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Science Becoming a Religion
Telegraph ^ | June 10, 2007 | ReasonMcLucus

Posted on 06/10/2007 6:38:21 PM PDT by kathsua

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To: Fester Chugabrew

“Your definition of “faith” remains self-devised. Faith rarely rests upon “no evidence.” Such faith is typically qualified as “blind.””

I suggest you read the Christian existentialist, Soren Kierkegaard, who over a couple hundred years ago, essentially coined the term “leap of faith.” In a nutshell, he concluded that (1) religion, and Christianity in particular, are irrational, but (2) nevertheless advocated believing in both anyway on “faith.” He was smart enough at least to recognize (1) even if he was being silly in (2).


51 posted on 06/10/2007 10:08:31 PM PDT by BuckeyeForever
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To: Christopher Lincoln
Nothing in the research on fruit flies in any way refutes evolution...

That's what I mean and what people mean about evolution being a pseudoscience. If total disproofs like that can be thus just totally shrugged off on a perpetual basis by the true believers, then you have to view whatever it is they're talking about as unfalsifiable (at least to them) and thus a pseudoscience by definition.

52 posted on 06/11/2007 4:14:37 AM PDT by rickdylan
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To: BuckeyeForever
Why should one accept Soren Kierkegaard as the ultimate authority on objective reality? While he may have attributed the phrase “leap of faith” in particular to the Christian religion, it can be applied as well to many fields in the practice of science. I repeat: faith is not typically “blind.”
53 posted on 06/11/2007 4:30:09 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: M203M4
Beware the politicization of science and religion. In both cases, the outcome is corruption of truth - profane truth in the former, divine truth in the latter.

The education system has largely failed to get this concept ingrained - all science is tentative. All descriptions and explanations of physical observation are tentative. The scientific method, if properly followed, is nothing but a way of most honestly describing the physical world around us based on the limited data available. Every physical description accrued using the scientific method is open to modification (or supplantation) in the face of new data.

When science is politicized, this natural process (good theories persisting with modification, and poor theories dying off and being replaced outright) is threatened, and poor theories end up being insulated from criticism, preventing improvement which would naturally arise from the scientific method. It is more like a welfare-state for bad science than science "turning into religion" (though the latter can also happen - see global warming).


Well said and worth repeating.
54 posted on 06/11/2007 5:03:15 AM PDT by pjd
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To: kathsua

GW is clearly an example where politics has so taken over research that the whole field is taking on religious overtones. But I think that takeover is temporary. The nature of science is that it does self-correct.


55 posted on 06/11/2007 5:05:38 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: BuckeyeForever
Nothing funny about eternity for some. One’s eternal home will be a reward or punishment and the choice is yours - luck as nothing to do with it. Calling God’s Words a myth - you made your choice. But, then again, why would you want to spend eternity - it has no end - with God who you don’t believe. As every action has a consequence, so does your anti-God, anti-Christ stance.

Therefore, eternity should be no laughing matter for you. Some people plan for retirement which may equal 10 or 20 years or it may never manifest but don’t give one serious thought about where they will spend forever and ever. The soul never dies - it’s a spirit. On judgment day, you can’t plead ignorance because you were given every opportunity to know God’s Truth by His mercy. Hell is no myth. But for the grace of God, your next moment could be your last and that is something ‘you’ can’t control.

In the meantime, enjoy God’s glorious creations - the sun, moon, stars, air, the day, the night, the grass/trees, and all his natural food and your family and give thanks to Our Almighty Supernatural God.

Calling God’s Word mythical is the height of arrogance. You enjoy His creations but deny The Creator. Remember, The Creator has the right of ‘recall’ - so thank Him for this day that He has ‘given’ you.

56 posted on 06/11/2007 6:37:35 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: kathsua

To play the devil’s advocate, let me tell you that it’d illustrate better how science could degenerate into the realm of religion and philosophy by citing modern physics instead of the usual tired argument of “evolution ain’t science but religion stuff”.

Argue how SUSY or super string theories or quantum gravity are so far ahead of their experimental peers, they are no better than philosophical or religious musings of bearded old men in their citadels. You’d gain more followers in the “science is religion” camp by doing so.


57 posted on 06/11/2007 6:40:36 AM PDT by jc101
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To: rickdylan
So one example of a species showing no signs of evolving over a small period of time (and your experiment does nothing to show that it is generations that matter more than time) means that no species evolved over any period of time?

