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Iraqi Army receiving M-16s and new trust
StarTribune ^ | 6/4/07 | Scott Canon

Posted on 06/05/2007 5:36:35 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo

The M-16 is America's rifle. Putting it in Iraqis' hands is a symbolic but also a tactical maneuver.

The U.S. military in Iraq has begun issuing American M-16 rifles to some Iraqi troops in exchange for their Soviet-designed AK-47 rifles, the cheap and sturdy weapon that currently hangs from the shoulder of virtually every Iraqi soldier, police officer, insurgent and militiaman. U.S. military officials describe the switch, part of a $2 billion arms purchase for the country's fledgling security soldiers, as a modernization and a vote of confidence in Iraqi troops. The M-16 requires more care than the rugged and familiar AK-47 and demands a better-trained soldier.

That confidence extends only so far, however. With Iraq's security services infiltrated by both Sunni Muslim insurgents and Shiite militias, the U.S. military is requiring that each Iraqi soldier turn in his AK-47, take four days of training and be photographed with the serial number of his new M-16.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: banglist; iraq; iraqiarmy; m16; wot
Have at it......
1 posted on 06/05/2007 5:36:36 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

m16s are weaksauce, we should give them all of them and replace our guns with hk416s and fn scars, who cares if they arent american


2 posted on 06/05/2007 5:42:17 PM PDT by trd6478
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To: SJackson; jveritas; FARS; Ernest_at_the_Beach; knighthawk; Marine_Uncle; SandRat; Steel Wolf; ...

M16 for IAF ping.


3 posted on 06/05/2007 5:42:31 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Al Qaeda knows Iraq's strategic value, yet the Democrats work day and night for our defeat there.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
Given the mission and environment, I'd only trade if it was in a .308 flavor....
4 posted on 06/05/2007 5:44:31 PM PDT by GoldCountryRedneck ("Why can’t we start solving the problem by breaking up Big Government?"- MortMan)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Are they .223 or .308?


5 posted on 06/05/2007 5:51:56 PM PDT by Bob J (nks)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Are they .223 or .308?


6 posted on 06/05/2007 5:52:00 PM PDT by Bob J (nks)
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To: Bob J

I first saw this in the print version of the Strib. All the info was in one article. They have split the two on the web.

5.56mm

http://www.startribune.com/722/story/1223044.html


7 posted on 06/05/2007 5:57:19 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily. Apply Sparingly.)
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To: Bob J
"Already, more than 1,000 Iraqi soldiers have made the switch to the $1,000 rifles, with three-fourths of the cost paid by the Iraqi government."

I get it now.

8 posted on 06/05/2007 5:57:24 PM PDT by NeonKnight (We don't believe you, you need more people.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Yesh, poor Iraqi’s. I’ll take an AK over an M16 any day. Especially in a dirty, sandstorm prone desert environment.

The M16 doesn’t fare all that well in urban combat either. The 5.56 doesn’t have the mass to punch through walls and cars nearly as well as the 7.62.


9 posted on 06/05/2007 6:04:27 PM PDT by Arthalion
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To: Arthalion

I agree.


10 posted on 06/05/2007 6:18:46 PM PDT by OldEagle
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

JMHO~~~Bad move,,,the AK is a far better weapon than the
M-16 type rifle,,,any of them,,,they WILL NOT operate
with any sand/etc. in the action,,,the AK will,,,
this ammo problem(stealing) is BS,,,the world is full of AK ammo,,,it will never “dry-up”...


11 posted on 06/05/2007 6:21:24 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; All

I think we’re all in agreement on this. Not the best choice.


12 posted on 06/05/2007 6:27:13 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Carry Daily. Apply Sparingly.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

LOL,,,They never ask us nothin’...;0)


13 posted on 06/05/2007 6:30:28 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

BS. The Ak is perfect for that enviroment and if we had used them we still would have won in 3 weeks. Now the Iraqis wont clean them, they will jam and they can get captured and beheaded on al jazeera and you are out $250 in tax dollars for each one when they already had serviceable AKs.


