmad I know who fits the description is a government ecotoxicologist, not a microbiologist. Although Ayman’s Rauf Ahmad infiltrated UK-biodefense conferences on dangerous pathogens, maybe he was permitted to go as an ecotoxicologist. This guy’s background is in the harm to humans of sprayed pesticides and he had just started his government job in March 1999 ... so his correspondence with Ayman in 1999 about being able to take a post-doc sabbatical seems to fit. I’ve seen his resume and nothing has persuaded me the ecotoxicologist, with whom I’ve corresponded, is not the fellow. He stopped communicating after an intial email response — after initally responding as if he was assuming I knew he was the guy — after he realized I had Rauf Ahmad’s letters ot Ayman and so he wouldn’t be able to snow me.
In short, maybe it was a chemical attack that the cropdusters were for. Using insecticide with an additive to increase absorption. The email was first revealed in a magazine article, I think, by WSJ Alan Cuillison who bought Ayman’s laptop from a looter. There were thousands of emails and none indicate or remotely suggest backing by Saddam. It was more along the lines of “Why didn’t you itemize the $300 in general expenses?” “What, you bought a new fax when you had two already?!”
Preparing anthrax in larger amounts raises many more problems and so the cropdusters were for something more easily done — such as a flying fuel bomb or spraying a chemical agent.
As for Laurie Myroie’s “War Against America” the key argumet was that one family — KSM’s relatives — could not have managed it all ... that they had to be (unrelated) Iraqi agents who adopted false legends in Kuwait.
What her argument failed to take into account was that it was not such a difficult thing to test the numerous nephews for DNA etc. A false legend would have been easily pierced upon the capture of KSM and his nephews.
If you check out her Bush vs the Belteway Page 162, Laurie suggests, among five things,:
"Do DNA tests of Yousef and Mohammed. That could establish, scientifically, whether or not they are related." I wonder if that has been done.
Well, what we know is that the CIA doesn’t credit her theory.
She was saying that the KSM captured was not the KSM who attended North Carolina when it would have been a pretty simple matter to prove or disprove by simply going there. Or calling around etc. I urged her to do so. She never did.
People should expend less energy in conveying that they are committed to a theory and more time spent in testing the hypothesis. (To LM’s credit, and the administration’s credit, they did send Woolsey to the British university looking for DNA relating to Ramzi Yousef. I believe that is what showed definitively the theory was mistaken).
Analogously, instead of telling me “the FBI knows who the suspects are”, BHR at some point might have had the NYT columnist NK call Dr. Hatfill who could have set them straight about a lot of mistaken ideas they had (e.g., the cabin in the woods etc.)
A Hatfill Theory is another example — like an Iraqi theory — that just didn’t hold up to scrutiny.
If you don’t study all theories simultaneously, you can’t judge the relative merits. If one sees that the letters contain block writing, someone may very well adopt the theory they were written by a child if you don’t know the 9/11 plotters had a parallel plan to use weaponized anthrax against the US.
But there’s no reason to slam folks when a hypothesis proves mistaken. Responding to the threat requires collaborative analysis where all theories are explored and put to the test with an open mind.
Life is too short not to put our own theories about life to the test.
For example, Mazen Mokhtar, who mirrored the unofficial Al Qaeda website azzam.com, was recently charged with income tax evasion. Authorities searched his computers in 2004. He lived 15 minutes from the 10 Nassau St. Princeton mailbox. It’s almost a straight shot down Route 1. Before 9/11, while at a different location, he lived just 6 miles, although because it was residential streets, it took 15 minutes but was from the other direction. Do authorities suspect him of being the mailer? He was connected to Babar Ahmad (the webmaster of azzam.com) who was connected to KSM. It was KSM who confessed to being head of a cell planning anthrax attacks against US targets. It was KSM who sent Jafar the Pilot and al-Hindi to research NYC helicopters. Personally, my vote is that someone does not poop where they eat. That is, you don’t mail from the mailbox near where you live. But clearly Ed’s argument in his Al Qaeda section that AQ could not have done it because they hijackers were “dead, dead, dead” is silly. Moreover, his argument in that section that if there were others, the FBI would be talking about them, well, he’s just turning a deaf ear. (See, e.g., Jdey, Elzahabi, al-Marabh, Elbaneh etc. ) Moreover, the nature of these confidential investigations is to NOT talk about it.