You call THAT an absolute contradictory proof?!?
You clearly do not understand the scientific method.

58 posted on 06/11/2007 7:56:20 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: kathsua

bump for later reading


59 posted on 06/11/2007 12:37:05 PM PDT by Kevmo (We need to get away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party ~Duncan Hunter)
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To: Teacher317
"... your experiment does nothing to show that it is generations that matter more than time."

I'll bite.

In what way is time, in and of itself, a creative force...

60 posted on 06/11/2007 2:59:13 PM PDT by csense
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To: csense
In what way is time, in and of itself, a creative force...

Time wounds all heels?

61 posted on 06/11/2007 6:04:01 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: csense
"In what way is time, in and of itself, a creative force..."

I took that point to be directed at the obvious variances over time e.g., cumulative mutative effects of cosmic rays.

Man, these anti-evolution rants are just plain bizarre.

62 posted on 06/11/2007 6:41:22 PM PDT by Nova
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To: Coyoteman

LOL....Nice to see that you’re still here. We may not agree on much, but I respect your commitment to your profession.


63 posted on 06/11/2007 9:58:16 PM PDT by csense
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To: Nova
I took that point to be directed at the obvious variances over time e.g., cumulative mutative effects of cosmic rays.

Obviously...but with respect to the argument at hand, time is merely a metric rather than a mechanism.

Man, these anti-evolution rants are just plain bizarre.

What is truly bizarre, is that some people who claim to speak in the name of science, simply do not understand the distinction between the two...

64 posted on 06/11/2007 10:11:44 PM PDT by csense
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To: presently no screen name

“The soul never dies - it’s a spirit. “

Is it like Casper the Ghost?

Aren’t you going to get a little bored sitting at the right hand of the throne for all of eternity? You won’t even be able to taste a Snickers bar ever again. You’ll have to pass the “time” trying to communicate with the spirits in your “area,” but then, they won’t have anything to do either.


65 posted on 06/11/2007 10:20:41 PM PDT by BuckeyeForever
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To: BuckeyeForever
WOW! How little you know. I’ll be able to eat all I want. We get a supernatural body just like Christ had when He was resurrected. He ate with His disciples. You are not only deceived about this earth but about heaven, also. It’s called heaven for a reason.

Being deceived about life in general here and heaven, you are probably deceived about hell, also, and bought the lie it doesn’t exist. Let’s see, God is not who He says He is, heaven is boring and there is no hell. Yep, just what the evil one wants you to believe - he done his job, he’s gotcha! Sad thing is - you are a willing participant and arrogant and gleeful in your blindness. You think ‘this life’ is all there is. If you believe heaven is boring, you believe there is a heaven - why only half the picture? Just like there is good and evil, right and wrong, there is a counterpart to heaven and that is hell.

One thing is certain, without knowing God, one lives in fear and cannot be truly happy and in peace because we were made with a void that can only be filled with God’s love and until that happens, you will always be searching for something else to make you happy and never attain it.

66 posted on 06/12/2007 2:46:34 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: csense
In what way is time, in and of itself, a creative force

Pardon me, I was typing pretty quickly. I did not mean to imply that time itself caused evolution.

How about I re-write my comment this way: "your experiment does nothing to show that it is generations that matter more than any other potential factor."

However, proponents here continue to fail to note how that single fruit fly experiement proves anything meaningful, other than the fact that a certain group of flies didn't evolve under a specific set of conditions. They merely attacked my poor word choice.

67 posted on 06/12/2007 6:56:04 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: kathsua
Bad headline. The real problem is that people, including a few scientists, are taking an increasingly religious attitude toward what science uncovers for us. Before global warming became an issue, I never heard scientists using the term ‘believe’ about any aspect of science.
68 posted on 06/12/2007 7:09:43 AM PDT by BlazingArizona
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To: presently no screen name
God's Word is the only truth there is.

Perhaps you are unaware that there are religions other than your own.

69 posted on 06/12/2007 7:14:32 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Nappy is the new N-word.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy
Perhaps you are unaware that it’s NEVER about religion - it’s all about a relationship with the God of the bible and Our Savior, Jesus. Jesus didn’t start a ‘religion’ when He walked the earth, He came to die for our sins. Who believes on His death and resurrection follow His teachings.

