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I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range. Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.
1 posted on 05/30/2007 7:12:49 AM PDT by Sergio
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To: Sergio

I don’t think H&K would mind a huge contract to manufacture millions of .40cal pistols for the military.

Probably the USP, USP Compact (which is what I would choose), or a tactical something.


2 posted on 05/30/2007 7:15:43 AM PDT by wastedyears ( I deleted my tagline by accident =()
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To: Sergio
I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range. Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

I think the rationale was put in terms of weight and number of rounds carried. The lesson from Vietnam was that most rounds aren't even aimed -- it was several thousand rounds expended for each person hit. Also, the thinking at the time was that fighting was done at relatively close range, so the heavier bullet (and its longer range) was not necessary.

3 posted on 05/30/2007 7:16:31 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Sergio

I’m thinking an HK 416 in 6.5mm and a 1911 style .45 screw NATO interchangeability.


4 posted on 05/30/2007 7:20:16 AM PDT by NY.SS-Bar9 (DR #1692)
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To: Sergio

I think the full metal jacket/varmit round was a good concept for fighting against national armies. Against people who see it as their obligation to die trying to kill with their last breath, that concept is outdated.


5 posted on 05/30/2007 7:22:29 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: Sergio
.30 calibre is good, but the .30-30 is too short a range.

Having said that, I was happy with my M16A2 Service Rifle, 6137326, on Parris Island in 1989. Shot Expert. Of course, I never had to use her in an antipersonnel situation.

I agree about the Beretta. That thing's just way too big for most people, and the mandated hardball ammo is ineffective. When I was in the Corps, the MPs still carried 1911s.

6 posted on 05/30/2007 7:22:45 AM PDT by real saxophonist (The fact that you play tuba doesn't make you any less lethal. -USMC bandsman in Iraq)
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To: Sergio
AK-47. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every mother------ in the room, accept no substitutes.

7 posted on 05/30/2007 7:22:54 AM PDT by Thrusher ("Only the dead have seen the end of war.")
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To: Sergio
OK - repeat after me. Women can not fire anything with bigger stopping power. I don’t care what the logic is to your argument - you can’t get around this PC fact...
8 posted on 05/30/2007 7:23:45 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: Sergio


If they can make one of these light enough, I think the soldiers would be satisfied.
9 posted on 05/30/2007 7:25:38 AM PDT by LIConFem (Thompson 2008. Lifetime ACU Rating: 86 -- Hunter 2008 (VP) Lifetime ACU Rating: 92)
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To: Sergio

Because the object of shooting an enemy (in warfare) isn’t to kill target, but to wound it. A wounded soldier is supposed to tie up 4-5 other soldiers, medics, etc.
Doesn’t work when dealing with terrorists, of course. They don’t have the same support requirements real armies do.
Also, the 7.62mm NATO is uncomfortable for some smaller soldiers. And you can carry more ammo.


10 posted on 05/30/2007 7:26:51 AM PDT by Little Ray (Rudy Guiliani: If his wives can't trust him, why should we?)
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To: Sergio
Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

30-30 is too low on velocity and might have trouble punching through body armor. Something in the 6.5mm range would probably be good; more stopping power than a .223 but still lighter than .308 or .30-06. Of course, I'm quite fond of the 6.5mm Swedish Mauser, so I might be biased, but it seems to me that a medium sized rifle shooting a similar cartridge might be just the ticket.

9mm is not a good handgun round for combat and never has been. The 1911 should've never been retired. As for submachine guns, the old M3 grease gun probably works as well modern submachine guns at a fraction of the cost.
11 posted on 05/30/2007 7:29:42 AM PDT by JamesP81 (Isaiah 10:1 - "Woe to those who enact evil statutes")
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To: Sergio
I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range.

Lighter, can carry more rounds. Of course we decided this when the M16 did full auto, so our soldiers needed more rounds. I say one direction or the other: Go totally light weight with the ability to reliably put 10 rounds in the target in less than a heartbeat as in the P-90, or give the soldiers fewer, but much bigger, rounds that will take down anybody with one shot.

12 posted on 05/30/2007 7:30:34 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Sergio

How about a 10mm? Of course, it would be too powerful for FBI agents, but it would sure kick ass in Iraq.


13 posted on 05/30/2007 7:31:55 AM PDT by umgud ("When seconds count, the police are just 10 minutes away!")
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To: Sergio

I’ve noticed the lack of 9mm knockdown power in video games. It’s a problem. ;)


14 posted on 05/30/2007 7:35:13 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: Sergio
They need the .308 for rifle and a .45 with a 185grn-200grn bullet. The .308 is just the best I don't care how heavy the ammo is. The .45 is the best, but the 230FMJ is too heavy. You can actually watch it fall as you shoot it. Course, if you are shooting farther than 50 feet or so, why are you using a pistola anyway? The 200grn bullet is better than a .40 cal, IMHO, and goes farther and flatter. My fav handload is a 185HP, but the Geneva convention says NO to HP's. If it wasn't a HP, I don't know if it could remain 185grn.

I've also wondered if the .44 Desert Eagle could be considered for widespread use. Prolly too expensive, but it would be an attention getter. Even the .357 is mo better than a 9mm. Frankly I'd rather have a .38 than 9mm. You can tell I don't have much respect for pop guns in war.

19 posted on 05/30/2007 7:50:07 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: Sergio

We were accomodating the Europeans and NATO.
Smarter thing at thatpoint in time would have to used a weapon that would accept ammo of the Wasaw Pact/Soviets.
We are NOT noted for doing smart things.


20 posted on 05/30/2007 7:57:40 AM PDT by Gideon Reader (DEMOCRATS: Not quite American, and proud of it! Palestinians are,...well Palestinian.)
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To: Sergio

They need to change to the 6.8SPC caliber round like theyve been playing with forever...its had some devastating results against the Talibanskis in Afghanistan.


22 posted on 05/30/2007 7:59:41 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Master of Sinanju (emeritus))
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To: Sergio

.338 Lapua.


26 posted on 05/30/2007 8:06:48 AM PDT by Lazamataz (JOIN THE NRA: https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp)
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To: Sergio

I seem to recall the argument (bogus) of the tubling bullet theory...

US forces have been underpowered in terms of standard issue firearms, using the simple requirement 1 hit = 1 target neutralized, since at least vietnam.

Reality is, if your slug isn’t big enough to neutralize an enemy with 1 hit to the torso/chest (ie they aren’t getting back up and limping away) your weapon is underpowered.

Clearly our standard issue has not been able to pass that test in 30+ years. But the theory that a bullet tumbling even though smaller would do as much damage was the excuse given I believe for these decisions back in the day.


42 posted on 05/30/2007 8:49:38 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: Sergio

The problem is not the 9mm.

The problem is that they are using ball ammo—The worst choice out of all the available 9mm cartridge designs!

The top 9mm loads (e.g. Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p+, Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+) are just as effective as the top loads in .45ACP, .357SIG, and .40S&W.

But these are all modern JHP designs. Out military is not allowed to use them.


43 posted on 05/30/2007 8:49:42 AM PDT by joseph20
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To: Sergio
I have always wondered why we decided on a "varmit" round for targets in the "white tail" deer weight range.

'Cuz even women can fire it accurately.

Seems like something in the 30.30 class would be more appropriate.

You wanna lug around 210 rounds (infantryman's basic load) of 30-30?! It would leave little margin for grenades, mortar rounds and water....

51 posted on 05/30/2007 9:09:08 AM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (Banning Bread and Circuses is the New Bread and Circuses....)
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