For example, they let azzam.com stay up mirrored for a year while they tried to gather leads.
I’m a fan of Ed Epstein’s approach — in seeking to prove or disprove a Prague meeting — he went to Prague.
Just like the FBI, I don't rule anyone out as long as the case is still open.
That said, I think the idea that Saddam sent the anthrax letters is more ridiculous than the idea that al Qaeda sent the anthrax letters. It makes even less sense.
How can it make ANY sense to ANYONE that either Saddam OR al Qaeda would include medical advice in warning letters to the media to make sure the recipients were not harmed? And the person who sent the letters also took other precautions to do minimal harm!
Then, when those warning letters failed to warn anyone, three weeks later the culprit sent out another warning, this time telling the recipients that the powder was anthrax so that they could take proper precautions. (And they DID take precautions, so no one in Daschle's office was infected.)
All the victims were clearly unintended vicitims. Since when are ANY of al Qaeda's or Saddam's victims unintended vicitims?
yet Atta and others were looking at crop dusters. What do you think they would be spraying?
Atta and his fellow 9/11 terrorists were ALL DEAD for a week at the time of the first mailing, and they were ALL DEAD for a MONTH at the time of the second mailing. So, what Atta was doing is immaterial. The attacks were not done with crop dusters.
Besides, the idea of spreading around a few grams of anthrax with a crop duster aircraft is just plain ridiculous. You'd need large amounts to do any real damage. And if they had the large amounts that they would need to use a crop duster, what did they do with it? How come they didn't use it in an actual attack?
The facts say that the crop duster plan was apparently an early thought about how to fly an aircraft into a skyscraper. There are reports that they were thinking of filling the rear of the planes with fuel tanks to turn them into flying bombs. But, as we saw, they apparently found a better and more lethal way to fly airplanes into skyscrapers.
There are some of us, including myself, that believe that there was a Saddam connection with AQ,
The operative word is "believe." You can believe whatever you want to believe. But you should be aware that the FACTS say your beliefs are absurd.
Funny. 05 27 2007
‘Mylroie earned a doctorate in Political Science from Harvard University and was employed in the school’s Government Department. She was an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College, and an Iraq consultant for Bill Clinton during his 1992 campaign for President.
She is now an adjunct fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.’
Her background as you state it doesn’t fill me with confidence.
“And we know that the anthrax was grown in the Northeastern US.”
False. This story has been dismissed.
See here : http://www.tnr.com/PDF/spine_anthraxletters.pdf
The reason a warning would be given in connection with the use of nonconventional weapon is because it is required by the hadiths. The seized documents confirm that Zawahiri was very concerned about the islamic rules governing warfare. See 1998 letters soliciting opinions from EIJ leaders re killing civilians. Ed curiously does not know why anthrax was sent on October 6-9 after the denail of bail on October 5 of the EIJ shura leader who managed OBL’s farm in Sudan. The leader had been the subject of anthrax threat in February 2001, which is why a study was done of the effectiveness of mailed anthrax. Ed also questions why the perps would ever give a second warning. Yet, Ayman has given a warning on average of 3.7 times a week in 2007. The fact that Gadahn has a new video out providing a warning does not in way mean that there will not be another attack.
c. Requirement Under Laws of Jihad of Warning Before Using Nonconventional Weapons
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze43v8m/alqaedaanthraxay.html#RequirementofWarning
As for the choice of targets, the military wing of the EIJ used the same targeting in 1997 when they sent letter bombs to NYC and DC newspapers and people in symbolic positions in connection with the detention of the blind sheik.
