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The JFK files
The Boston Globe ^ | May 28, 2007 | David Mehegan, Globe Staff

Posted on 06/01/2007 5:36:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5

A storied former prosecutor scrutinizes one of the most debated crimes in American history The murder of President John F. Kennedy has provoked by far more suspicion, argument, obsession, and especially book-publishing than any similar event in American history. Now famed lawyer and true-crime writer Vincent Bugliosi has produced what he hopes will be the book to exceed all others. "Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy" may do that, in weight (5.3 pounds) as well as content, but it's clear that if his editor hadn't insisted he turn over the manuscript after 21 years of labor, the almost-superhuman effort might have wrecked his health.

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: jfk; jfkassassination; oswalddidit
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To: word_warrior_bob

I am listening to Buglosi’s book right now, I suspect there are several reasons the book is that long (this is only a guess:):

1.) There are a lot of photographs and diagrams in the book. I have only seen the book in a bookstore, but there were a lot of discolorations on the edge of the pages indicating photographs.

2.) He is retelling the events in a novelistic narrative, which is entertaining and informative, but takes more space.


151 posted on 06/03/2007 1:11:18 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: Ditter
Look we will never agree so let's just give it up, OK?

For some odd reason the pro-report people ~insist~ that we all ~must~ agree on the "lone gunman theory". -
Why? - No one can explain.

152 posted on 06/03/2007 1:18:36 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Now, after forty years we really have had a "JFK conspiracy." It was strange to hear them talking about it on the radio: "Americans love JFK. The terrorists thought that destroying JFK would deal a blow to the US." Hard to tell where the man ends and the airport begins.

Anyway, if I were a pretentious French philosopher, I'd say that the alleged Kennedy assassination conspiracies have become "hyperreal" -- more real than anything that actually happened in the Kennedy years. But I'm not, so I won't.

153 posted on 06/03/2007 1:21:37 PM PDT by x
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To: Ditter; tpaine

Fair enough. We agree to disagree. God Bless!


154 posted on 06/03/2007 1:23:51 PM PDT by REDWOOD99
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To: rlmorel

Read this review, - it explains in detail why the book is so long, - and inaccurate.

Address:http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pp/07154/790575.stm


155 posted on 06/03/2007 1:25:31 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: tpaine
The "magic Bullet"...is not magic at all. It performed exactly as designed. Heavy jacket, small lead core. Highly penatrative.

It is anything but 'pristine' as it is flat on one side ..where it hit Connly as it passed through to break a rib on it's way to his wrist. Look at he medical report on Connoly's back wound. At almost an inch in length that shows the bullet was tumbling after passing through Kennedy.

The conspiracy theorist never look at the ballistics of the Carcano or the effect a bullet of this type and performace.

Oswald did it.....alone.

156 posted on 06/03/2007 1:54:42 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: Pistolshot; y'all
The conspiracy theorist never look at the ballistics of the Carcano or the effect a bullet of this type and performace.
Oswald did it.....alone.

Its highly doubtful that Oswald did it.....alone. - As I explained in post #16, and several since then.

I have no conspiracy theory, I simply cannot accept the theories put forth by Specter and the Commission.

I'm fully aware of the ballistics of the Carcano and the effect of bullets of this type and performance; - none of that info lends any proof to Specters single bullet theory.

157 posted on 06/03/2007 2:13:39 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Pistolshot
Kennedy’s entrance wound was 14 centimeters or five and one half inches from his Mastoid Process, the bony protrusion behind your ear, parallel to the sixth cervical vertebra of the vertebral column. It was one inch to the right of his spine. It was measured by the coroner and the picture with a ruler are part of the autopsy photos. It also had a halo effect which shows it was an entrance wound.

It’s the conspiracy “theorists” who continue to move the wound around to suit their purpose.

158 posted on 06/03/2007 2:17:45 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

That was the third shot....the one that hit Kennedy in the back also went through Connaly.


159 posted on 06/03/2007 2:26:15 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: tpaine
Performance and capabilities do lend to the 'single bullet theory' The ammunition used has the potential to perform exactly as it did between the two men. The case is not about Kennedy, it's about a lonely, misfit of a man who thought he was better than reality.

Oswald was a frustrated man who never got the chances he 'deserved'. His murder of Kennedy was to prove to Marina he was a 'great man.' Nothing more, nothing less. Oswald did it....alone.

160 posted on 06/03/2007 2:34:58 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: Pistolshot

Second shot. See post 37.

The first hit a curb and a fragment of the bullet or concrete hit James Tague.

The second hit Kennedy and Connally.

The third hit Kennedy at the rear of his head.


161 posted on 06/03/2007 2:45:43 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

Bingo.


162 posted on 06/03/2007 2:46:24 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: Pistolshot

I’m still looking for the bullet tests for the Carcano. They shot a round into some wooden beam and the bullet was relatively undamaged. Can’t seem to find it.


163 posted on 06/03/2007 3:05:47 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Pistolshot; y'all
Performance and capabilities do lend to the 'single bullet theory'

Specters theory threw out the 1st shot at an [early] frame in the 160's, as JFK disappeared [to Oswald] in the foliage at frame 166. - Unless it missed, which is contradicted by most all other evidence, namely that it would have had to ricochet over 100 yds downrange to hit the underpass curb.

At frame 166, - Oswald would have had to be standing, - or seated leaning far out of the window, - in order to achieve the steep downward angle to his target, - which was also moving away down the street to the right. Tough shot, which he probably did not take.