Religion is man-made. There is only one truth - God’s Word and Jesus is the living Word of God. The path to Him is narrow and straight but the path to destruction is wide.

Lastly, it’s not my ‘own’ truth - it’s God’s Truth. I only have His Truths. ‘God’s Word is true and everyman a liar.’

70 posted on 06/12/2007 8:02:06 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: kathsua; gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me

71 posted on 06/12/2007 9:00:10 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free.)
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To: kathsua
Science does seem to be overrated at times.

The problem isn't science but it's misuse.

72 posted on 06/12/2007 9:16:05 PM PDT by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet)
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To: Coyoteman

“And I guarantee you that we can indeed observe the past.”

Incorrect statement. Archaeologists can observe the fossil record of plants and animals that lived in the past.


73 posted on 06/12/2007 9:33:16 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: presently no screen name

You wrote: “WOW! How little you know. I’ll be able to eat all I want. We get a supernatural body just like Christ had when He was resurrected. He ate with His disciples.”

BF: You are confused. If Christ ate with his disciples after being resurrected, his body was not supernatural. By the way, when Christ appeared to his disciples post-resurrection, what was he wearing? Did he bring some supernatural clothes, or did he show up naked?

You wrote: “You are not only deceived about this earth but about heaven, also. It’s called heaven for a reason.”

BF: Sorry, didn’t follow that. Why is it called “heaven”?

You wrote: “Being deceived about life in general here and heaven, you are probably deceived about hell, also, and bought the lie it doesn’t exist. Let’s see, God is not who He says He is, heaven is boring and there is no hell. Yep, just what the evil one wants you to believe - he done his job, he’s gotcha!”

BF: You are a funny guy.

You wrote: “Sad thing is - you are a willing participant and arrogant and gleeful in your blindness. You think ‘this life’ is all there is. If you believe heaven is boring, you believe there is a heaven - why only half the picture? Just like there is good and evil, right and wrong, there is a counterpart to heaven and that is hell.”

BF: You are confused again. Heaven would be boring if it existed, but it doesn’t exist. Neither does hell.

You wrote: “One thing is certain, without knowing God, one lives in fear and cannot be truly happy and in peace because we were made with a void that can only be filled with God’s love and until that happens, you will always be searching for something else to make you happy and never attain it.”

BF: I don’t live in fear and I am (usually) truly happy and in peace. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am voidless. As for you, you must be the truly fearful and/or unhappy one, not having even a decent screen name and all.


74 posted on 06/12/2007 10:16:35 PM PDT by BuckeyeForever
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To: kathsua
Religion has truths that are to be accepted without question.

Times must be tough at the Telegraph, now that they have fifth graders writing articles for them.

75 posted on 06/13/2007 5:12:50 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: kathsua
"Religion has truths that are to be accepted without question."

Though Israel means to struggle with God while islam to submit.

I argue with God, constantly.

76 posted on 06/13/2007 6:35:15 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Coyoteman

Coyoteman - Im on your side - seems like the creationists have made more of a religion of calling those who uphold scientific standards the bad guys than most scientists who not only hold the creation in awe but delight in its discovery. These are the same people who are happy to receive the multitude of benefits recieved from science, yet will bite the hand that gives it to them, calling them ‘unbelievers’ merely because they don’t put on the same performance they do. They can’t refute your definitions and like their reading of the Bible, select only those parts that appear to argue in their favor. The ones calling ‘evolution’ a faith are the ones dealing in lies and have made it a religion to make evolution into a religion more so than those who agree with the scientific observations in the theory.


77 posted on 06/13/2007 6:52:11 AM PDT by Alkhin (star dust contemplating star dust)
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To: ffusco
“And I guarantee you that we can indeed observe the past.”

Incorrect statement. Archaeologists can observe the fossil record of plants and animals that lived in the past.

Archaeologists deal with past cultures. Paleontologists and other scientists deal with fossils.

Now that you know what an archaeologist is, care to tell me again what it is we do?

78 posted on 06/13/2007 7:00:33 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: BuckeyeForever
You are confused. If Christ ate with his disciples after being resurrected, his body was not supernatural

You are deceived and that deception has led you to believe only what you understand. And that's arrogance and pridefulness to deny the supernatural - you think man is supreme and nothing is above it. Since you can't understand how it happens then it's an impossibility to you. Narrow thinking. To deny that the supernatural exists is merely dumb thinking - limiting yourself only to acknowledge just what you can see, hear, thinking and touch. Talk about no thought beyond your stinking nose! Jesus' body was supernatural and your thought is where did the clothes come from! LOL More 'natural, mere mortal' mindset. The power of the Holy Spirit is limitless.