A majority of EIJ leaders are doctors, lawyers and engineers — they tend to be pious and seek to scrupulously apply the islamic rules of warfare which have been the subject of entire books and extensive debate among the EIJ and Islamic Group deep thinkers. Ed has never read any of these writings on how nonconventional weapons may be used because it is easier to spend the next 5 years repeating the same “they would never provide a warning” jingoistic approach when all the experts (like Scheuer) emphasize just the opposite.
As for why there was not a follow-up attack using anthrax...
by who exactly, Ed?
Top planner Atef, who had a bomb land on his head in November?
Sufaat who was captured in December 2001?
Rauf Ahmad who was captured in December 2001?
Hambali who was captured?
KSM who was captured?
Abdul Qadus Khan who was captured?
Aafia who is believed by her family to have been captured?
Sufaat’s assistants Barq and Wahdan who were captured?
US operatives who were arrested?
The anthrax program was tightly compartmentalized at the highest levels causing continuity problems the minute Atef was killed. Actually, there were continuity problems as soon as Afghanistan was invaded and they had to tear down the labs.
As Tenet explained, the anthrax operatives in various countries were either killed, captured, or otherwise neutralized. ... or so the CIA hopes.
Ed’s argument, by analogy in the Summer of 2001 would be: Al Qaeda has not attempted an attack in the US since 1993 — so clearly they are not responsible for that 1993 attack.
There was a sharp ongoing debate among EIJ policy-makers about the role of violence, permissibility of using nonconventional weapons (e.g., poisons). The consensus was that if an attack is not carefully calibrated, they can have a public relations debacle as occurred with the massacre of tourists in Luxor.
The reason Ed’s argument is stillborn is that he knows nothing about Ayman Zawahiri, EIJ etc. and makes arguments about what Ayman would do in a total vacuum, unfettered by any knowledge.
Ed, start with the reading list Ron Paul gave Giulani as a start.
http://www.anthraxandalqaeda.com
In considering “why would EIJ provide a second warning,” one need only go to their writings or the historical precedent. (There were two waves in the al Hayat letter bombs to NYC and DC newspapers and then people in symbolic positions).
The publication bearing most on the issue is one writing by Egyptian Saif al-Adil and other jihadi manuals written by senior EIJ people that provides practical jihad training on letter bombs. Tenet says he was involved in CBRN planning. The publication is called Mu’askar al-Battar. He explains how to set up a secure operational cell, with a separate team for command and control, reconnaissance, preparation and execution. So it is not all surprising that the processor would not know the mailer etc. or that they would not know who procured the Ames strain, or who procured the equipment.
Abu Miqdad al-Falastini’s Harb al-Ightiyalat specializes in war through assassination and is dedicated to Bin Laden and al-Zarqawi. Chapters include letter bombs and the use of poisons. (I’m not talking about the broad brush Encyclopedia of Jihad we’ve all seen). The Jamestown Foundation’s Stephen Ulph’s seems expert on the topic. (See writings compiled in Unmasking Terror, published by the Jamestown Foundation.)
Saif al-Adil publicly contacted the press after the al-Hayat letter bombs and said the Vanguards of Conquest was not responsible (as the FBI suspected they were). He was chastened by a London spokesman who said in so many words, “Shut up, Saif. If you want to be part of our really cool named group, and not just the EIJ generally, then you need to submit the proper application and we’ll consider it. They then separately denied responsibility. Just as they did for the 1998 embassy bombings, 9/11 etc. Big surprise. They murder people and then they lie and deny they did it. (The London spokesman is just one of the many who has been arrested),
I think the one thing we should all have learned from reading about the anthrax attacks of 2001 is that there are so-called "experts" with impressive credentials on all sides of the issue, and some of them seem like total lunatics.
