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States rebel against Real ID Act
Lawbean.com ^ | 6/11/2007 | staff

Posted on 06/12/2007 9:38:20 AM PDT by George W. Bush

Four states have passed laws that reject federal rules regarding a national identification system. This casts serious doubt on the future of the 2005 Real ID Act that goes into effect in December 2009. New Hampshire and Oklahoma joined Montana and Washington state in the passage of statutes that refute guidelines set forth in the Act. However, these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes or accessing federal buildings. In addition to these four states, members of the Idaho legislature intentionally left out money in the budget to comply with the Act.

The Real ID Act raises serious privacy concerns, but there is disagreement about whether the Act will actually institute a national identification card system or not. The new law only sets forth national standards, but leaves the issuance of cards and the maintenance of databases in state hands. Some claim that this does not constitute a true national ID system, and may even forestall the arrival of national ID. Yet others argue that this is a trivial distinction, and that the new cards are in fact national ID cards, thanks to the uniform national standards created by the AAMVA and the linking of state databases.

The actions by these states are increasingly putting pressure on Congress and the Department of Homeland Security to change or repeal the law. The Wisconsin State Journal has an incredibly good analysis of the mess. They write:

States have rebelled at the $14 billion in costs the act imposes on states, as well as worries that the new security system will invade residents’ privacy and create what amounts to a national ID card.

On Capitol Hill, two bills would repeal the law, one co-sponsored by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt. However, an amendment to the immigration bill now being debated in the U.S. Senate would ratchet up the consequences for states that fail to comply with Real ID. The Senate’s proposed immigration law would require job applicants to verify their citizenship to employers using a driver’s license that meets Real ID standards or with a passport.

Be sure to check out FAQ: How Real ID will affect you.



TOPICS: Extended News; US: Idaho; US: New Hampshire; US: Oklahoma
KEYWORDS: healthypeople2010; privacy; readid; realid; realidact; rfid
Resistance to RealID continues to grow.
1 posted on 06/12/2007 9:38:21 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush

I just love when states reject illegal federal laws. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.


2 posted on 06/12/2007 9:44:58 AM PDT by AntiFed
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To: George W. Bush

So what’s going to happen? If more states rebel against Real ID, will residents of those states have to get passports and use that as an approved federal ID? And if that happens, aren’t we then going to have a national ID in the form of needing passports for domestic travel and entering federal buildings?


3 posted on 06/12/2007 9:47:02 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: Dilbert San Diego
“So what’s going to happen? If more states rebel against Real ID, will residents of those states have to get passports and use that as an approved federal ID? And if that happens, aren’t we then going to have a national ID in the form of needing passports for domestic travel and entering federal buildings?”

Where do you see us needing a passport for domestic travel? As for federal buildings, why sweat it? I’ve needed to go to a federal building rather rarely, and I’ve got a military ID if I ever again NEED to do so. We just need to draft everyone, and solve the problem.

4 posted on 06/12/2007 9:51:42 AM PDT by Old Student (We have a name for the people who think indiscriminate killing is fine. They're called "The Bad Guys)
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To: Dilbert San Diego
And if that happens, aren’t we then going to have a national ID in the form of needing passports for domestic travel and entering federal buildings?

"Your papers, please."
5 posted on 06/12/2007 9:54:35 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: Dilbert San Diego
It makes me sick to see Citizens of the Great Country required to provide more information than illegal immigrants. The Real ID will have RFID so the government will know your whereabouts at all times. This will become mandatory as early as May 2008. The illegals have it make in Amer`ka.
6 posted on 06/12/2007 9:55:07 AM PDT by Orange1998
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To: George W. Bush
Resistance to RealID continues to grow.

It's about time!

7 posted on 06/12/2007 9:56:24 AM PDT by SUSSA
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To: George W. Bush

Why the resistance? Isn’t RealID a Good Thing?


8 posted on 06/12/2007 9:57:38 AM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: TChris

Depend who your talking too. The government loves it and the average Joe doesn’t. You be the judge.


9 posted on 06/12/2007 10:00:19 AM PDT by Orange1998
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To: TChris
No, it's a Bad Thing. Honestly, some people would, if told by Bush that there was a Muslim under their beds, demand that he implement a full Soviet-era police state and abolish the Constitution entirely.

Notice in the article how it is cemented into place with the Senate's immigration bill. It won't just be the illegals and the guest workers who will be forced to carry these.