Since you deny the supernatural Awesomeness of God, The Creator - no wonder you only knowledge is what some dead person, your god, said and thought - same limited mindset.

You are confused again. Heaven would be boring if it existed

I'm confused? Think again. You deny the existence of heaven - YET - you claim to know it's boring. You put a negative on something you claim doesn't even exist. Garbage in, garbage out.

truly fearful and/or unhappy one, not having even a decent screen name and all.

On the contrary, sir. I have witnessed the supernatural, I am most peaceful knowing this life here is not the end all, that I understand a few years, 30, 50, 90 years here compared to eternity - where to place my importance. Knowing my life here is not a crap-shoot, it has meaning and purpose and I decide where I spend eternity by my choices. Yet while here can live in supernatural peace along with the grace and favor of God that He bestows on His children. I just don't think this - I know it, I experienced it. You can never have what you don't even expect.

I don't believe you are one that is in a position to know what is decent, you can't even think beyond your nose. You place your decision on what is decent on a screen name - how truly juvenile and small narrow thinking. But it just confirms your mindset.

BuckeyeForever

Just how long is 'Forever' to you?

Remember - Just as there is good vs. evil, right vs wrong, there is a heaven and hell. Like you choose good over evil, and right over wrong by your choices, you, also, choose heaven or hell by your choices. By not admitting they exist, you already made that choice.
79 posted on 06/13/2007 7:00:47 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Coyoteman
Now that you know what an archaeologist is, care to tell me again what it is we do?

You use the tools of God and deny His very existence. You dig in His earth, eat His fruit/herbs/vegatables/meat/fish/grain He provided, you breathe His air, you expect his law of gravity to keep you grounded, and you marvel at 'your findings' - yet deny The Creator of it all.
80 posted on 06/13/2007 7:17:03 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
You use the tools of God and deny His very existence. You dig in His earth, eat His fruit/herbs/vegatables/meat/fish/grain He provided, you breathe His air, you expect his law of gravity to keep you grounded, and you marvel at 'your findings' - yet deny The Creator of it all.

One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973


81 posted on 06/13/2007 7:23:29 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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Boring Thread Placemarker


82 posted on 06/13/2007 7:37:11 AM PDT by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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this topic has nearly reached the level of...
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...but it'll be a while before it becomes a...
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

83 posted on 06/13/2007 12:13:23 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Time heals all wounds, particularly when they're not yours. Profile updated June 8, 2007.)
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To: Coyoteman
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh. Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

As usual, coyoteman, you use 'man' to tell you how to think and respond. It exposes low thinking and lack.

Just to prevent you from busting your gut from laughter, it's not 'my theology', it's God's Word. Like you quote 'man's' word as true, I quote the Supernatural God's Word as true. Man is my equal - I cannot learn from man on what they didn't create - only their opinion. Since everyone has an opinion, they are a dime a dozen, thus, valueless when it comes to truth.

God's truths reigns and will never change. He is Supernatural. He is the same yesterday, today and forever - totally unlike man. If I didn't know God, I'd be just as ignorant as you and rely on lowly man for 'their' truth - and that's desperation.

Now enjoy your day and night - enjoy the air/oxygen we need to exist, the sun, stars, clouds, rain, water, food, trees, beaches, 'your' findings that Our God created for His Glory and our enjoyment and need. Without the life He gave you, you couldn't enjoy any of it. This earth can't give you anything of value that God didn't create first.

Be careful of what you laugh at (because 'man' said it was ok) it might come back and bite you where and when you least expect. There is always an opposite effect.
84 posted on 06/13/2007 12:55:20 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: lostlakehiker; kathsua; Aetius; Alamo-Girl; AndrewC; Asphalt; Aussie Dasher; AnalogReigns; ...
"science can so observe some aspects of the distant past. Light has a speed. Light from far away started long ago."

You lack understanding of basic cosmology.

When God expanded the universe (as a 'white hole') he expanded time along with it. The simpleton's assumption that light from distant sources took a long time getting here disregards General Relativity completely. Read Dr. D. Russel Humphreys' "Starlight and Time" (or view the video if you're too poor a reader) to get an understanding of what really happened, and why the universe appears vastly older than it is to the uninformed.

