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Unregulated Gun Shows--What Happens In Nevada Does Not Stay In Nevada! [BARF ALERT]
California Progress Report ^ | 6/12/07 | Bill Cavala

Posted on 06/13/2007 9:49:13 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim

California regulates gun sales between private parties that take place at “gun shows”. Neighboring Nevada does not. Now a recent academic study indicates that unregulated private transactions at Nevada gun shows are behind an apparent pipeline of guns used in crimes in California.

The study was made by Dr. Garen Wintemute who directs the University of California at Davis Violence and Prevention Research Program. It was based on two years of observations at more than 24 gun shows in California, Nevada and three other states.

70% of the dealers at the Nevada gun shows lacked Federal Firearms licenses.

Nevada does not require background checks or that records be kept on private party sales at gun shows – unlike California.

At least two dozen “straw” purchases – firearms bought by one person but intended for another “prohibited” purchaser – were observed.

California lawmakers – aware of this problem – moved to regulate its gun shows several years ago.

But in States like Nevada, the N.R.A. has been successful in blocking similar efforts. The result is that criminals evade California gun shows to make their purchases where the N.R.A. actions protect them.

The gun show promoter who staged these events was quoted as saying that California style regulation will “only punish law-abiding citizens”. How a background check “punishes” the law abiding is not made clear.

When pressed, the gun show operator grew adamant. “Do you really think these laws are going to do anything to slow (criminals) down?”, he asked. Well, they have forced criminals out of California gun shows and into Nevada. A federal law might drive them out of gun shows altogether.

70% of the dealers unlicensed. Over two dozen “straw” sales that put guns in the hands of ex-felons. 4000 gun shows each year in the U.S.A.

But gun show regulation somehow hurts the “law abiding”? While no law ever stands in the way of America’s brilliant criminal class?? The truth is that laws which help us sort out the criminals from the law abiding (through background checks) also Keep firearms out of the hands of the latter. Who would oppose that?

Unlicensed gun dealers. Unscrupulous gun manufacturers. Second Amendment extremists?

[Bill Cavala was Deputy Director of the Assembly Speaker’s Office of Member Services where he worked for over 30 years. He attended undergraduate and graduate school in the 1960’s and received a doctorate in political science at UC Berkeley. He taught political science at UC Berkeley during the 1970's while he worked part-time for the State Assembly.

Cavala left teaching at UC Berkeley and went to work for Assembly Speaker Willie Brown in 1981 until his tenure as Speaker ended in 1995, and he has worked for his five successors as Speaker up to and including Speaker Fabian Nunez.

Mr. Cavala manages election campaigns for Democratic candidates.]


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; US: California; US: Nevada
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; guns; secondamendment

1 posted on 06/13/2007 9:49:15 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: kiriath_jearim

Link to the “academic study” mentioned by Cavala is here:

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/newsroom/protected/index.html


2 posted on 06/13/2007 9:49:40 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: kiriath_jearim
70% of the dealers at the Nevada gun shows lacked Federal Firearms licenses

Because 70% OF THE DEALERS SELL TEE SHIRTS, ACCESSORIES AND NO FIREARMS!!!

3 posted on 06/13/2007 9:54:40 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: kiriath_jearim

“70% of the dealers at the Nevada gun shows lacked Federal Firearms licenses.”

If they don’t have a Type 01 FFL, then they aren’t dealers!


4 posted on 06/13/2007 9:56:45 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Another impotent Berkely pseuo-intellectual. It ahas been illegal since 1968 for an individual to buy a gun from another individual, (not a resident of his own state) without it going through an FFL. He is probably an Osama Obama Hussein voter.


5 posted on 06/13/2007 11:00:03 AM PDT by 2harddrive (...House a TOTAL Loss.....)
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To: kiriath_jearim
At least two dozen “straw” purchases – firearms bought by one person but intended for another “prohibited” purchaser – were observed.

So this study took TWO YEARS and "observed" 24 straw sales. So one a month. And then doesn't explain why they thought these were straw sales.

I smell a bogus study. Not to mention a red herring.

