Posted on 06/19/2007 11:06:17 AM PDT by Starman417
In December 2002, Russia’s Middle East envoy, Yevgeny Primakov (former Russian Intelligence Chief), flew to Baghdad under the front of making one last chance for peace with the dictator. As soon as his plane landed, it was allegedly loaded with “sensitive materials” and flown directly to Belarus. People speculate as to whether or not it was WMD, WMD equipment, documents, people, or things the Russians didn’t want the US to get their hands on, but in any event…the plane was loaded with things the US wanted. He also allegedly brought Russian GPS jammers to confuse American satellite-guided bombs, night vision goggles, special anti-tank missiles, and Russian advisors.
American forces found the jammers, and that’s no secret since the Air Force was happy to boast that the jammers were ineffective (USAF just boosted the signal from their satellites so that it was “louder” than those from the jammers).
Syria and Russia both sent night-vision sights and goggles to Iraq, and they were recovered by American forces.
The anti-tank missiles did stop an Abrams tank and kill its crew. Others reportedly were ineffective, but evidence of their use is indisputable given the unique signature that their shaped charge left on the tanks that were hit.
Two Russian Generals, Gen. Vladimir Achalov, a former commander of airborne and rapid-reaction forces, and Gen. Igor Maltsev, a leading expert in air defense systems were reported in Baghdad up until 6 days before the war. During their “visit” they were photographed being given medals by Iraqi Defence Minister Sultan Hashim Akhmed. Other smiley photographs include the two Russian Generals standing with head of the General Staff of the Iraqi Army Izzat Ibragim between them. Upon their return to Russia, the generals were asked why they went on a “last-chance” diplomatic mission. They replied, “We didn't fly to Baghdad to drink coffee.” One wonders if all the elements of the story were proven true, could the claim of “special weapons” being moved out be less true than the other elements?
Immediately after the arrival of the Russians in Baghdad, retired USAF Lt Gen. James R Clapper Jr-then head of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency-monitored an increasing flow of traffic and communication from Iraq to Syria. Former head of the UN’s WMD inspection group, UNSCOM, Richard Butler, was asked to review the imagery. He agreed that Iraq appeared to be moving weapons out of Iraq, but did not think that “the Iraqis wanted to give them to Syria, but…just wanted to get them out of the territory, out of range of our inspections.” Syria was prepared to be the custodian of them.” The entire idea was nearly identical to when Saddam sent his entire air force to Iran for safe-keeping during Desert Storm.
Israeli intelligence (flush with human intelligence sources in the region-particularly in Syria, and Lebanon) reported that the increased traffic was Saddam’s repositioning of WMD to Syria. On December 23, 2002, Ariel Sharon stated on Israeli channel 2 television, "Chemical and biological weapons which Saddam is endeavoring to conceal have been moved from Iraq to Syria.” About three weeks later, Israel's foreign minister repeated the accusation. The U.S., British, and Australian governments issued similar statements.
Opponents to the war like to point to the 1000+ pages of the Duelfer Report and summarize it as “NO WMD,” but there’s a lot more to Moby Dick than 5 letters. Not even an elementary school student would dare turn in a 5-letter book report on Melville’s epic. Similarly the ISG’s report contains a lot more than just “NO WMD.” It is a resounding verification that, yes, there was a great deal of ‘something’ secreted out of Saddam’s Iraq into Syria. While the ISG doesn’t claim that it was in fact WMD in those trucks, it does leave that door open because of the clandestine nature and the assembly areas for the convoys that left Iraq for Syria would be consistent with WMD, WMD equipment, documentation, and even personnel.
Given that there is so much evidence that Saddam’s illegal weapons, programs, documents, and equipment existed and were moved rather than did not exist and were destroyed, it seems that logic has turned. There’s simply more evidence it was moved than there is any evidence of WMD destruction. Yet, the debate from those who oppose prefers to ignore evidence and pretend that fictional evidence of destruction exists. That door to reality is creaking open for the opposition, and as such it’s no wonder that the anti-war movement is shattering, the Democratic Party is spinning, and opponents to the war are confused.
Part one here.
Actually, no a SCUD does not qualify as a WMD. It is a missile of particularly poor quality. If you put a nuke or gas or biological warhead on it, then yes it certainly can deliver a WMD short range but on its own, a SCUD is not a WMD.
Your logic is a little bit twisted- one needs WMDs to put down a small Kurdish uprising, but not to invade a nation. You don’t use your most lethal weapons while you are taking a pounding from a larger opponent for fear of taking a pounding from a larger opponent.
Just doesn’t add up.
Given that there is so much evidence that Saddam’s illegal weapons, programs, documents, and equipment existed and were moved ........................
so iraq disarmed per UN agreement then, right?
So if they were tracked by Satellite and Prediators, it is possible we know the final resting place of the WMDs in Syria?
The most likey scenario is that Saddam had little or no WMDs when the War began not because he had seen the light and just decided to be a nice guy, but because sanctions and inspectors and the loss of technology due to both as well as the first Gulf War had made it difficult if not impossible to maintain. Saddam played a huge bluff, trying to make others believe that he had WMDs to keep regional foes at bay as well as keep domestic opponents in fear. (Note the internal strife today, now that Saddam is not ruling with an iron fist).
I’m not saying that Saddam was a kitten, I’m saying that he was an impotent liar who used the threat of WMDs to sabre rattle. Problem is we called his bluff and kicked his ass as if he really had them.
- The thing that no one has explained, however, is if Saddam had a WMD program and that program was then handed over to Syria, why didn’t Saddam ever use WMDs- except back during the Reagan administration. -
First of all - it took Saddam all of about ten minutes to overrun Kuwait. He didn’t need them.