We are then left with this sequence:

First shot at frame 210, - 'neck' hit.
Cycle bolt [2.3 seconds] aim, fire, miss. [curb hit?]
Cycle bolt [2.3 seconds] aim, fire, head shot [frame 313].

The shot at frame 210 is still at a fairly steep down angle, with the limo going to Oswalds right, making it even more difficult to line up the single bullet with JFK's wounds - and Connelly's wounds.

Thus, the 3rd shot is the 'easy one' from Oswalds position, with the down angle decreased and the limo going fairly straight away.

All told, the sequence of shots that Specter dreamed up has major flaws. - And has never been duplicated convincingly .

Feel free to draft your own sequence of shots, showing when they were made and what they hit. No one to date can better Specters flawed version.

164 posted on 06/03/2007 3:46:38 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: tpaine

No thanks, tpaine.

There are two things I am going to do first.

First, I am going to finish the book. I am not really interested in hearing someone tear it down before I have had a chance to read it, especially not someone like Josiah Thompson, who apparently is heavily invested in one side of the story.

Second, I am going to follow Bugliosi’s advice (outlined in post #27) and actually get my hands on the Warren Commission Report, and read it.

That should put me ahead of 99% of the people who have an opinion about it one way or another.

But thanks anyway. Nothing personal.


165 posted on 06/03/2007 3:59:17 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: y'all
More from the Bugliosi book.

Address:http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/pp/07154/790575.stm

Bugliosi, the Warren Commission and the House committee claim Kennedy was shot in the head at Zapruder frame 313.

Bugliosi and the commission say Kennedy and Connally were hit simultaneously while the car is behind the sign, frames 207-224.

Bugliosi has a first shot fired at frame 160, which misses the limousine entirely. This reconstruction requires the putative gunman in the book depository to have fired blindly into a tree when he would have had a clean shot only a second and a half later.

Bugliosi's minor change to the commissions reconstruction makes less sense than the original.

One would expect the first shot from a sniper to be the most accurate. Why would a shooter miss the limousine entirely on his first shot when it was right below him and Kennedy was large in his sight, then hit Kennedy twice with his next two shots at greater ranges?

As the commission noted, most Dealey Plaza witnesses placed the first shot significantly later. Phil Willis, for example, said the first shot jarred his finger on the shutter of his camera and produced a photo taken at frame 202.

The real scandal of the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination is that no reconstruction of the event makes sense. We know the event happened in one way rather than another. But the evidence is discordant and irreconcilable at a primitive level. The meaning of this discordance is unclear, but the simplest explanation is that not all the evidence is really evidence.

What is crystal clear, however, is that more than 43 years after the event we don't know what happened.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wise words. None of us know what happened, and its futile indeed to insist that Bugliosi or the Commission can declare case closed.

166 posted on 06/03/2007 4:25:28 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Pistolshot
The first bullet missed and hit a curb. The bullet fragments or concrete hit a man named James Tague who was standing near the underpass. That bullet or fragments were never found.

The second bullet traveled 2000 fps to hit the president 5 1/2inches [14 Centimeters]below the Mastoid Process and one inch to the right of the spine.

[The bullet wound also exhibited a Halo Effect which is a ring around a typical high speed bullet entrance wound], it hit no bones and exited out his neck[1772 to 1,779 feet per second] clipping his tie[photos of the tie]. It traveled 28 inches away[trajectory report]to hit Connelly near the right armpit[Doctor's report] clipping his rib[Doctor's report]and keyholed out his chest leaving a 2 inch by 1/2 inch wound [Doctor's report]. Connelly’s label moves outward at 223-224. [Zapruder film]

At this point it had only hit one bone and is now flying sideways when it hit the wrist [3/4 inch wound] and buries itself in a shallow wound[very little soft tissue damage,[Doctor's report] in the thigh leaving an amount of lead in the thigh. The amount of lead in the wrist and the bullet add up to the original weight of 161 grains which is the same amount of the bullets from the Western Ammunition Company. Connelly had a broken rib bone and wrist bone. {Doctor's report]. Cloth from his clothing was found in his wrist.

The third bullet hit Kennedy in the back of the head toward the right side forcing his head to move forward by approximately two inches. The bullet broke into two pieces at the bullet’s cannelure. One piece cracked the inside of the windshield near the mirror.

The second fragment hit the chrome strip at the top of the windshield. There are photographs in evidence of the crack and the dent. The two pieces were found at the front of the limousine, one on the floorboard and the other on the seat. The Zapruder film at 313-314 shows Kennedy’s head moving approximately two to three inches forward at the moment of impact.

The photographs of Kennedy’s head and skull show a small entrance hole and a large exit hole. Cratering of the hole at the back of the skull is typical of entrance holes. [Autopsy Report]

167 posted on 06/03/2007 6:30:27 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: tpaine
Here's my analysis and what looks more to what the evidence suggests.

Frame 202

A few frames before the first shot is fired. Notice the girl in the pink sweater at the top of the picture. Keep her in mind. Also notice the clarity of the picture, steady and fairly focused. Remember Zapruder has a fear of heights and is being supported by his secratary on the pedastal in the park area.

The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203

The picture is now a blur as Zapruder reacts to the shot and the camera jiggles.

Frame 205. The follow up car and the girl in the sweater.

Back in focus. The girl in the pink sweater is reacting to a sound from behind her. The follow up car is also starting to react and notice the proximity to the limo itself. Kennedy is disappearing behind the sign.

Frame 225.

Out from behind the sign Kennedy is still reacting to the first shot. His mouth is open in surprise and Connally is begining his turn to the right to look behind him.