Oh, and they consider one gun a month a pipeline?

6 posted on 06/13/2007 11:02:57 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici
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To: Puppage
At least two dozen “straw” purchases – firearms bought by one person but intended for another “prohibited” purchaser – were observed.

And, they know this HOW? Did they actually see the "prohibited" purchaser exchange money for the gun?

They know he's prohibited from buying, HOW?

If it were SO easy to buy a gun at a gun show you would see 20/20, Dateline, et al doing hidden camera purchases ad nauseum.

Ever see them do a show like that? No, because it hardly ever happens, period.

7 posted on 06/13/2007 11:03:55 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: kiriath_jearim

bump


8 posted on 06/13/2007 11:05:06 AM PDT by lowbridge ("The mainstream media IS the Democratic Party." - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: kiriath_jearim

70% of the dealers at the Nevada gun shows lacked Federal Firearms licenses.

What does this stat mean? All “dealers” at gunshows could mean guys who sale book, parts, antiques, knives. Yeas there may be on 30% actual gun dealers there.

Or do they mean that 70% of those selling guns are not license.

The stat seems fishy, when I go to my local gun show everyone with an array of guns is license and does the back ground check.


9 posted on 06/13/2007 11:08:13 AM PDT by FlatLandBeer
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To: 2harddrive
Another impotent Berkely pseuo-intellectual. It ahas been illegal since 1968 for an individual to buy a gun from another individual, (not a resident of his own state) without it going through an FFL.

Correct! As a California resident who lives close to the border, I have attended many Nevada gun shows. You CANNOT buy a firearm in Nevada unless you are a resident. The only way an out-of-stater can buy a firearm in Nevada is pay for it then have the firearm shipped to a FFL dealer in California where the Federal paperwork and background check is done. Then you can pick it up after a 10 day waiting period. I know, because I have done this.

And as another poster pointed out, most "dealers" at Nevada shows are selling t-shirts or equipment, not firearms. There are usually a few antique dealers there too selling pre-1898 firearms for which NO paperwork or Federal transfer is required under law.

10 posted on 06/13/2007 11:31:46 AM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

“Unlicensed gun dealers. Unscrupulous gun manufacturers. Second Amendment extremists? “

Questionable statistic gathering practices aside- There is no such thing as a “Second Amendment extremist”.

You people in California have known how to bugger the system long enough for your own gains (not leveled at fellow freepers). Instead of crying “foul” whenever you think something’s wrong, exploit it as well. Make the system even.

Same goes for when they level their lawyers on rich people. If someone made money, they did something right! Imulate them, don’t punish them. They are examples.

Deregulate the economy and abolish gun control laws. The rest of this countries “problems” will likely level out.


11 posted on 06/13/2007 11:32:23 AM PDT by MacDorcha (Peace is not the highest goal - freedom is. -LachlanMinnesota)
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To: kiriath_jearim
A federal law might drive them out of gun shows altogether.

Sure. Just like the Federal laws that keep drugs out of the hands of criminals.

Perhaps what this is really all about is establishing yet another black market on which organized crime can make tons of cash. I guess drugs and gambling aren't enough any more.

12 posted on 06/13/2007 11:32:58 AM PDT by sourcery (Double Feature: "The Amnestyville Horror" and "Kill the Bill, Vol. 2")
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To: kiriath_jearim

Hmmm. I’ll be in Vegas at the end of this month, perhaps I’ll pick up a gun or three.


13 posted on 06/13/2007 11:33:49 AM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: kiriath_jearim
Dr. Garen Wintemute

This guy is a known anti-gun "researcher". Completed biased. This study is worthless.

14 posted on 06/13/2007 11:37:55 AM PDT by jrp
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To: kiriath_jearim

Let’s just do away with background checks altogether. They presume guilt and its still illegal for felons to possess guns. All it does is make it hard for law abiding citizens to buy guns. Criminals won’t obey the law anyway, and it creates a barrier to entry (FFL) to the legal market. I remember walking into a store with my dad, and him putting his money on the counter and walking out with what would be today classified as an assault rife (M1 Carbine). That’s the way it should be, even for machine guns. Call me an absolutist, I guess.