After this, they'll want to chip you, probably subcutaneous RFID.
10 posted on 06/12/2007 10:03:22 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: AntiFed
I just love when states reject illegal federal laws.

Now they just need to threaten to jail the BATF people on sight for interference in state laws.

11 posted on 06/12/2007 10:03:41 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Killing all of your enemies without mercy is the only sure way of sleeping soundly at night.)
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To: TChris
Why the resistance? Isn’t RealID a Good Thing?
Well, what do you know about it? Or rather, what have you heard about it?
12 posted on 06/12/2007 10:05:56 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: George W. Bush
No, it's a Bad Thing. Honestly, some people would, if told by Bush that there was a Muslim under their beds, demand that he implement a full Soviet-era police state and abolish the Constitution entirely.

I'm thinking from the illegal alien angle, and how easily they obtain forged documentation, and some states issue them driver's licenses, and those items can allow them to VOTE...

I don't know the particulars of RealID, but I think there are some genuine ID issues to consider.

I love the idea of every American being free to come and go and exercise their rights without such an intrusion. But how do we tell who is really a citizen when it comes time to vote? I think the right to vote becomes very diluted if there's no control over who can vote.

13 posted on 06/12/2007 10:08:13 AM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: TChris
Isn’t RealID a Good Thing?
LOL...Exclusive: Federal REAL ID Act Does Not Create National Identity
Card:
That’s a Good Thing

14 posted on 06/12/2007 10:10:32 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: AntiFed

Nothing illegal about it. The federal government has the right to say what forms of ID that is acceptable to the federal government.


15 posted on 06/12/2007 10:16:57 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: TChris

Spotlight on Surveillance
March 2007:
Federal REAL ID Proposal Threatens Privacy and Security

When it created the Department of Homeland Security, Congress made clear in the enabling legislation that the agency could not create a national ID system.[48] In September 2004, then-Department of Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge reiterated, “[t]he legislation that created the Department of Homeland Security was very specific on the question of a national ID card. They said there will be no national ID card.”[49] The REAL ID Act creates a de facto national ID card.
The requirement for non-REAL ID driver’s license or ID card to have explicit “invalid for federal purposes” designations turns this “voluntary” card into a mandatory national ID card. Anyone with a different license or ID card would be instantly suspicious. It will be easy for insurance companies, credit card companies, even video stores, to demand a REAL ID driver’s license or ID card in order to receive services. Significant delay, complication and possibly harassment or discrimination would fall upon those without a REAL ID card.

I suggest you read that article. It covers a lot of info.

16 posted on 06/12/2007 10:24:58 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: taxcontrol

Up until now, the feds have accepted the state issued IDs as sufficient.

I’ve heard rumor about this, that states might issue 2 types of IDs. They would issue ones that meet the fed requirements and then another that would meet the lesser state requirements.


17 posted on 06/12/2007 10:25:35 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: taxcontrol
The federal government has the right to say what forms of ID that is acceptable to the federal government.
Apparently the federal government thinks it has the right to say what form of ID is acceptable period.
18 posted on 06/12/2007 10:27:22 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: TChris
Why the resistance? Isn’t RealID a Good Thing?

All laws have two uses. One for which the law was intended and one for which it was not. What will be the unintended consequence of Real ID?
.
19 posted on 06/12/2007 10:32:08 AM PDT by radioman
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To: taxcontrol

“federal government has the right to say what forms of ID that is acceptable to the federal government”

Lemme guess. General welfare clause? lol


20 posted on 06/12/2007 10:37:12 AM PDT by AntiFed
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To: philman_36
It will be easy for insurance companies, credit card companies, even video stores, to demand a REAL ID driver’s license or ID card in order to receive services.

Yes, but those are private businesses. They could just as easily, and legally, make great demands of their customers now. But they don't.

Why should I believe they would begin mistreating their customers if the Real ID were implemented? What incentive would they have to do so?

It's a simple, and deceptive, practice to pursue scary trains of thought in considering what could happen as a consequence of this or that. But applying some cold, hard reality to those predictions is always a good idea.

My BS meter starts swinging over to the right when ever someone starts "what if"ing me with frightening possibilities when the real, direct effects of one choice or another aren't spooky enough.

(If I step outside today, I greatly increase the chances of being hit by a car or struck by lightening. Therefore, I should obviously stay inside all day to eliminate that risk!)

Personally, I don't see too much Eeeeeeeviiiiiillllll in the Real ID act at this point. My opinion could change in the future.