Right Winger Laurie Mylroie's credentials are easily matched by Left Winger Barbara Hatch Rosenberg, who led the country astray by first pointing at the Bush Administration as being behind the anthrax attacks, and then by campaigning for six months to get the FBI (and the media) to focus on Dr. Hatfill as being the specific culprit.
As you can see from the voluminous postings by "ZacandPook", when you start with a belief you can always find some way to rationalize the facts to fit your belief.
Thanks for the information, I had forgotten some it, some of it I’m seeing for the first time courtesy of the link.
Drzz, the isotope analysis explained on the webpages of the scientists doing the research for the CIA and FBI and published in peer-reviewed scientific publications stands unrebutted, as does NBC’s reporting on the issue.
I consider both Dany and Stuart — the authors of the article you link — friends. Stuart especially is a very frequent correspondent. I’m aware of the sentence you refer to and asked Stuart and Dany about it then. Their casual dismissal is in no way justified. While an eminent scientist, Stuart has no basis to “dismiss” it as unreliable — and certainly a single conclusory sentence does not suffice. (I don’t have the sentence in front of me but it was merely stating the conclusion).
I wrote Stuart on the subject of this thread about 10 minutes ago) and he very actively reads Free Republic anthrax threads. I’d be glad to ask him how he reconciles the article with the finding reported by NBC, the webpages by the scientists performing the research for the FBI and CIA It’s an important point you raise which requires that Dany rationalize that, for example, Iraq just shared the know-how. (A perfectly reasonable alternative).
Indeed, note that the article expressly credits that it was AQ operationally. And you know for a “fact” a US operative was in the US to mail the letter. As to the issue of isotopes, investigator producer Jim P. at NBC has senior level sources at the DOJ. Dany, while he looks forward coming to the US, does not. Stuart, while extremely knowledgeable about the anthrax mailings and while he has excellent sources, would not say he has any basis to dismiss the NBC report in terms of its sourcing. He just mistakenly perceives that isotope analysis is not reliable without having read the CIA-funded studies published relating to this investigation. I’ve exchanged thousands of email with Stuart over the years on anthrax. He’s free to go to the webpages on the isotope research and address it. Or tell me I’m wrong, publicly or privately. In fact, I double dog dare him. I would gladly repost his scientific discussion of the point if he wants to avoid direct posting. But, please, let’s not have a cursory single sentence with no scientific citation in support be allowed to subvert the real science of the CIA and FBI funded studies on this precise subject — complete with nifty colored maps.
Those maps also exclude New Jersey and Ohio — kicking Ed’s theory while it was already down and out.
Of course, drzz, by all means, if you have substantive learning on the issue of the isotope analysis — or if anyone else does — by all means, I’m all ears. There are entire webpages and at least 5 peer-reviewed articles explaining the science as it specifically relates to this investigation.
Drzz,
I’m not a scientist, but since it would take a triple dog dare to flush Dr. J out for a discussion, let me attempt an explanation of the issue.
The FBI scientists have been able to distinguish between water isotopes ratios in the anthrax. Brian Williams reports that investigators have told NBC that the water used to make the spores came from the Northeastern United States. researchers have been able to establish that anthrax grown in water in the Northeastern United States is distinguishable from anthrax grown in water from the Southeast and Pacific Northwest. In one published anthrax study, researchers grew Bacillus subtilis, a harmless bacteria that resembles Bacillus anthracis, using local water from five different U.S. cities. The scientists were able to distinguish those grown in various cities. The method can be used to narrow the number of possible origins of the water based on the number of oxygen and hydrogen isotopes. Similarly, a press release announced in September 2003 that University of Maryland researchers have developed a technique to help the FBI track the origins of deadly anthrax spores by identifying the medium used to grow it. The FBI asked Maryland professor Catherine Fenselau to turn her mass spectrometry lab to the forensic task of sleuthing how bacillus spores, such as anthrax, are prepared.