15 posted on 06/13/2007 11:38:51 AM PDT by RKV
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To: kiriath_jearim
“70% of the dealers at the Nevada gun shows lacked Federal Firearms licenses.

Nevada does not require background checks or that records be kept on private party sales at gun shows – unlike California.

At least two dozen “straw” purchases – firearms bought by one person but intended for another “prohibited” purchaser – were observed.”

So there is a lack of a requirement to fill out 4474’s, records are not kept, yet they observed straw purchases in the absence of requirements or documentation. How?

16 posted on 06/13/2007 11:41:50 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: kiriath_jearim
The gun show promoter who staged these events was quoted as saying that California style regulation will “only punish law-abiding citizens”. How a background check “punishes” the law abiding is not made clear.

NICS will not give me an approval- just a delay. First time i ran across this problem i was trying to buy a 60 year old mauser rifle. the dealer that had it would not release it to me without an approval, and would not refund my money. It took 6 months of fighting with the fbi to get that one rifle.
17 posted on 06/13/2007 11:44:29 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them!)
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To: kiriath_jearim

From the “study” ...

“Also in Florida, Wintemute saw a woman in her twenties buying a rifle with a bayonet and 30-round magazine from a licensed retailer while her male partner, who had selected the firearm, stood 15 feet away while she completed the paperwork. As the background check was being run on her, the man talked with the retailer about the rifle and then bought ammunition for it once the background check had been completed.”

Ever had a knowledgeable friend along with you when purchasing a firearm? That’s what it looks like to me. Even so, so what? If the guy is a former felon and has lost his right to possess firearms, bust him! Meanwhile leave me alone, and cut the nonsense about this not hurting lawful business. The agenda of this puke is to end the sales of guns altogether. And don’t get me going as to why private party sales should be legal.


18 posted on 06/13/2007 11:45:17 AM PDT by RKV
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To: kiriath_jearim

Here’s the compromise this guy and the other gun-grabbers would never accept.

Subject ALL gun transaction to a background check, but in a manner that the seller verifies the qualifications of the buyer, without the government ever knowing who made the purchase, or of what gun.

All I care about is that there are plenty (hundred million+) of guns that are not in the confiscation database. I don’t mind being carded for liquor or gun purchases.

But the gun grabbers really do want to have the database ready, so their storm troopers can knock down doors when they ban guns, and so that there will be less resistance when they load certain folks onto the boxcars.


19 posted on 06/13/2007 11:45:18 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney (...and another "Constitution-bot"))
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To: kiriath_jearim
70% of the dealers unlicensed. Over two dozen “straw” sales that put guns in the hands of ex-felons. 4000 gun shows each year in the U.S.A.

I belong to a gun club in Washington State and regularly go to gun shows. I have purchased firearms from private parties and FFL dealers, it all depends on who is selling what and for how much.

At the gun shows I attend, if you are making a private party sale, you ask to see the drivers license of the person you are selling the firearm to make sure that they are a resident of this state. That way you aren't engaging in interstate commerce. If a California resident is buying firearms in Nevada for secret transport back into California there are probably dozens of existing regulations that are being violated and new laws won't make the purchaser respect the newest requirement anymore than the others.

A straw man purchase is absolutely illegal and at the gun shows I go to there are signs everywhere against doing this. The truly sad thing is that a father can't legally go into a store or show with his son and pick out and pay for a rifle of his son's choosing as a birthday present and be open and honest about it. That sucks in my minds.

"2 dozen strawman purchases that put guns in the hands of ex-felons..." I find it really hard to believe this statistic. If this really is prevalent, then there are existing laws that need to be enforced against those making the strawman purchases and against those felons possessing a firearm, both of which are federal offenses.

20 posted on 06/13/2007 11:55:46 AM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: VeniVidiVici

i’d bet that some of the “observed” straw purchases are father/ son, “here kid, i just bought this, but you’re gonna be my caddy and carry it around.”