14 posted on 06/05/2007 6:33:28 PM PDT by omega4179 (El 43.o presidente de los Estados Unidos De Norteamérica Jorge W Bush)
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To: elhombrelibre
M16 are pee shooters. It is a wonder the Iraqi are going along with the plan. For the life of me I cannot figure out why our Army and Marines have not gone back to the 7.72 round as standard issue. Damn kids now adays could get used to a little recoil. One aims, shoots to kill. Not put a little hole in someone, where their target often can get away. Blow their damn leg or arm off, if you can't pump a few into the kill zone.
I have owned twenty twos, shot Win. 222 and 250, owned a custom Rem. 243 1" barrel BDL, 7.65 Mauser, and shot plenty of rounds from Springfield 306.
I for one would never have choosen such a small bore round. The least the Army could have done is used a high end 6mm round if they where so concerned with new recruits getting their shoulders bruised. But the old NATO round should have been keeped in service all to use. Not just snipers. The Army went along with the PC gang. Now both or Soldiers and Marines have an undersize/powered field rifle to contend with. As far as the arguments always given about how a small bore high velocity bullet can do all kinds of damage, fine. But in the reality one wants to knock down their target with one well placed round. Not have to put a half dozen holes in them.
15 posted on 06/05/2007 6:37:33 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; ButThreeLeftsDo
"this ammo problem(stealing) is BS,,,the world is full of AK ammo,,,it will never “dry-up”..."

For some reason, I can't re-access the full article...But I think the point is that WE are no longer suppling AK ammo that is being stolen at an alarming rate.

P.S. Although I have kept an AR in .223 for many years, I'm no cheerleader for it as a combat weapon, either.

All in all, This idea makes sense....Provided our friends remember how important cleanliness is in their few days of training.

16 posted on 06/05/2007 6:39:31 PM PDT by labette
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To: Marine_Uncle
I agree. To me, there is one good reason for the 5.56 round. You can carry a lot more of them. Other than that I don’t get it. The recoil is something the flash suppressor and the release of the gasses as they work the action should mitigate for nearly every shooter. And like you said, if they couldn’t have a bullet bigger than a varmint round, they could have chosen a 6mm round, like the .260 Rem.
17 posted on 06/05/2007 6:48:40 PM PDT by elhombrelibre (Al Qaeda knows Iraq's strategic value, yet the Democrats work day and night for our defeat there.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Once while talking with a former Navy SEAL, I was told that when he was in Vietnam, he was shooting at an oncoming Vietcong with an M-16. He said “I knew that I hit that SOB at least 10 times and he still kept on coming. A guy next to me shot the same soldier with an M-14 once and he went down.”


18 posted on 06/05/2007 6:49:02 PM PDT by OldPossum
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To: Arthalion

AK’s are for illiterate 3rd-world soldiers. They aren’t worth a shit beyond a hundred yards. The M-16 and its varients, is a much more accurate weapon at longer ranges. Most of the combat that I’m aware of in Iraq tends to be urban, or at ranges under 300 meters. The M16 will do fine here.

Don’t get me wrong...I still think the best main battle rifles was/is the M14. I carried one in the Nam and can attest to its ruggedness and reliability. That long barrel got in the way of, or got caught on, anything and everything. Someting like Springfield Amory’s SOCOM would be a better solution. Sure, put a pistol grip on it.

7.62 NATO rules.


19 posted on 06/05/2007 6:58:58 PM PDT by x1stcav (If you continually have to say you support the troops, you probably don't.)
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To: OldPossum

Before or after he’d been hit with the 10 rounds of 556?


20 posted on 06/05/2007 7:02:28 PM PDT by x1stcav (If you continually have to say you support the troops, you probably don't.)
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To: trd6478

that fn scar is a bad weapon


21 posted on 06/05/2007 7:14:52 PM PDT by steel_resolve (Islam cannot compete in the marketplace of ideas, so they car bomb it instead.)
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To: trd6478

- and by bad i mean good


22 posted on 06/05/2007 7:15:21 PM PDT by steel_resolve (Islam cannot compete in the marketplace of ideas, so they car bomb it instead.)
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To: x1stcav

Actually, most of the Iraq war engagements that are going on now are at short ranges, where the long-range accuracy of the AK isn’t an issue. Because it’s an urban environment with many things to hide behind, penetrating power tends to be more crucial than accuracy. Even the thin sheetmetal of a modern car can help to defend an attacker from the relatively lightweight 5.56, where the heavier 7.62 in the AK will tear through it and kill the attacker.