Interviewer Kestenbaum said: “Ehleringer is now creating a map showing how the isotope ratios of water vary anthrax was grown, it may rule some places out.” As defined by the Census Bureau, the Northeast region of the United States covers nine states: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Vermont. A scientist explained the research in an NPR interview in 2004.
I infer from the NBC report that from the isotope ratios, authorities believe either that the anthrax was grown in one of the yellow (or perhaps light green) areas, but not one of the dark green, blue or red areas. The yellow swath includes much of the Northeastern United States — places like Syracuse, NY but also places like and also Ann Arbor and Minneapolis. If that is the isotope ratio range, Islamabad and Baghdad can be excluded. Pretty much all foreign locations apparently can be excluded, along with places with comparable oxygen isotope ratios such as Central New Jersey, Maryland and Ohio. Locales with such excludable ratios include Pakistan (Lahore), Iraq (Baghdad), and Singapore. Whereas pretty much only the adjacent parts of Canada above Northeastern US (e.g., parts of Ontario and Quebec) match the yellow swath that the scientists found distinguishing. The authors of one of the key articles noted that they couldn’t distinguish between North Carolina and Ohio — the dark green. Similarly, they can’t distinguish between Central New Jersey and North Carolina (again, the dark green). The key studies in the peer reviewed literature indicate that they were funded by the Central Intelligence Agency.
In mid-2002, it was reported that that scientists have determined that anthrax spores mailed to Capitol Hill last fall were made less than two years ago before being mailed. Moreover, contrary to what has often been implied or assumed, the technique to weaponize the anthrax used in the Fall 2001 was not the one used by the US Army in weaponizing anthrax in the 1950s. William Patrick’s process for weaponizing anthrax involved freeze drying and chemical processing whereas it was the process contemplated by Al Qaeda that involved spraydrying. “We made little freeze-dried pellets of anthrax,” Donald Schattenberg explained, “then we ground them down with a high-speed colloid mill.” The finding cast doubt on the hypothesis that the spores could have been stolen from a lab a long time ago or taken from Saddam’s old program.
The Washington Post quoted biologist Jennie Hunter-Cevera, president of the University of Maryland’s Biotechnology Institute, who said analysts didn’t necessarily have to use radiocarbon dating, which determines the age of an object by the rate at which the radioactive carbon 14 isotope decays in organic materials. Instead, Hunter-Cevera said “isotopic” analysis could compare the radioactivity ratios from the isotopes of several elements to get an age. The Washington Post noted: “Carbon 14 dating is sometimes suspect for recent objects because the atomic testing of the 1950s created higher levels of carbon 14 in the air while increased use of fossil fuels has enriched the air with more inert carbon.”
Dr. J is most well-known for his firmly held views on silica.
The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology detected silica. The Daily News (New York) reported on October 30, 2001
[USAMRIID Major General John] Parker did disclose that the anthrax in question contained silica, a common substance found in sand and quartz.
“I don’t know what the significance of it is,” Parker said.
One expert said the presence of silica is significant, but he declined to say why, citing national security concerns.
“I don’t think I want to give people - terrorists - any information to help them, said Dr. Charles Bailey, a scientist at Advanced Biosystems Inc. and former commander of the Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases.
Bailey and other scientists said one key avenue of investigation for the Army is the precise genetic makeup of the anthrax.
I think Dr. J has done a great public service by arguing the silica point.
(Without going into the detail, there is a patent filed by the fellow who inherited Al-Timimi’s telephone number that addresses how the silica is removed... leaving a concentrated agent).
I just think that when you have someone working with Bin Laden’s sheik a few doors down from the former USAMRIID head quoted above, you don’t have to engage in speculation about Saddam. You instead can call up Dr. Bailey and ask: “Is it true that this supporter of the Taliban was a spit wad’s distance from you and it didn’t come out for a half decade?” The discussion instead is about a years-old civil case, etc.
http://www.anthraxandalqaeda.com
Note as to the method of weaponization, in the post above, I reasoned that the product was made using a spray dryer. That was based on Dr. Alibek’s thoughts in 2002 — and others like Dr. Spertzel in the video you’ve posted who have said the same thing.