21 posted on 06/13/2007 12:02:54 PM PDT by absolootezer0 (Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them!)
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To: RKV

The transaction you described is right in line with the 2nd’s: “...shall not be infringed.”


22 posted on 06/13/2007 12:12:04 PM PDT by Weeedley
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To: kiriath_jearim
Two DOZEN unregulated transactions??!!! The Horrors! Mr. Cavala's knowledge of guns appears to be that the pointy end goes away from his body.

I like being lectured by people who have little to no understanding of an issue, other than their own biases. /s

23 posted on 06/13/2007 12:12:07 PM PDT by wbill
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To: VeniVidiVici

I was wondering how they actually “observed” these “straw” sales -

I’m thinking that it was mostly fathers buying rifles for their sons.


24 posted on 06/13/2007 12:14:40 PM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Badeye
...perhaps I’ll pick up a gun or three.

Not a bad idea. Then you can take a little trek west to Front Sight, NV, and break 'em in good and proper.

Take your pick:
http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp

25 posted on 06/13/2007 12:22:33 PM PDT by HKMk23 (Nine out of ten orcs attacking Rohan were Saruman's Uruk-hai, not Sauron's! So, why invade Mordor?)
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To: HKMk23

Too cool. I think a few years ago I might have seen them at the SOF convention...or a very similiar company at any rate.

Thanks for the link.


26 posted on 06/13/2007 12:26:40 PM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: Inyo-Mono; y'all
As a California resident who lives close to the border, I have attended many Nevada gun shows. You CANNOT buy a firearm in Nevada unless you are a resident.
The only way an out-of-stater can buy a firearm in Nevada is pay for it then have the firearm shipped to a FFL dealer in California where the Federal paperwork and background check is done. Then you can pick it up after a 10 day waiting period.
I know, because I have done this.
And as another poster pointed out, most "dealers" at Nevada shows are selling t-shirts or equipment, not firearms. There are usually a few antique dealers there too selling pre-1898 firearms for which NO paperwork or Federal transfer is required under law.

Do you [or anyone else here] know if Nevada law requires a private unlicensed individual [selling at a show, -or wherever] to see proof of state residency from his buyer?

27 posted on 06/13/2007 12:36:41 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: Badeye
Thanks for the link.

You're quite welcome. I think Dr. Piazza's a stand-up guy, and his operation out there is second-to-none in the world. I've no qualms at all referring folks to Front Sight. In fact, IMO, had I the power to do it, I would make it Law that everyone get gun training of that caliber, whether they own any guns or not. FAR too many anti-gun beliefs arise from nothing more than a vacuum of personal experience.

Dr. Piazza espouses the belief -- and I agree with him -- that the best method to combat anti-gun thinking is personal exposure to competent, professional training in what Piazza calls "skill at arms". You take some anti-gun MSM talking head, put them through a two-day pistol course, and their fear of the weapon itself -- a primary force in anti-gun thinking -- evaporates, and they realize what most of us already know: that a gun is simply a tool that, when competently handled, is no more dangerous than a screwdriver. They probably won't run right out and join the NRA, but they won't continue to spread uninformed idiocy, anymore, either.

28 posted on 06/13/2007 12:42:57 PM PDT by HKMk23 (Nine out of ten orcs attacking Rohan were Saruman's Uruk-hai, not Sauron's! So, why invade Mordor?)
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To: HKMk23

‘You take some anti-gun MSM talking head, put them through a two-day pistol course, and their fear of the weapon itself — a primary force in anti-gun thinking — evaporates, and they realize what most of us already know: that a gun is simply a tool that, when competently handled, is no more dangerous than a screwdriver. They probably won’t run right out and join the NRA, but they won’t continue to spread uninformed idiocy, anymore, either.’

Yep. A few years ago an avowed liberal anti gunner (laura something or other) went to Target World in Cincinnati and went through a basic gun safety training course.

She then wrote a column about it, and admitted she was in fact ‘thrilled’ by the experience.

Bottom line is if you enjoy any activity that requires hand - eye coordination, you’ll enjoy putting a round through a bullseye. Darts, shooting pool, bowling, doesn’t matter.