The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227

Again the camera jiggles from the reaction to the sound of the gunshot. Kennedy is begining to react, Connaly looks as if he has turned completely to his right in the space of milliseconds, indicating he is also hit.

Frame 229. Both men react to the shot.

Both men are now reacting . Kennedy, shot through the neck has suffered a possibly fatal wound. This bullet has entered his back just below the collar line and exited out his throat. It has also damaged his neck causing the reaction seen here. Both arms are locked in place in reaction to the damage at this point.

Frame 228 Both men react.

Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. Connaly sitting lower and inboard in the jumpseat in front of the president is in a direct line to the TSBD.

Frame 235 The reaction continues.

Connaly is now slumped fully to his right as the lung collapses. Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine. I will find the name if you'd like.

Frame 265 Connaly collapses, Kennedy is paralyzed.

This frame shows Connaly completely turned to his right and about to be pulled into his wife's arms. Kennedy has become paralyzed, fists clenched, arms upright and locked, and sitting upright due to the brace he wore for his back injury from WW2 and surgery to help alleviate the pain. This brace will hold him up to die.

Frame 311 Jackie leans in.

Jackie is leaning in trying to see what is wrong and pushing on Kennedy's arm to lower it. Connaly is in his wife Nellie's arms and out of the line of sight. Jackie is terribly close to the path of the last and final shot.

Frame 313 The Fatal Headshot.

John Patrick Kennedy receives the fatal wound.

Having visited Dealy Plaza on a number of occasions I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.

Frame 318 The head snap.

The reason Kennedy's head snaps back is the brace he is wearing. It was designed to keep his upper body rigid for extended periods such as a motorcade. When the fatal shot was fired all motor control ceased as his brain was pulverized and the motor areas disintegrated. Arms dropped and the body was snapped in place by the brace.

Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

168 posted on 06/03/2007 7:34:51 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: Pistolshot

Should be John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Patrick is the sonm who died at childbirth.


169 posted on 06/03/2007 8:52:56 PM PDT by Pistolshot (Thompson '08)
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To: Biblebelter
"...“Jack, you SOB.” To me that sure sounded not only like someone who knew his killer, but who also it rang to me of betrayal..."

Just so you know, it was not Oswald who said that, it was one of the Dallas Police dectectives who knew Jack Ruby well who said it.

170 posted on 06/03/2007 9:38:25 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: Pistolshot
Excellent. You did a great job. I often wondered where the little girl was standing and you answered that. You’re also correct about being paralyzed. The temporary wound channel of a gunshot would have caused that.

Thanks for answering so many questions.

171 posted on 06/04/2007 5:06:14 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Pistolshot; y'all
Pistolshot:
Here's my analysis and what looks more to what the evidence suggests.
Frame 202
A few frames before the first shot is fired. Notice the girl in the pink sweater at the top of the picture. Keep her in mind. Also notice the clarity of the picture, steady and fairly focused. Remember Zapruder has a fear of heights and is being supported by his secratary on the pedastal in the park area.
The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203
The picture is now a blur as Zapruder reacts to the shot and the camera jiggles.

Fine. Start the clock on a 2.3 second cycle of the rifles action [the W.C. 'best speed'] correlated with the Z-film camera speed of 18.3 frames per second. Say 42 frames to cycle the action. The second shot could not occur before frame 245.

Frame 205. The follow up car and the girl in the sweater. Back in focus. The girl in the pink sweater is reacting to a sound from behind her. The follow up car is also starting to react and notice the proximity to the limo itself. Kennedy is disappearing behind the sign.
Frame 225.
Out from behind the sign Kennedy is still reacting to the first shot. His mouth is open in surprise and Connally is begining his turn to the right to look behind him.
The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227


Again, fine, - if this is when the second shot occurred, we would have to backtrack at least 42 frames, placing the first shot at frame 185, minimum. - And as, according to the Report, Oswalds view was blocked by the tree from frame 166 to 190, this presents a timeline problem.

Again the camera jiggles from the reaction to the sound of the gunshot. Kennedy is begining to react, Connaly looks as if he has turned completely to his right in the space of milliseconds, indicating he is also hit. Frame 229. Both men react to the shot.
Both men are now reacting . Kennedy, shot through the neck has suffered a possibly fatal wound. This bullet has entered his back just below the collar line and exited out his throat. It has also damaged his neck causing the reaction seen here. Both arms are locked in place in reaction to the damage at this point.
Frame 228 Both men react.
Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. Connaly sitting lower and inboard in the jumpseat in front of the president is in a direct line to the TSBD.
Frame 235 The reaction continues.
Connaly is now slumped fully to his right as the lung collapses. Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine. I will find the name if you'd like.


No need, as [according to your own first shot at Frame 203 timeline] it is still a full 10 Frames before a shot could be made by even the fastest expert rifleman the Commission could find.

Frame 265 Connaly collapses, Kennedy is paralyzed. This frame shows Connaly completely turned to his right and about to be pulled into his wife's arms. Kennedy has become paralyzed, fists clenched, arms upright and locked, and sitting upright due to the brace he wore for his back injury from WW2 and surgery to help alleviate the pain. This brace will hold him up to die. Frame 311 Jackie leans in. Jackie is leaning in trying to see what is wrong and pushing on Kennedy's arm to lower it. Connaly is in his wife Nellie's arms and out of the line of sight. Jackie is terribly close to the path of the last and final shot.
Frame 313 The Fatal Headshot.
John Patrick Kennedy receives the fatal wound.
Having visited Dealy Plaza on a number of occasions I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.


I too have walked the area, and doubt that the angle of the first shot could ricochet [off a tree?] to strike the curb down by the underpass.