Now Dr. Alibek is of the view that it was made using a fluidized bed dryer, although I don’t believe he has published the view yet. (Look for a Biohazard 2).
I don’t have an opinion on the issue, not being a scientist. I always liked the spraydryer suggestion because I thought that would explain the charge — the Bucci minispraydryer technical rep once told me that the charge was unavoidable because of the velocity through the nozzle.
But I’m inclined to credit Dr. Alibek as the expert.
I meant only to emphasize that there is a consensus among the scientists that the 1950s process of “milling” is not involved (for reasons Ed explains well on his webpage).
Dr. Alibek suggests the charge results from processing in the mailsorting equipment.
Dr. J suggests that it results from a corona discharge.
I’m sure the FBI has considered other possibilities.
It was Dr. Alibek who first told me that the FBI suspected Al-Timimi.
In terms of credentials and beliefs, let’s consider the resume entry: “Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation.”
Director Mueller said in a press conference on the Amerithrax investigation in October 2005 as to the FBI’s theory: “Remember 9/11. Remember Oklahoma City.” He explained that they had travelled to six out of seven continents. Ed, did you ever link that press conference where he said that? If not, why not?
Or in terms of credentials and the belief, let’s consider the resume entry: “Director, Central Intelligence Agency.”
Former Director Tenet in 2007 said:
“The most startling revelation from this intelligence success story was that the anthrax program had been developed in parallel to 9/11 planning. As best as we could determine, al-Zawahiri’s project had been wrapped up in the summer of 2001, when the al-Qaida deputy, along with Hambali, were briefed over a week by Sufaat on the progress he had made to isolate anthrax. The entire operation had been managed at the top of al-Qai’da with strict compartmentalization. Having completed this phase of his work, Sufaat fled Afghanistan in December 2001 and was captured by authorities trying to sneak back into Malaysia. Rauf Ahmad was detained by Pakistani authorities in December 2001. Our hope was that these and our many other actions had neutralized the anthrax threat, at least temporarily.”
—Former CIA Director George Tenet in his May 2007 book Center of the Storm
The documents suggest that that is one reason why scientists who knew Dr. Hatfill suspected him. It was "obvious" to those people and the people at ABC that the anthrax mailings were a domestic crime.
My conversations with Dr. Hatfill in August of 2002 indicated the same thing. He's a Right Winger, so he naturally suspects foreigners. (Left Wingers suspect the Bush Administration.)
The documents are available on my site
Ed
As for resume entry and belief, here’s another on meaning of word “domestic” —
Attorney General Ashcroft once explained that an “either-or” approach is not useful. The media has tended to overlook the fact that when the FBI uses the word “domestic” the word includes a US-based, highly-educated supporter of the militant islamists.
As for proving the case of using isotope ratios, the latest learning is in the April 2007 on the forensics that will be used.
Appl. Environ. Microbiol. doi:10.1128/AEM.02906-06
Copyright (c) 2007, American Society for Microbiology and/or the Listed Authors/Institutions. All Rights Reserved.
“Stable Isotope Ratios and the Forensic Analysis of Microorganisms (pdf of full text available upon request)
Helen W. Kreuzer-Martin* and Kristin H. Jarman
Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, 999 Battelle Blvd, Richland, WA 99352
Abstract
In the aftermath of the anthrax letters of 2001, researchers have been exploring various analytical signatures for the purpose of characterizing the production environment of microorganisms. One such signature is stable isotope ratios, which in heterotrophs are a function of nutrient and water sources. Here we discuss the use of stable isotope ratios in microbial forensics, using as a database the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen stable isotope ratios of 247 separate cultures of B. subtilis 6051 spores produced on a total of 32 different culture media. In the context of using stable isotope ratios as a signature for sample matching, we present an analysis of variation between individual samples, between cultures produced in tandem, and between cultures produced in the same medium but at different times. Additionally, we correlate the stable isotope ratios of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen for growth medium nutrients or water with those of spores and show examples of how these relationships can be used to exclude nutrient or water samples as possible growth substrates for specific cultures.”