Second - He knew that if he used them on the US, the response would have been nuclear (at least with this President).
Third - The Syrians haven’t used them because they know that we know where they are and if any show up in the US, we’ll have a pretty good idea where they came from.
They are resting safely until Iran has a nuke ...
It’s been fairly obvious from the beginning of the iraq war that the WMDs were trucked to Syria, but I cannot understand why the administration hasn’t been pounding this fact into the MSM’s thick skulls for years.
So if you are aware that by escalating the situation through the use of chemical weapons, your opponent might escalate to the use of nuclear weapons in retaliation, you should ignore this consideration and just go ahead and use them? That is what your statement implies and that is preposterous.
You also seem to be saying that it is inconceivable that Saddam, possessing WMDs, would not use them in overrunning Kuwait. If you don't need to use such a weapon, you don't do so. You don't use a weapon simply because you have it.
bump
- It’s been fairly obvious from the beginning of the iraq war that the WMDs were trucked to Syria, but I cannot understand why the administration hasn’t been pounding this fact into the MSM’s thick skulls for years. -
Because that would demand a US response, and Bush doesn’t have the army to start a war with Syria (and by default, Iran)if it can be avoided. I have always thought, though I disagree with him on immigration, that he is most interested in doing what is right for the country as opposed to what will make him most popular. THAT is part of the reason he won’t budge on immigration - he truly believes its the right thing to do, IMHO. I just happen to disagree with him.
“So if you are aware that by escalating the situation through the use of chemical weapons, your opponent might escalate to the use of nuclear weapons in retaliation, you should ignore this consideration and just go ahead and use them? That is what your statement implies and that is preposterous.”
You seem to imply that Sadaam was a rational person. He wasn’t.
The World Tribune reported on Perricos's briefing. "He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month... The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters ... required for the production of chemical and biological warheads. 'It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for,' Perricos's spokesman, said. 'You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax.'"
Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. James Clapper, head of the National Imagery and Mapping Agency, said vehicle traffic photographed by U.S. spy satellites indicated that material and documents related to the arms programs were shipped to Syria."
"Last month Moshe Yaalon, who was Israel's top general at the time, said Iraq transported WMD to Syria six weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom began.
Last March, John A. Shaw, a former U.S. deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said Russian Spetsnaz units moved WMD to Syria and Lebanon's Bekaa Valley.
"While in Iraq I received information from several sources naming the exact Russian units, what they took and where they took both WMD materials and conventional explosives," Mr. Shaw told NewsMax reporter Charles Smith.
Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Michael DeLong was deputy commander of Central Command during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In September 2004, he told WABC radio that "I do know for a fact that some of those weapons went into Syria, Lebanon and Iran."
In January 2004, David Kay, the first head of the Iraq Survey Group which conducted the search for Saddam's WMD, told a British newspaper there was evidence unspecified materials had been moved to Syria from Iraq shortly before the war.
"We know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD program," Mr. Kay told the Sunday Telegraph.
Also that month, Nizar Nayuf, a Syrian journalist who defected to an undisclosed European country, told a Dutch newspaper he knew of three sites where Iraq's WMD was being kept. They were the town of al Baida near the city of Hama in northern Syria; the Syrian air force base near the village of Tal Snan, and the city of Sjinsar on the border with Lebanon.
In an addendum to his final report last April, Charles Duelfer, who succeeded David Kay as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said he couldn't rule out a transfer of WMD from Iraq to Syria.
"There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation," Mr. Duelfer said."
"The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon," former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw told an audience Saturday at a privately sponsored "Intelligence Summit" in Alexandria, Va. (www.intelligencesummit.org).
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."
"Two days before the war, on March 17th, we saw through multiple intelligence channels - both human intelligence and techinical (satellite,eavesdrop) intelligence - large caravans of people and things, including some of the top 55 Iraqis, going to Syria."
It is possible that we saw what the Russians wanted us to see... The weapons may still be in Iraq and the fight we are encountering there may be a distraction to keep us from searching for them in a organized, thorough manner. Given what is known now about Speznatz contingency plans (open source info) for other places where the Soviets had WMD weapons stored it might be really interesting to search the bottom of the lakes (like lake Thar Thar) with some sonar devices and see if there is anything out of the ordinary there... just a thought
So President Bush did the right thing to take Saddam out. After 9/11, if any dictators continue to "talk big game", I'll take them out, no questions asked.
It's only that Rumsfeld and Bremer f***ed up the occupation by dismantling the Ba'athist Army and not sending enough American Troops to contribute to security.
Now we are getting paid for doing the "war on the cheap".
So President Bush did the right thing to take Saddam out. After 9/11, if any dictators continue to "talk big game", I'll take them out, no questions asked.
It's only that Rumsfeld and Bremer f***ed up the occupation by dismantling the Ba'athist Army and not sending enough American Troops to contribute to security.
Now we are getting paid for doing the "war on the cheap".
I can see how you might conclude that, but I think he was largely a pretty rational person. To get to the top in an Arab country requires a large ego and a lot of ruthlessness. Those characteristics may be inimical to making cool rational decisions, but they do not preclude them.
I think his unwillingness to disclose to the UN all he had was a product of his 'macho' culture - he could not back down and show weakness or a competitor might take over. Add to that a belief that the US would not really do anything after all the shouting was over, and you get a dictator that led his country into a war through misjudgement, not because he was irrational.
Very interesting assessment. Thanks.
ping
If I could read and speak Arabic, I would be in SIX FIGURES!
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