Frame 318 The head snap.
The reason Kennedy's head snaps back is the brace he is wearing. It was designed to keep his upper body rigid for extended periods such as a motorcade. When the fatal shot was fired all motor control ceased as his brain was pulverized and the motor areas disintegrated. Arms dropped and the body was snapped in place by the brace.
Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off.

172 posted on 06/04/2007 7:48:39 AM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Shooter 2.5
"If you don’t think a 161 grain bullet traveling 2000 feet a second can’t go through six inches of flesh, take a ham out of the tin and hold it in front of you."

Your argument will be more convincing if you tell them to leave the ham in the tin.

173 posted on 06/04/2007 7:59:02 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack ((or was it just the Tiger?))
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To: Oztrich Boy

Jackie was indepedently wealthy - the analogy dont work.

Read some of the bios - she married Onnasis since he was one of the most powerful men in the world - and underworld - at that time.


174 posted on 06/04/2007 2:16:06 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Joe 6-pack
That might help them think they could get away with it, but since Kennedy didn't wear tin, I think it’s a close resemblance to the second shot.
175 posted on 06/04/2007 2:57:03 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Shooter 2.5

What does Bugliosi accomplish that Posner already didn’t in “Case Closed?”


176 posted on 06/04/2007 2:58:18 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: MinuteGal

>>no political axe to grind<<

Maybe not, but make no mistake, he went into this book like he did with all this cases (as all prosecutors would): as an advocate with a position to prove rather than a search for the truth. Anyone that believes otherwise is fooling themselves.

I haven’t his book, so I can’t give it a fair assessment. But unless he included something original or new in here, assassination researchers aren’t going to that this or him seriously.


177 posted on 06/04/2007 3:09:07 PM PDT by 1L
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To: dfwgator
What does Bugliosi accomplish that Posner already didn't in 'Case Closed'?

Leading question, considering that Posner accomplished nothing, - and neither has Bugliosi.

Both of their books are perfect examples of the 'prosecutorial style'; thus, - both gloss over the factual errors in the Commissions Report.

Ignoring facts will never 'close' the case.

178 posted on 06/04/2007 3:11:21 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Shooter 2.5

You can’t prove that Oswald did it anymore than someone can prove that the mafia, or the Cubans or the CIA, or whoever did it. Besides, stating that the Warren Commission findings are flawed (which they are) doesn’t require someone to prove the alternative theory.

I have no idea what happened to Emilia Earheart (sp??). However, while I can say without question that I (or you) didn’t kill her, but I can’t prove that.


179 posted on 06/04/2007 3:12:25 PM PDT by 1L
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To: Shooter 2.5
"... Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this—that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest. that I had probably been fatally hit."

Conspiracists have exploited Gov. Connally's testimony here to further their mission that multiple shooters were at work in Dealey Plaza. Some even maintain that this response and perhaps one more interview similar to this one signals that Connally believed in a conspiracy until the day he died.

Well, not so fast. As we've already seen the unreliability of eyewitnesses and earwitnesses in the spectating crowd in Dealey Plaza, we should also attribute the same confusion, misidentification, and conflicting testimony to the victims of the shooting.

"I'm sorry, but I regret to inform you that I simply cannot remember how many shots were being fired at me. Unfortunately, I was being cut down with bullets at the time and lost count. I also cannot say for sure which wounds I received were caused by which particular bullets in the several second timespan of the assassination attempt that I barely survived."

Don't you think that the conspiracists aren't being fair about this? I see it to be exploitation of unreliable testimony.

I think that those people who insist that they could determine the direction of shots being fired at them as they were being hit with said bullets are either disingenuous or don't appreciate the panic and chaos involved in being on the receiving end of such an event. From personal accounts of Marines I've known in Gulf War I and the current War in Iraq, none of them were able to immediately determine the source of enemy hostile fire even when taking direct fire.

One fellow I know who occasionally posts here on FR survived an IED attack in Iraq that neither killed nor injured any of the Marines in his patrol, but made everyone think that the whole world exploded around them when it went off. No sound, just instant ringing in the ears. No light, just darkness. No wall of heat or flame, just an eruption of dirt and cordite smoke. No shockwave, just instant contrast between the violent moment of the explosion compared to the peaceful moment just an instant before the blast. No warning whatsoever. Only when they recovered from the blast did they even know what had happened. For all the difference it would have made, the explanation could have been that the sun simply just went supernova. Instead, it was two 155mm shells rigged together that blew up less than 100 meters away from their position. Imagine being slapped to the ground by a giant invisible flyswatter while someone cuts the lights off in the room you're in. Let that happen to you and then take a quiz on how much detail you remember right before the blast. Compare your answers to everyone else's, and that ought to show everyone what the reliability of individual testimony amounts to during a time of extreme crisis.

It's one thing for conspiracists to be a forensic reconstructionist (or deconstructionist, as I believe is the better word for them) who believe that a mall full of people would be uniformly reliable witnesses to the chaos of a startling and unexpected violent event.

I'm sure you agree.

180 posted on 06/04/2007 3:13:53 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: 1L
"... I have no idea what happened to Emilia Earheart (sp??). However, while I can say without question that I (or you) didn’t kill her, but I can’t prove that."

According to your intellectually lazy logic that you use to dismiss the physical mechanics of Oswald's shooting ability, you're not even sure that Amelia Earhart's plane ever again made contact with the surface of the Earth, much less crashed somewhere.

181 posted on 06/04/2007 3:18:27 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: Fedora

ping


182 posted on 06/04/2007 3:20:37 PM PDT by Liz (It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. Voltaire)
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To: dfwgator

I haven’t read either one. I just find the testimonies and the photos on the web.