21 posted on 06/12/2007 10:40:51 AM PDT by TChris (The Republican Party is merely the Democrat Party's "away" jersey - Vox Day)
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To: Dilbert San Diego
I’ve heard rumor about this, that states might issue 2 types of IDs.
I'd take it as unsubstantiated runor. The thing is, the States don't want it because of the estimated costs to them.
REAL ID WILL COST STATES MORE THAN $11 BILLION
Why would they have both types of IDs if they're already complaining about the associated costs of having to swap over from the current IDs?
It seems to me that it's going to be one or the other, but certainly not both. It's simply not financially feasible.
22 posted on 06/12/2007 10:41:55 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: TChris
Personally, I don't see too much Eeeeeeeviiiiiillllll in the Real ID act at this point.
Well good for you.
My opinion could change in the future.
I won't be holding my breath. Your current lack of concern 'tells the tale' and you'll probably choose not to investigate it any further than you have to date, which appears to be not at all.
23 posted on 06/12/2007 10:47:27 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: George W. Bush

Resistance seems to be increasing on a lot of fronts, wouldn’t you agree???

Pick an issue...

Dubai Port Deal (successfully resisted)

Immigration reform (ongoing battle)

Trans Texas Corridor (postponed, delayed)

All of these in varying degrees of Federal involvement, and legislative opposition...Not to say that pressure from constituencies seems to be growing everyday to this goverment expansion...

Sometines I really have to wonder why these actually get far enough to where people like you and I get so angry at the ignoring of our will, that it makes them that much harder to deal with...

The phrase, “concent of the governed”, keeps coming to mind for some reason...;-)

Right???


24 posted on 06/12/2007 11:11:20 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: stevie_d_64
How about: border fence (stalled, delayed since May 12).

Looks like they completely abandoned it, thinking we wouldn't notice.

And I'll bet the major media, including Sean Hannity and O'Reilly will never report on it either.
25 posted on 06/12/2007 11:18:18 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: stevie_d_64
How about: border fence (stalled, delayed since May 12).

Looks like they completely abandoned it, thinking we wouldn't notice.

And I'll bet the major media, including Sean Hannity and O'Reilly will never report on it either.
26 posted on 06/12/2007 11:18:52 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: AntiFed

I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you! The socialist State of Washington rejecting and refusing to implement a facet of Central Planning.


27 posted on 06/12/2007 11:21:25 AM PDT by Parmy
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To: Dilbert San Diego; All

Hey!!

If shrub has his way,the only people who won’t need a real id will be people named Juan or Pedro!!


28 posted on 06/12/2007 11:25:03 AM PDT by djf (Bush's legacy: Way more worried about Iraqs borders than our own!!! A once great nation... sad...)
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To: George W. Bush

Yep...This is something that can be done, but was an empty shell that got a lot of Republicans elected (and re-elected) that wasn’t really going to be effectively implemented (constructed)...

We got, last time I heard was 3 miles so far built since that bill passed...

If the government (elected officials) is/are scared...I think they have every reason to be that way...

If it were up to me, I’d fire every single one of them, and tell them don’t ever come back...That’s even some of them that I like and know personally, and they would absolutely understand why I feel that way...I wish there were more of us out there that believe as I do...


29 posted on 06/12/2007 11:27:42 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: radioman
"What will be the unintended consequence of Real ID?"

Tagging gun owners by this card is an eventual certainty.

30 posted on 06/12/2007 11:28:34 AM PDT by gnarledmaw (I traded freedom for security and all I got were these damned shackles.)
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To: George W. Bush
Sean Hannity was pro-illegal alien before he was against it but his listeners and consevatives as whole rose up to slap him down.

As a mouthpiece that clearly doesnt even understand the background of the talking points hes issued, I suspect that, provided his listeners didnt revolt too quickly, he would eventually be against the fence, too.

31 posted on 06/12/2007 11:34:55 AM PDT by gnarledmaw (I traded freedom for security and all I got were these damned shackles.)
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To: Orange1998

Yes, a RFID will be placed in ID cards for FOREIGN VISITORS, i.e. Middle Eastern Muslims. I don’t have a problem with that, do you?? FYI, I have had a “National I.D. Card for many years now and quite proud of it. It is called a US Military Retired ID Card. Yes, it has a magnetic strip with all kinds of information on it and as far as I know, has never been “read” for any reason. Don’t screw up and no authority will demand the card. That’s my philosophy!