In an urban combat situation, you want the heaviest slug you can manage, coupled with the shortest barrel possible. This gives the soldier both maneuverability and penetrating power. By moving to the M16, the Iraqi army is adopting a longer rifle with a lighter slug.

The M16 is a good weapon for combat out in the open countryside, but that’s not where the war in Iraq is being fought. It’s a weapon that was designed to fight against the Soviets across the fields of Europe, not the Mohammed twins firing out of a moving car 50 feet away.


23 posted on 06/05/2007 7:36:15 PM PDT by Arthalion
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To: labette
Provided our friends remember how important cleanliness is in their few days of training.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Clean is the keyword in this case,as you know,,,
The first time some guy has to go prone in a sandy area,
he gets his own private lil’sandstorm from the blast from the flash-supressor,,,ain’t no way around it,,,

I’ve fired quite a few types at the local range where me and some friends go every so often,,,one guy has near
$3,000 invested in his(M.O.A.rifle)very nice gun,,,fancy
“Bull Barrel” et al,,,But,,,like you said,,,That ain’t combat...;0)

24 posted on 06/05/2007 7:42:29 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: ASC2006
FYI
25 posted on 06/05/2007 7:45:50 PM PDT by Chgogal (Vote Al Qaeda. Vote Democrat.)
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To: x1stcav

When our ship went down to IV Corp to support riverine ops, we fired the M-16 as we got ready to be on station and I didn’t notice much difference between it and the Remington Nylon 66 .22 cal my dad gave me. Then I saw one of the Seawolf gunners fire his M-14. Right then I said I got to get me one of those. Well, it took thirty years, but I have a Springfield Armory M-1A. You just brush the trigger and it sends the bullet into the black every time.


26 posted on 06/05/2007 7:50:14 PM PDT by Retain Mike
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To: Arthalion

We may be talking in the same general direction. I recognize the need for a shorter-barreled .30 calibre rifle.

I’m not certain the M16 was designed to fight the Soviets in the open fields of Europe. The brass at the time (late 50’s) was against its adoption. I think it was the beneficiary of the Air Force looking for a shorter, lighter weapon for some of its personnel and the convergence of the need for the same type of weapon for what was then the new concept in the Army of airmobiity. As I remeber, the 1st Air Cav was the first major unit deployed in the summer of ‘65 with the AR15/M16 as its standard issue weapon.

For what it’s worth, Mauser, Browning, Garand, Kalashinikov, and Eugene Stoner were the firearms deisgners of all times.


27 posted on 06/05/2007 8:03:47 PM PDT by x1stcav (If you continually have to say you support the troops, you probably don't.)
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To: trd6478
who cares if they arent american

Plenty of us.

28 posted on 06/05/2007 8:05:44 PM PDT by chesty_puller (USMC 70-73 3MAF VN 70-71 US Army 75-79 3d Inf Old Guard)
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To: OldPossum

Do you think you could take a minute and think about what you just wrote?


29 posted on 06/05/2007 8:12:11 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: Chgogal

Thanks for the ping


30 posted on 06/05/2007 9:44:54 PM PDT by ASC2006
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To: Shooter 2.5

(snicker)...;0)


31 posted on 06/05/2007 9:47:52 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: trd6478

Polish Tantal Beryl’s would work. They take 5.56mm NATO and operate similar to the AK, thus requiring little new training for the Iraqi forces.


32 posted on 06/05/2007 10:37:09 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: Marine_Uncle

What the Iraqi Army badly needs is medium and heavy weapons like al-Qaeda and the Madhi Army has.

Of the three biggest (non-Western) armed groups in Iraq the Iraqi Army is the most outgunned of the three.


33 posted on 06/05/2007 10:54:22 PM PDT by ASC2006
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

If their goal is to prevent ammo stealing, they will be sadly dissappointed. The Iranians have a 5.56mm NATO rifle that they have been smuggling into Iraq.