183 posted on 06/04/2007 3:21:48 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: The KG9 Kid

Your statement makes no sense. I haven’t commented in this thread on Oswald’s shooting ability.

There’s nothing flawed or lazy about what I stated. Trying to refute it by misstating it or confusing it is absurd.


184 posted on 06/04/2007 3:24:58 PM PDT by 1L
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To: tpaine
"... Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off."

Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here. We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine.

The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer. It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals. Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over.

You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!' timing scenario when it's been proven that it's just flat wrong.

That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.

185 posted on 06/04/2007 3:29:24 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: 1L
You're ignoring all of the evidence gathered -- ballistic, material, witness, culpable, rational, motivational -- that Oswald didn't shoot President Kennedy.

You're plainly saying that it cannot be proven that Oswald didn't murder the President. Period.

Is that what you said?

No existing evidence can prove to you that Oswald even fired a single shot at Kennedy?

186 posted on 06/04/2007 3:35:53 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid
You accuse others here of "intellectually lazy logic" used to "dismiss the physical mechanics of Oswald's shooting ability"; -- yet you can't be bothered to dismiss the physical mechanics involved in Specter's single bullet theory.

-- My recent posts on that theory have yet to be addressed. - Feel free to dazzle us with your logic.

187 posted on 06/04/2007 3:37:59 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: tpaine
You've said previously in this thread that you harbor no conspiracy theory aside from your unwillingness to believe Sen. Specter's single bullet theory.

I think that others here (and in previous threads) are doing a swell job of showing timing data, wound ballistic data, victim testimony, and forensic medical data showing that the single bullet theory is the only suitable and logical answer for shot #2.

If you disagree on timing, you're just wrong. If you disagree on wounding potential and likelihood of shot #2, where's your other bullet(s)?

188 posted on 06/04/2007 4:00:57 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid
Pistolshot claimed:

The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203

Fine. Start the clock on a 2.3 second cycle of the rifles action [the W.C. 'best speed'] correlated with the Z-film camera speed of 18.3 frames per second. Say 42 frames to cycle the action. The second shot could not occur before frame 245.

The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227

Again, fine, - if this is when the second shot occurred, we would have to backtrack at least 42 frames, placing the first shot at frame 185, minimum. - And as, according to the Report, Oswalds view was blocked by the tree from frame 166 to 190, this presents a timeline problem.

Frame 228 Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung.
Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine.
I will find the name if you'd like.

No need, as [according to your own first shot at Frame 203 timeline] it is still a full 10 Frames before a shot could be made by even the fastest expert rifleman the Commission could find.

I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.

I too have walked the area, and doubt that the angle of the first shot could ricochet [off a tree?] to strike the curb down by the underpass.

Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Kid comments:

Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here.

How amusing that you fail to show my "error" of calculation. I've show above, in mathematical detail, how the rifles action cannot be cycled in less than 42 frames of Z-film time, and how that time constraint simply does not fit in with what the film shows.
Feel free to show us how it would.

We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine. The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer.

The proof is in the details.
At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. -"

Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313.

That is 85 frames, and cycling the action twice takes 84, - by an expert.

It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals.

So you all claim. Not a one of those "replicated" shoots have been done with enough detail to be credible to reasonable observers. Show me your proof that they have.

Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over. You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!'

And you just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have had a problem shooting that fast!' Over and over and over and over and over.

That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.

You haven't even added up the numbers, - because they don't fit Specters theory.

I find it sad that you somehow feel compelled to defend that man and that Report. - Me, - I'd find it easier to defend Reno about Waco.

189 posted on 06/04/2007 4:37:02 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: The KG9 Kid
Pistolshot claimed:

The First Shot(My opinion) Frame 203

Fine. Start the clock on a 2.3 second cycle of the rifles action [the W.C. 'best speed'] correlated with the Z-film camera speed of 18.3 frames per second. Say 42 frames to cycle the action. The second shot could not occur before frame 245.

The 2nd Shot(My opinion). Frame 227

Again, fine, - if this is when the second shot occurred, we would have to backtrack at least 42 frames, placing the first shot at frame 185, minimum. - And as, according to the Report, Oswalds view was blocked by the tree from frame 166 to 190, this presents a timeline problem.

Frame 228 Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung.
Kennedy will be locked in this position until the fatal headshot. There is a medical term for this position after an injury to the spine.
I will find the name if you'd like.

No need, as [according to your own first shot at Frame 203 timeline] it is still a full 10 Frames before a shot could be made by even the fastest expert rifleman the Commission could find.

I have walked the entire length and area in the Zapruder film. We are talking maybe 30-40 yards of distance for all this to happen. There is a gentle slope aweay from the TSBD and accounts for much of the angles of fire into the limo carrying the entourage.

I too have walked the area, and doubt that the angle of the first shot could ricochet [off a tree?] to strike the curb down by the underpass.

Three shots. All by Oswald. Acting alone.

Yep, three spaced and aimed shots [2.3 seconds apart, min.] are your problem. - Obviously, you can't correlate them to the Z-films timeline, so they remain the problem, as it is virtually impossible that Oswald, acting alone, pulled them off.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Kid comments:

Your error in calculation (whether deliberate or unintentional) is the problem here.

How amusing that you fail to show my "error" of calculation. I've show above, in mathematical detail, how the rifles action cannot be cycled in less than 42 frames of Z-film time, and how that time constraint simply does not fit in with what the film shows.
Feel free to show us how it would.