32 posted on 06/12/2007 11:48:30 AM PDT by supermop
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To: philman_36
Obviously you have not read the RealID act. The Act only stipulates what forms of ID are acceptable to the Federal Government.
33 posted on 06/13/2007 12:32:51 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: AntiFed
4th Amendment, reasonable search. 1st Amendment by inference, freedom of association.

Think in terms of micro to macro.
Do you have the right to require ID before someone enters your house? Does a business have the right to require ID before you are allowed to enter the business or purchase alcohol? Does a State have the right to set standards on what identification you have to provide before you are issued a state drivers license?

I would say that the answer to each question is yes. Likewise, the Federal Government has the right to demand military id before you are allowed to enter a military base. It has the right to demand proof of citizenship prior to allowing you to enter the country. And just as a State has the right to set standards on what is required to receive a driver’s license, the Federal government has the right to set the standards on what they will accept as form of identification for access to federal facilities and services.

What the Federal government does NOT have the right to do is to FORCE the states to stop issuing IDs. Nor do the Feds have the right to say that the states must universally adopt a set of standards. The REALID act does not do either. It allows States to continue to issue IDs using what ever standards the state wishes to use.

The Feds are only saying ... if you want your State's drivers license to be accepted by the Federal government, then it has to meet certain standards.

34 posted on 06/13/2007 12:45:09 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: radioman
What will be the unintended consequence of Real ID?

Brass-mesh lined wallets?

:P

-Bruce

35 posted on 06/13/2007 1:05:22 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Build the fence. Enforce the law.)
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To: taxcontrol
Apparently the federal government thinks it has the right to say what form of ID is acceptable period.
Obviously you have not read the RealID act.
You obviously are guessing.

The Act only stipulates what forms of ID are acceptable to the Federal Government.
The Act mandates what States must do to conform to specific standards the Federal government has now enacted.

Here is how one Federal agency reads things...
President Signs Public Law 109-13, the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005
P.L. 109-13 prohibits Federal agencies from accepting State-issued driver's licenses or identification cards unless such documents are determined to meet minimum security requirements. It sets forth issuance standards for such documents that require, among other things: (1) evidence that the applicant is lawfully present in the United States; and (2) issuance of temporary driver's licenses or identification cards to persons temporarily present that are valid only for their period of authorized stay (or for one year where the period of stay is indefinite).
Snip...Beginning 3 years after enactment, prohibits a Federal agency from accepting, for any official purpose, a State-issued driver's license or identification card unless the State is issuing driver's licenses and identification cards that conform to the standards specified in the new law.
Snip...These standards require a State
States must...
States must...
States must...
States are required...
States must...

Perhaps you need to review it...PUBLIC LAW 109–13—MAY 11, 2005
This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005’’.
DIVISION B—REAL ID ACT OF 2005 (starts at the bottom of page 81 of 93)
TITLE II—IMPROVED SECURITY FOR DRIVERS’ LICENSES AND PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARDS
SEC. 201. DEFINITIONS.
(3) OFFICIAL PURPOSE.—The term ‘‘official purpose’’ includes but is not limited to accessing Federal facilities, boarding federally regulated commercial aircraft, entering nuclear power plants, and any other purposes that the Secretary shall determine.

SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.
(a) MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL USE.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—Beginning 3 years after the date of theenactment of this division, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver’s license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.

And how about this little beauty...
(d) OTHER REQUIREMENTS (page 84 of 93)
(3) Subject each person applying for a driver’s license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture.

And then there is this...
(11) In any case in which the State issues a driver’s license or identification card that does not satisfy the requirements of this section, ensure that such license or identification card—

(A) clearly states on its face that it may not be accepted by any Federal agency for federal identification or any other official purpose; and

However, as I've shown, ‘‘official purpose’’ can mean almost any damned thing at all!

36 posted on 06/13/2007 6:04:19 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: gnarledmaw
Tagging gun owners by this card is an eventual certainty.

Without a doubt!
.
37 posted on 06/13/2007 8:32:53 AM PDT by radioman
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To: taxcontrol
What the Federal government does NOT have the right to do is to FORCE the states to stop issuing IDs. Nor do the Feds have the right to say that the states must universally adopt a set of standards. The REALID act does not do either

But it will. Mission creep gaurantees that.
.
38 posted on 06/13/2007 8:42:55 AM PDT by radioman
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To: taxcontrol
Well, I’m not sure I agree if they say that you have to have an ID acceptable to them before you can agree to work for someone for wages. They’re not even involved in that transaction.
39 posted on 06/14/2007 7:16:21 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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