Skip to comments.Soldiers Want a Bigger Bang
Posted on 05/30/2007 7:12:47 AM PDT by Sergio
Nearly 80 percent of Soldiers said in a recent survey they are satisfied with their weapons, though almost half recommended a replacement for the standard-issued M9 pistol or ammunition with more stopping power.
Additionally, nearly 30 percent of Soldiers in the December 2006 survey, conducted on behalf of the Army by the Center for Naval Analyses, said the M4 carbine should be replaced or more deadly ammunition fielded.
"Across weapons, Soldiers have requested weapons and ammunition with more stopping power/lethality," the report said. (excerpt)
IIRC, Xlinton x42 had about half a million of the M14 surplus scrapped. The military has already pulled and upgraded most of the remainder for use as Designated Marksman weapons. Some new Springfield M1A's are supposedly being purchased to fill the gap.
I seem to recall the argument (bogus) of the tubling bullet theory...
US forces have been underpowered in terms of standard issue firearms, using the simple requirement 1 hit = 1 target neutralized, since at least vietnam.
Reality is, if your slug isn’t big enough to neutralize an enemy with 1 hit to the torso/chest (ie they aren’t getting back up and limping away) your weapon is underpowered.
Clearly our standard issue has not been able to pass that test in 30+ years. But the theory that a bullet tumbling even though smaller would do as much damage was the excuse given I believe for these decisions back in the day.
The problem is not the 9mm.
The problem is that they are using ball ammo—The worst choice out of all the available 9mm cartridge designs!
The top 9mm loads (e.g. Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p+, Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+) are just as effective as the top loads in .45ACP, .357SIG, and .40S&W.
But these are all modern JHP designs. Out military is not allowed to use them.
I've heard that several times.
I never wanted to wound anybody. ever...
In fact I wanted to turn anybody that shot at me into mist. I'd worry about the 4-5 other guys later.
Then I'd try to kill all of them also. Especially if they were shooting or talking or looking or breathing....
I've been told that and might have heard talk among men who shot or were about to shoot men, and not one time did I ever hear, "That mother-f#cker over there with his head up...yeah, that f#cker.... wound him, so that 4-5 other guys will have to take care of him."
From what I may recall, it went more like "Over there, yeah you dumba@@...over to your left... see where the tree and that bush are... yeah, yeah, yeah..." then about 4 or 10 bursts and some grenades if you've got them... you go poking around and sure enough, you got one or two or even if you're lucky 3 guys in the process of dying or holding their breath forever.
Now I'm not saying that wounding a guy isn't a bad thing. But I can pretty much bet you several rounds of Shiner Bock that there isn't one Marine that I know of that's been in a firefight of any length.... 10 seconds to several hours that wanted to wound somebody.
My favorite weapon you ask. A radio and maybe a laser. Cause I can't carry 500lbs of explosive to wound anybody...hahahahahahahaha...just kidding.
Up close a shotgun is real nice. Farther away I like something with a scope and night vision.... up close a .45 and then a real sharp knife when all else fails.
Oh yeah... my elbows, knees, feet and hands if I really screw up and can't find a big piece of wood or steel.
This is only my opinion and I could be wrong.
“I think the full metal jacket/varmit round was a good concept for fighting against national armies. Against people who see it as their obligation to die trying to kill with their last breath, that concept is outdated.”
We should look back in our own history to answer this challenge.
We developed the M1911 .45 ACP for the very reason we need it again today. Fighting against the Moro guerillas in Mindanao. Muslims then, Muslims now. .45 then, .45 forever. We should never have gone back to using popguns as a backup weapon.
Didn’t the military adopt the .45 ACP about a hundred years ago to replace the .38 Special, which was found to be inadequate in the Phillipines? It looks like we’re re-inventing the wheel. (And I’d take a .38 over the 9mm any day.)
.45 with 185 gr bullet, check
hates pop guns, check
would think it would be neat to have a .44 Desert Eagle for the attention and the off chance it would hit it's target, check
wouldn't use a pistol if over 50 feet away in combat.... unless really freaking out, check...
hey you could be my friend and I agree with everything you wrote
It's on me, brother
Good answer Joseph..you are spot on.
TRIPLE GATLING GUN!?!?!?!
I thought just one was enough stopping power!
Bothering you, is there any video of that? I’m intrigued not only by the tons of lead, but the sound that thing must make.
'Cuz even women can fire it accurately.
Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.
You wanna lug around 210 rounds (infantryman's basic load) of 30-30?! It would leave little margin for grenades, mortar rounds and water....
I'm sorry I can't hear your post.>>>hahahahaha. my head is still shaking...and rattling
I wanna hear it!
It's meant to be uncomfortable when it enters the body. ;-)
“Because the object of shooting an enemy (in warfare) isnt to kill target, but to wound it. “
But, dead enemy combatants don’t shoot back.
The cartridge has reached it's limit (especially in shorter barrels) with the 77 grain ammunition issued to the SDM's. Anything heavier can't be accelerated quickly enough through a short tube.
The projectiles will also be at the limits of spin-stabilization out of a 1:7 barrel. As a heavier bullet gets longer, more spin is required to keep it stable. It's been a while since I did the math but I believe the heavy bullets are turning something a bit over 300,000 rpm.
There are quite a few good bullet / cartridge combinations in the 6.5 - 6.8 mm range that could be made to work on the same platform. However, I doubt that the average soldier could make use of the extra horsepower.
I decided to see what an 8mm Mauser from WWII would do shooting some Yugoslav ammo. I set up 6 2X4s in a row in front of a walnut tree and fired. The 8mm Mauser penetrated all 6 2X4s and went into the tree. Draw your own conclusions.
An old saying. We know that one round will kill a man. We don’t know how many it will take to scare him to death.
Recall the definition of gun control.
Thanks for the informative response! It’s one of the great things about FR.
How so? BTW, I take it you didn't get my sarcasm, but I'm still curious as to your take on this.
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