We've gone over this with you plenty of times, tpaine. The first shot was ready in waiting and started the clock. The second shot was taken at the instant Oswald cycled the action and aimed in. He took his time for the third shot. Approximately 8.3 to 8.5 seconds in total. It's plenty of time to cycle two shots with a free trigger pull to start the timer.

The proof is in the details.
At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. -"

Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313.

That is 85 frames, and cycling the action twice takes 84, - by an expert.

It's been replicated by the WC investigators, the HCSA investigators, the FBI, the military, NRA High Power competition shooters of several ranks, and private individuals.

So you all claim. Not a one of those "replicated" shoots have been done with enough detail to be credible to reasonable observers. Show me your proof that they have.

Equalled or bettered in time and terminal performance. Over and over and over and over and over. You just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have shot that fast!'

And you just continue to maintain the old 'Oswald couldn't possibly have had a problem shooting that fast!' Over and over and over and over and over.

That's all we can really say to you on this issue. Your numbers are just wrong.

You haven't even added up the numbers, - because they don't fit Specters theory.

I find it sad that you somehow feel compelled to defend that man and that Report. - Me, - I'd find it easier to defend Reno about Waco.

190 posted on 06/04/2007 4:39:33 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: tpaine; Shooter 2.5
... Come to think of it, where's YOUR 'magic bullet', tpaine?

You know, that magic bullet that leaves no trace of itself whatsoever but allows bullet #2 to only deal some portion of the wounds claimed by Specter's single bullet theory. It's the magic bullet that does the rest of the wounds to Kennedy (and perhaps presumably, Connally) yet cannot be accounted for in any way.

Where is this vanishing bullet?

Consider this: We're compelled to satisfy you and other WC skeptics by showing you the relative height of the two wounded men in the limousine, the bullet hole in Kennedy's suit coat as it relates to his dress shirt hole discrepancy caused by his back brace girdle, new video of Kennedy riding in the motorcade with the same rumpled fabric in his suit , the nick in his necktie knot from the exit wound of the bullet, the medical analysis showing that the emergency tracheotomy is NOT a frontal wound, the damage to the interior of the vehicle, the position of Gov. Connally matching with the bullet pathing, the frame by frame analysis of the victims and bystanders reactions to the shots as recorded on the Zapruder film, the X-ray data showing that all of the fragmented bullet material to Kennedy is in the right side of his cranium, the fragmented dishing of the impact wound on the bone of Kennedy's skull showing an entrance wound from the back along with the halo bruising of the upper dermis of Kennedy's head, the physics of 'jet effect', the two-frame forward lurch of bullet impact of shot #3, the wounded spectator downrange in the line of fire hit by fragments of shot #1, and the nuclear accelerator data showing the molecular signature of the lead/bismuth/antimony/copper material and rifling pattern used in the bullets fired from Oswald's rifle 'C2766' to the exclusion of any other weapon.

In our mission to prove this, we're charged with the labor of shooting down every stupid 'UFOs vs. Bigfoot' crackpot theory that deals with explosive bullets, sewer snipers, the Grassy Knoll, the 'pristine bullet' ("Hah! That dawg don't hunt."), switched bodies in caskets, clandestine burials at sea by the Kennedy family, deliberately botched autopsies, forged medical records, CIA M14 rifles rechambered for some wildcat 6.5x51mm round using Carcano projectiles on top of a .308 Winchester case, deliberately confused shot timing presumptions, paranoiac rantings about the US Federal Reserve, irrelevant Dallas police department Dictabelt recordings, and most annoyingly, screenplay dialogue from the execrable Oliver Stone movie JFK.

Yet you can just dismiss all of this and say that the kill shot came from the front and not produce a shred of material evidence. You just say "Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front." and haven't got a single thing to stand on to prove it. No particle data, no bullet fragments, no witnesses, no physics data, no wounding data, no medical data. Nothing. We avalanche you with data and evidence supporting what really happened, you offer nothing to support your claim of shadowy unnamed conspirators firing vanishing bullets.

Now truly, tpaine. Is this intellectually fair of you?

I have the sinking feeling that we're just going to have to go over this all again in the next JFK thread that pops up; We smash the ridiculous theories invented by Marxist diversionists and irrational paranoiacs, but you just say "Nope nope. Shot came from the front. It's a conspiracy." offer zero credible evidence of your own and dismiss everything else. If that's the case, let's just stop now, petition Jim Robinson for an 'ignore' feature on FR, and you can go off and rally around the people who think that the Apollo landings were shot in a warehouse in Area 51.

191 posted on 06/04/2007 5:00:39 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: 1L

Actually, I did prove he did it or at least the testimony of the witnesses and the evidence did.

The problem the conspiracy theorists have is they can’t prove someone other than Oswald did it.

I’ll give an example. Since some people can’t understand how the pyramids were built, they don’t believe people built the pyramids. Enter the space aliens.

So Oswald killed Kennedy. But there are those who disbelieve it due to an old saying, “The peasant can’t kill the King”. It shakes their sensibilities.

The next explanation is the “hate group”. They hate someone so much, they try to pin the murder on them, whether it’s LBJ or “Bush did it”.

There’s also another small group. That’s the group who think they are smarter than the balistics experts, the pathologists and the doctors/coroner. Since the experts have one view, that group which has an authority problem will take another opposite view just to be “smarter” than the experts.

I almost forgot the largest group. They saw a movie. It must be true.


192 posted on 06/04/2007 5:11:05 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: tpaine
"... The proof is in the details. At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. -"

Now the rifle must be cycled, - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313."