29 posted on 06/13/2007 12:47:11 PM PDT by Badeye (You know its a kook site when they ban the word 'kook')
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To: 2harddrive

Not only that, the FFL has to be in the state in which the purchaser resides. This guy is a dunce. He will be celebrated in Berkely.


30 posted on 06/13/2007 12:47:34 PM PDT by sig226 (Where did my tag line go?)
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To: 2harddrive

Not only that, the FFL has to be in the state in which the purchaser resides if it is a handgun, and the purchase of a long gun must comply with the laws in the purchaser’s home state. This guy is a dunce. He will be celebrated in Berkely.


31 posted on 06/13/2007 12:48:24 PM PDT by sig226 (Where did my tag line go?)
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To: VeniVidiVici
There's a link to the study provided in post 2.

However, only example provided is where a woman purchases a firearm for a man. In this example which the article describes as the most blatant, the man picks out the gun, and even goes and buys ammo for the gun while the woman purchases it.

Despite what the study states, that doesn't prove it was a straw purchase.

If you read Notice 1 on page 3 of ATF form 4473, you will find that it states:

You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/page03.htm

Unless the gentleman gave the woman the money with which to purchase the gun, which the person in the study doesn't claim to have seen happen, it isn't a straw purchase.

So the author of the study lies about seeing what must be straw purchases. However, that's only the first step in how liberals use lies to propose restrictions on gun sales and ownership.

The second step is for another person using that bogus study to misrepresent that lie as something even more nefarious. So in this article we see:

Over two dozen “straw” sales that put guns in the hands of ex-felons.

So we go from a claim of seeing evidence that someone bought someone else a gun as a gift, to not only being straw purchases, but that they put the guns into the hands of ex-felons.

Of course this person who is so concerned about these crimes didn't report them to the police and turn over the audio and photo evidence that they acquired. They don't even provide that evidence for anyone to verify. If they were to provide evidence to the public, they would open themselves to being sued for accusing these people of criminal acts. However, since they don't actually name anyone, they can simply lie with impunity and can't be held accountable.

32 posted on 06/13/2007 1:20:16 PM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: tpaine
Here is the law in Nevada:

Firearms transfers by private sellers (non-firearms dealers) are not subject to background checks in Nevada, although federal and state purchaser prohibitions still apply. However, section 202.254(1) provides that a private person who wishes to transfer a firearm may request that the Central Repository for Nevada Records of Criminal History perform a background check on the transferee. See the Nevada Private/Secondary Sales section.

33 posted on 06/13/2007 1:26:31 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: Inyo-Mono
Do you [or anyone else here] know if Nevada law requires a private unlicensed individual [selling at a show, -or wherever] to see proof of state residency from his buyer?

Here is the law in Nevada:

Firearms transfers by private sellers (non-firearms dealers) are not subject to background checks in Nevada, although federal and state purchaser prohibitions still apply.
However, section 202.254(1) provides that a private person who wishes to transfer a firearm may request that the Central Repository for Nevada Records of Criminal History perform a background check on the transferee. See the Nevada Private/Secondary Sales section.

Thanks for the info. So unless the Show's rules apply, and individual unlicensed seller does not have to require ID from a buyer... Correct?

Do most shows require buyer/seller ID checks?

34 posted on 06/13/2007 1:44:24 PM PDT by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: jrp
Garen Wintemute has made a name for himself over the years as a pathological liar.

liar

Plus, the ponytail is lame.
35 posted on 06/13/2007 2:06:43 PM PDT by absalom01 (The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.)
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To: tpaine
Do most shows require buyer/seller ID checks?

Yes they do.

36 posted on 06/13/2007 3:00:28 PM PDT by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Nevada's Legislature is controlled by Democrats. But they know better than to mess around with Nevadans' guns.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

37 posted on 06/13/2007 9:01:56 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: jrp
UC Berkeley graduate, worked for comrade brown, ?? has to be a devout communist government loving bolshevik. He probably does studies all right, on how to circumvent the 2nd amendment.
38 posted on 08/04/2012 10:44:37 PM PDT by mrkuwell
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