34 posted on 06/05/2007 11:12:34 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
"....and be photographed with the serial number of his new M-16."

American troops are held responsible for their weapons, don't know why it should be different anywhere else.

35 posted on 06/05/2007 11:49:59 PM PDT by cookcounty (No journalist ever won a prize for reporting the facts. --Telling big stories? Now that's a hit.)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

AK-47 is less accurate than M-16. Maintenance is a problem for M-16, and less power, but more accurate than AK-47. More accuracy means less chance to shoot again and hit a civilian.


36 posted on 06/06/2007 6:22:31 AM PDT by Wiz
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To: ASC2006

Agree. They are outgunned.


37 posted on 06/06/2007 12:06:31 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle
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To: Wiz
AK-47 is less accurate than M-16. Maintenance is a problem for M-16, and less power, but more accurate than AK-47. More accuracy means less chance to shoot again and hit a civilian.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is a myth that I can dispel,,,the M-16 type and the AK are near dead even punching paper with good Boxer primed
ammo,,,this is from a bench-rest of course,,,in combat you would never be able to tell the difference,,,the.223 runs out of gas at 300yards even with the “new” 60gr.bullet,,,
the AK has a flip-up sight that runs out to 1000m. to be used as an “area fire” weapon,,,that said,,,you do know the M-16s of today have a 3 shot burst or single shot selector.
JMHO,,,from what I’ve seen of the “Iraq Off-Hand” shooting style(held overhead)most of them need a Shotgun !!...LOL;0)
38 posted on 06/06/2007 12:36:09 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Great ... send them north to fight off the Turks now.


39 posted on 06/06/2007 12:43:26 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Killing all of your enemies without mercy is the only sure way of sleeping soundly at night.)
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To: x1stcav
Before or after he’d been hit with the 10 rounds of 556?

After; and you could easily argue that those 10 rounds accounted for the guy falling, not the shot by the M-14.

And I'm simply repeating what I was told. Maybe I was being naive in accepting this account.

Thank you for your courtesy in the way you addressed the matter. Now i'll get to the one who decided to post a smart-ass remark to me, shooter 2.5.

40 posted on 06/06/2007 6:47:22 PM PDT by OldPossum
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To: Shooter 2.5
Do you think you could take a minute and think about what you just wrote?

OK, Mr. Cute. Why don't you give a specific reference instead of such a oblique, rather smart-assed way of addressing me.

I don't know what you're talking about (and that opens me up to your saying that the OldPossum doesn't know what he's talking about). And that would be true, I'm not knowledgeable on military rifles (but I did serve three years in the Army and qualified with the M-1 Garand and the M-1 Carbine...didn't really care about anything except qualifying).

I just thought I would post what I thought was an interesting comment by a guy I had known for some time and who I didn't think would s--- me, Didn't think I would be critiqued on such an insignificant matter, but then I think about the significant population of FR know-it-alls, I should have known I'd hear from someone like you.

Now, why don't you summon up all the courtesy that you can muster and address the question in a civilized, polite manner? Otherwise, I think I'll just go to another thread.

41 posted on 06/06/2007 7:01:27 PM PDT by OldPossum
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68

See post 41. Amplify on your “snicker”. That is, if you are capable of anything beyond grunts.


42 posted on 06/06/2007 7:12:19 PM PDT by OldPossum
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To: OldPossum
See post 41. Amplify on your “snicker”. That is, if you are capable of anything beyond grunts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Howdy Possum,,,I think some "SQUID" was pullin' yer' leg,,, LOL,,,They been known to do that,,,My Point,,,10 rounds in the chest tells us the target was inside of 50 yards,,, At that range the .223 bullet is still at 2500fps or so,,, ONE .223 bullet to the chest at that range will have an exit wound the size of your fist,,,FWIW,,,I have been "Punchin' Paper" over 50years now,,,Handloading for 30years, Nam 67-68,,,I've seen "targets" hit at that range,,, It's a mess,,,NOBODY had to be shot with an M-14,,, (I carried one) The first time I heard a story like that it was a 30cal. carbine and an M-1 Garrand(no foolin')...;0) Image and video hosting by TinyPic
43 posted on 06/06/2007 8:01:05 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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