1. See, now this is probably the first part where you're all messed up. You're saying that Oswald cycled the Carcano and missed the motorcade and this bullet struck the curb?

2. You do know that we've (Shooter 2.5 and I, anyway) adopt the 8.5 second timeline proven by Posner with the out of spec calibration of Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera? Are you or are you not aware of that?

Do you believe that Zapruder's early 1960s-vintage home movie camera was tuned like a Swiss chronograph to match time in real life? Are you aware of any testimony covering this in any investigation of the Kennedy Assassination? Zapruder was not using a Sony Handicam from Best Buy. Analog, tpaine, not digital.

We're saying (and have been saying for quite some time here on FR) that the Warren Commission was essentially correct in their final assessment of the lone gunman/single bullet theory. Your theory that Oswald couldn't have made the shots based on timing and as a result that the Warren Commission is incorrect (and presumably, proves evidence of conspiracy) rests fully on the potential for mistake that the WC assumed in that Zapruder's camera matches real time precisely. Either that, or you're trying to play off one FR poster's discrepancies in deductions (Pistolshot) against others (Mine and Shooter's) as lending weight to your theory, or both. Either way, that's flimsy.

You know what? Never mind all that. Just tell us where your magic bullet is. That one that killed Kennedy that Oswald didn't fire.

193 posted on 06/04/2007 5:34:22 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid; Pistolshot

This might help. They even included the two inch impact movement which I wish I had known about earlier. I do notice they have it at 312 instead of 313. Someone’s head moving two inches in 1/18 of a second is how many Miles An Hour????

Frame # Event
140 The car turns on to Elm street.
145 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
151-153 [Some people interpret the first shot as having been fired at this point]
154-155 Kennedy turns his head very rapidly from left to right.
158-160 Zapruder jiggled his camera. [Numerous “Ear-witnesses” recall the first shot being about this point, when the car has just turned the corner onto Elm Street]
160 The little girl who is running next to the Car begins to turn to her right.
162 The little girl has stopped running. Kennedy stops waving. Connally turns his head sharply to the right.
??? James Tague is struck by a piece of flying cement while standing under the end of the triple by-pass. [along a straight line, through the oak tree and the School Book Depository window. A mark in the cement along that line revealed traces of lead and antimony, suggesting that the round had lost its copper jacket — which can happen when striking a tree branch]
167-210 Foliage blocks a School Book Depository sniper’s view of Kennedy (with a small break at 186), according to reconstructions (2.3 seconds). Branches had given partial visual cover for some time before that.
187 (1.5 seconds after frame 160) The little girl has stopped and is staring at the SBD. Kennedy starts waving again. Mrs. Kennedy is looking around.
189-197 Zapruder jiggles his camera again.
188-191(190) [House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Kennedy was hit. This is the traditionally held time for that the second shot hit him. Many people believe that this shot was a front shot from a smaller weapon than the 6.5 mm Carcano]
200 No one in the car appears hurt. Kennedy is waving to the crowd with his right hand.
200-224 Zapruder’s view of Kennedy is blocked by a highway sign. Even during this time, Kennedy’s hand can still be seen over the sign.
202 Phillip Willis’s photograph showing Zapruder was shot here.
207 Witness Howard Brennan turns abruptly to the right.
210 As Kennedy becomes visible from the foliage, this is the first opportunity that an SBD sniper would have a chance to fire.
220-228 Zapruder jiggles his camera.
223-224 Probable time that Kennedy was first hit. [At this point, the positions of the two men, Kennedy’s leaning slightly forward, and the much taller Connally twisted to the right, with his hand in front of him, holding his hat at lower chest level, make it possible for a single bullet to enter Kennedy’s back, pass through his lower throat, into Connally’s right back, glance downward off a rib, exit under his right nipple, and enter his left thigh coming to rest, drained of energy, just below the skin.]
224 The right front lapel on Connally’s suit flips up as the bullet passed through his chest.
225 Kennedy becomes visible to Zapruder again, his right arm is resting on the edge of the car, having just relaxed from waving. Connally shows no obvious effects.
226 Kennedy is clearly raising his right arm. Conally becomes rigid, and changed his expression [The House Select Committee suggests that this is the point at which Connally was hit based on his facial features and body position.]
227 Kennedy’s arm jerks off the car, clearly reacting to the throat shot [This is a clear case of “Thorburn’s Position”, as his body reacts to the spinal damage caused by the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing so close to the spine in 223-4. This is supported by the fact that his arms are locked into position until 313] (1/10-2/10 of a second after 223-4) Connally’s hat (held in his right hand) begins to move in a reflex response to his radius bone being broken)
228 Kennedy’s torso pitches forward suddenly (to 231)
229 Connally’s hat drops to its original position.
229-233 Mrs. Connally claimed her husband was shot about this time.
231-234 Connally told the Warren Commission that this was when he remembered being hit.
231 Kennedy stops moving forward.
234 Connally later determines it was at this point. [This is likely when Connally tried to take his next regular breath, the lung punctured only 2/3s of a second before collapsed, and making him feel like he’d just been hit; or, he IS hit at this point and his lung collapses at this point].
235 Connally’s mouth opens wide and his body begins to react to the collapsed lung, drawing him down and to the right.
255 Estimated point at which Ike Altgens’ picture is shot [showing what appears to be Oswald in the SBD doorway, and an open window in the second floor Dal-Tex broom closet. It also appears to show the crack in the windshield left by bullet fragments (see 337) ].
309?- Zapruder jiggles his camera.
312 Kennedy’s head pitches forward suddenly.
313 The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy’s head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean.
by 320 The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy’s right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point
321 Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed.
337 Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a “pristine” (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:

Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random House, 1993


194 posted on 06/04/2007 5:54:47 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: The KG9 Kid
Yet you can just dismiss all of this and say that the kill shot came from the front and not produce a shred of material evidence. You just say "Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front."
Now truly, tpaine. Is this intellectually fair of you?