The article references this link. www.waterisotopes.org
That April 2007 article study above cites another landmark study
published March 2007 titled “Stable isotope ratios of tap water in the
contiguous United States” in “Water Resources Research, Vol. 43 (pdf
available upon request). The study was funded by the “federal
government.” The raw data survey results have been embargoed “by the
federal government.” ( I believe the agency would usually be
identified). In other water isotope ratio studies the funding agency
was identified as the Central Intelligence Agency or whatever agency it
was. (It varied). Perhaps this March 2007 study was funded by the
Department of Justice/Federal Bureau of Investigation and was done
specifically for the purpose of laying the scientific groundwork of a
prosecution in Amerithrax. While the Maryland scientist in the study
was looking at the nutrients in the culture, the Utah scientist in this
study is looking at the tap water. The DOJ/FBI likely hopes to put all
the data together with the more familiar reasons to suspect someone
(means, motive, modus operandi and opportunity), and put on a case that
to a moral certainty proves it was committed by the perp(s) — where
otherwise, absent the scientific evidence, there is a lack of a
“smoking gun.” Here, based on this new science, there apparently is
thought to be a smoking petri dish.
I’ve tested many dozens of water samples from around the Northeastern
US for unrelated public health purposes, and I certainly accept that
there are real differences that can be duplicated through scientific
methods. For example, last year, I got most stores throughout the
Northeast United States to recall their contaminated store-brand water
(the name varied with the chain) by having Wegmans duplicate my results
showing it was contaminated. The supplier (a Northeastern US spring)
was disputing my results, saying that their testing showed no problem.
Wegmans, demonstrating how a responsible corporation acts,
independently had the water tested and confirmed my findings, taking
their samples at random from among their 71 stores. (I had an
entirely different experience with Coke’s Mexican distributor in
connection with testing for arsenic).
The March 2007 isotope ratio study explains: “Here we present results
from the first national-scale spatiotemporal survey of stable isotopes
in tap water. The new data show that tap water samples exhibit high
levels of spatially coherent isotope ratio variation that can be
related to commonality in patterns of water source and
postprecipitation history for water resources in different parts of
the country. A strong relationship exists between tap water isotope
ratios and those of annually averaged local precipitation (as estimated
by geostatistical modeling), but robust differences between tap water
and precipitation isotope ratios also exist in many parts of the United
States. These patterns can be related to regional tendencies in water
resource selection and water history, including patterns likely related
to high-altitude dominated sources, seasonally based recharge, and
evaporative loss from natural or artificial surface reservoirs. Our
data provide the first evidence that large, spatially distributed
isotope sample networks offer the potential to identify and
characterize the magnitude and regional relevance of such processes
within complex human-hydrological systems. ... We synthesize our data
as a set of predictive tap water isotope ratio maps that, when
interpreted with respect for the limitations of the underlying data,
should benefit future water resources research efforts as well as
fields such as ecology and forensic sciences where understanding of
large-scale patterns of hydrological isotope ratio variation is
increasingly important.
I am not scientifically trained, but my understanding is that by
looking at the Oxygen, Hydrogen and Deuterium geospatial distribution,
you can achieve more precise geospatial location of where the water
came from. So for example, the deuterium map might be relied upon to
eliminate an ambiguity left by the light blue/light green range of the”
oxygen and hydrogen maps.
Bottom-line: there’s no reason yet to doubt the NBC report that the isotope ratios point to growth of the culture in the Northeastern United States. My lay reading of the maps and various studies, however, suggests that it was not grown in New Jersey, Ohio or Maryland.
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