For those that have a grasp of math, the book contains the equations that prove the model beyond the level to which the 'big bang' is cobbled together. That the universe has expanded is a known fact, and so is the expansion of time. Get educated, and don't be propagandized by those anxious to take advantage of your ignorance.

85 posted on 06/13/2007 8:19:13 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: lostlakehiker; rickdylan
"Evolution is real science."

Evolution is nothing but religiously protected dogma. Our taxes are used to protect evolution's dogma from exposure. That is all the fight is about.

86 posted on 06/13/2007 8:23:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: Coyoteman; editor-surveyor

You’ve just replaced God with science. You still have faith the system works and trust practitioners of it. It’s just a different object of devotion.


87 posted on 06/13/2007 8:25:18 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Thanks for the ping!


88 posted on 06/13/2007 8:28:19 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: editor-surveyor

Scripture states that God stretched out the heavens like a curtain.

At a much later date, science came to the conclusion that the universe expanded.

Interesting that science eventually comes to the same conclusions that Scripture has stated thousands of years before, and scientists fight if kicking and screaming.


89 posted on 06/13/2007 8:29:26 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: editor-surveyor

You’ve got it about evolution. The the entire thing about black holes, white holes, dark matter, dark energy, relativistic time and everything else is basically munged just about as badly as evolution. All of the major untestable theories in science are going to have to be redone.


90 posted on 06/13/2007 8:31:06 PM PDT by rickdylan
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To: Coyoteman; Radix
"Dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without evidence."

There is evolution. Of course, it requires billions of tax dollars to keep this religion alive, since most people are intelligent enough to see through it.

91 posted on 06/13/2007 8:31:10 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: Coyoteman

Observe the fossil record and posit theories about how these organizms lived and died,their diet, environment, social structure, culture.


92 posted on 06/13/2007 8:31:28 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: rickdylan; metmom

Humphreys’ model is not untestable. It stands up to all observations without any need for things that have not been observed, like dark matter. It also has no argument with any part of God’s word.


93 posted on 06/13/2007 8:36:36 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: ffusco; Coyoteman
"Observe the fossil record and posit theories about how these organizms lived and died,their diet, environment, social structure, culture"

Oh he will! He'll post a jillion links to bafflegab that only a fool like himself would bother to read, just to have company in his confusion and darkness.

94 posted on 06/13/2007 8:41:23 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Of course, it requires billions of tax dollars to keep this religion alive, since most people are intelligent enough to see through it.

Yup, and they even have to use the force of the judiciary to ensure its monopoly in the public school system and people still know better in spite of it.

95 posted on 06/13/2007 8:49:44 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
You’ve just replaced God with science.

You are still clinging to some religious beliefs which have been disproved by science. And, that science is verifiable, which divine revelation is not.

Perhaps the best example of this is the "global flood," an idea which creationist geologists gave up on about 1830. Since then, the evidence against a global flood ca. 4350 years ago has continued to mount, while evidence supporting such a flood has dwindled until just scripture is left.

Believe what you want, but don't call it science.

96 posted on 06/13/2007 8:50:41 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: presently no screen name
Evolution is anti-God. Nothing real about it.

There seem to be fewer and fewer of us at FR who see that. It is indeed a diabolical way to make people see Scripture as irrelevant and incorrect and quaint.

97 posted on 06/13/2007 8:50:53 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: presently no screen name
“You dig in His earth, eat His fruit/herbs/vegatables/meat/fish/grain...”

Wait 'til He finds out I drank His booze and chased His women. Yikes!

98 posted on 06/13/2007 8:53:50 PM PDT by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now at home in your spare time!)
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To: BuckeyeForever

It’s my prayer that you discover the truth of Jesus before you die. He wasn’t a mere prophet or wise man, you know....


99 posted on 06/13/2007 8:54:20 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: ffusco
My post dealt with what archaeoligsts do. You posted:

Observe the fossil record and posit theories about how these organizms lived and died,their diet, environment, social structure, culture.

I have never encountered the fossil record while doing archaeology. I work in the US, and at the time periods we deal with, fossilization has not yet occurred. We do deal with "how these organizms lived and died,their diet, environment, social structure, culture," but it is humans and human cultures we are dealing with, not fossils.

100 posted on 06/13/2007 8:55:32 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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