Truly Kid, if you can produce a post of mine saying; "-- Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front. --", - or even anything remotely like that, - I'll agree that you are being intellectually fair. - Whereas we both know you are not.

I have the sinking feeling that we're just going to have to go over this all again in the next JFK thread that pops up;

Probably will, primarily because you fellas feel driven to defend an indefensible Report, one full of ridiculous theories.

We smash the ridiculous theories invented by Marxist diversionists and irrational paranoiacs, but you just say "Nope nope. Shot came from the front. It's a conspiracy." offer zero credible evidence of your own and dismiss everything else.
If that's the case,

That's not the case. Your hype about Marxists proves that.

let's just stop now, petition Jim Robinson for an 'ignore' feature on FR,

I'm with you there. I've been petitioning for one ever since the 'don't post to me or you'll get banned' scheme became fashionable.

and you can go off and rally around the people who think that the Apollo landings were shot in a warehouse in Area 51.

Amusing. You're the one here playing the tinfoil game, not me.

195 posted on 06/04/2007 6:06:47 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: tpaine
Truly Kid, if you can produce a post of mine saying; "-- Nope nope nope. Shot came from the front. --", - or even anything remotely like that, - I'll agree that you are being intellectually fair. - Whereas we both know you are not.

What? You were just in a thread a few weeks ago going on and on about 'Back and to the left' of the Grassy Knoll/Sewer Shooter conspiracists. That's all Front-Shotism.

Front shot, back shot, WC timing's wrong, whatever. Never mind where from, you're saying there's at least one more bullet.

Just tell us where it is.

196 posted on 06/04/2007 6:23:08 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: The KG9 Kid; Pistolshot
Let me give you a hand with that.

Darn, I just noticed I missed the sewer ninja assassin.

197 posted on 06/04/2007 6:31:35 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: The KG9 Kid; y'all
The proof is in the details. At frame Frame 228 Pistolshot claims "- Both men react. Kennedy is clearly hit, Connaly his right shoulder slumping is about to react from a collaped lung. This is where CE399 went through both men. --"

Now the rifle must be cycled, [says the Specter theory] - once to miss and hit the curb, and again to hit JFK at frame 313."

1. See, now this is probably the first part where you're all messed up. You're saying that Oswald cycled the Carcano and missed the motorcade and this bullet struck the curb?

You're the one "all messed up". Specter's theory says that.

2. You do know that we've adopt the 8.5 second timeline proven by Posner with the out of spec calibration of Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera? Are you or are you not aware of that?

Adopt any opinion you want. Why should I care?

Do you believe that Zapruder's early 1960s-vintage home movie camera was tuned like a Swiss chronograph to match time in real life?

The House Committee established that it operated at 18.3 frames per second. You dispute that fact? Why?

Are you aware of any testimony covering this in any investigation of the Kennedy Assassination? Zapruder was not using a Sony Handicam from Best Buy. Analog, tpaine, not digital.

What speed do you claim the camera ran at?

We're saying (and have been saying for quite some time here on FR) that the Warren Commission was essentially correct in their final assessment of the lone gunman/single bullet theory.

Yes, you have. - Why is that so important to you?

Your theory that Oswald couldn't have made the shots based on timing and as a result that the Warren Commission is incorrect rests fully on the potential for mistake that the WC assumed in that Zapruder's camera matches real time precisely.

The camera does indeed run at a real speed. I can accept it runs at 18.3 FPS, - why can't you?

Either that, or you're trying to play off one FR poster's discrepancies in deductions (Pistolshot) against others as lending weight to your theory, or both. Either way, that's flimsy.

The Z-film's timing proves there is a discrepancy between what Specter theorizes, and what actually happened on that film. That's not flimsy, its reality.

You know what? Never mind all that. Just tell us where your magic bullet is. That one that killed Kennedy that Oswald didn't fire.

I'm not disputing that the last bullet fired could have come from the depository. Or that Oswald could have fired it. -- Never have.

198 posted on 06/04/2007 6:50:57 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: The KG9 Kid

>>all of the evidence gathered — ballistic, material, witness, culpable, rational, motivational<<

I’m not ignoring anything. There has been no absolute PROOF that Oswald 1)acted alone or for that matter, 2) fired at the motorcade. Even if there was, there isn’t absolute proof that Oswald fired the shots that hit anyone. Proof in this case is the lower standard common in civil cases of preponderance of the evidence. Forget about reasonable doubt; Oswald couldn’t be held liable in a civil case if you go through ALL the evidence.

>>You’re plainly saying that it cannot be proven that Oswald didn’t murder the President. Period.<<

No, that’s NOT what I’m saying. I’m saying it can not be proven (or at least, hasn’t yet) that Oswald killed Kennedy. I’m not sure where you’re getting the double negative there.

>>Is that what you said?<<

Nope.

>>No existing evidence can prove to you that Oswald even fired a single shot at Kennedy?<<

There is conflicting evidence here. I’m not going to go through it all, but will say this: IF Oswald WAS on the 6th floor window during the killing time, he did not fire the fatal head shot. That came from the front.


199 posted on 06/04/2007 7:05:42 PM PDT by 1L
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To: 1L

IF it came from the front.

PROVE IT.


200 posted on 06/04/2007 7:13:12 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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