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The Offensive Truth: Relativism and Our Kids
Breakpoint with Chuck Colson ^ | 6/20/2007 | Chuck Colson

Posted on 06/20/2007 8:58:09 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback

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Oy, my head hurts. But my heart hurts worse.

There are links to further information at the source document.

If anyone wants on or off my Chuck Colson/BreakPoint Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

1 posted on 06/20/2007 8:58:10 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks; 351 Cleveland; AFPhys; agenda_express; almcbean; ambrose; Amos the Prophet; ...
Don't miss this one.

BreakPoint/Chuck Colson Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my Chuck Colson/BreakPoint Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

2 posted on 06/20/2007 8:59:07 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: 2nd amendment mama; A2J; Agitate; AliVeritas; Alouette; Annie03; aposiopetic; attagirl; Augie76; ...
Most of you are Christians; all of you know where relativism has gotten us. Don't miss this one.
3 posted on 06/20/2007 9:00:08 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
It's deeply ingrained. I have known many Christians who believed that God is love, and therefore it is wrong to be judgmental. Homosexuality? Who are we to say that it's wrong? Wicca rituals? Let's not be the first to cast a stone!

For me, caring about others means being judgmental and helping people get on to the right path, and telling them when they are on the wrong path.

4 posted on 06/20/2007 9:09:57 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Enoch Powell was right.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

As long as the kids themselves think Christianity is true what’s the problem? The Catholic Church used to teach that it was the ONE TRUE CHURCH. Well that offended a lot of people so it was changed to the Catholic Church teaches the FULLNESS OF TRUTH. That is, other religions have some truth but we have the most there is to be had. So the kids can just say Christianity contains the “fullness of truth.” If the kids are uncomfortable with that, then why the heck are they even Christians at all?


5 posted on 06/20/2007 9:13:16 PM PDT by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewis)
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To: Mr. Silverback
"The students went nuts. All but one of the eight leaders completely balked at the concept of distinguishing Christianity as true and other religions as false"

Sound like good Buddhists to me. Oh, wait a minute.
6 posted on 06/20/2007 9:16:39 PM PDT by ndt
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To: Mr. Silverback

“One young lady had met with her pastor, who told her no one can be sure of truth”

If someone stabs another person, and that person dies, it is murder. That is the TRUTH.


7 posted on 06/20/2007 9:35:16 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Lesson 10 leads the kids through a series of choices to learn to recognize the difference between matters of truth and matters of taste.

Speaking of truth, meatball is the only acceptable pizza topping. Pepperoni, mushroom, sausage, and the like, are sins. This is such an obvious truth that no further explanation is required, because we meatball-topping-pizza-eaters have a monopoly on all truth. Anyone who believes otherwise is a relativist headed down the wrong path, and has no business being out in public trying to sell us normal folk on their evil toppings. We must teach...no, instill...no, wait, ram this down the throats of our children or we will all perish!

8 posted on 06/20/2007 9:36:06 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

“All but one of the eight leaders completely balked at the concept of distinguishing Christianity as true and other religions as false.” “

Some “leaders”


9 posted on 06/20/2007 9:40:52 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker; Mr. Silverback

“One young lady had met with her pastor, who told her no one can be sure of truth”

Pontius Pilate would have agreed. (”What is truth?”)


10 posted on 06/20/2007 9:43:06 PM PDT by Graymatter (New legislators. No new laws. ... Let's clean house. And senate.)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions

You have it completely backwards! All toppings are good in the eyes of God, except anchovies. The anchovy eaters must be wiped from the face of the earth.


11 posted on 06/20/2007 9:43:08 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
As long as the kids themselves think Christianity is true what’s the problem?

The quotation from John in the article. Jesus made it pretty clear what his opinion on this particular subject was. And the great commission. We are to tell all men about Him. We can either say:

* "He is the way, the truth and the light. Noone comes to the father but thru Him."

* "He is a way, He knew the truth, and he's one of the ways you can find the light."

One is biblical. The other isn't. If you are evangelizing to folks, eventually you have to be prepared to answer that question. No sense being scared of it. If you have a question about that, you really aren't a Christian.

12 posted on 06/20/2007 9:46:59 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions; All

For evidence for why Christianity alone says what happens thousands of years before it happens, please see http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. This is the signature of God.

Other “religions” don’t do this. Not Islam, not Bhuddism, not Hinduism, not Zoroastrianism, not B’haism. Whatever their spelling, they are the words of men and not God.


13 posted on 06/20/2007 9:47:34 PM PDT by ROTB (Our Constitution...only for a [Christian] people...it is wholly inadequate for any other.-J.Q.Adams)
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To: durasell

“The anchovy eaters must be wiped from the face of the earth”

I agree. I don’t like “salt pizza” !!


14 posted on 06/20/2007 9:49:10 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: ROTB

Are you saying that Christianity is a tool for predicting the future?


15 posted on 06/20/2007 9:49:43 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

The anchovy eaters are a slippery slope. Fish pizza is unnatural. Where will it stop? Lox pizza? Sushi pizza? Blackened Sea Bass (with a hint of basil) pizza?


16 posted on 06/20/2007 9:51:38 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: durasell

LOL!


17 posted on 06/20/2007 9:52:57 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: ClearCase_guy

We are actually discussing this topic in my Bible study right now.

We just started the topic, and I need to read up on it.

What does it mean to not be under the law?


18 posted on 06/20/2007 10:02:43 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: Mr. Silverback

Less than 10% of Americans who call themselves Christian possesses a Biblical worldview.

Which means:

More than 90% of Americans who call themselves Christian do not possess a Biblical worldview.

2/3 of Born Again Christians assert that there are no absolute moral truths.
What does that mean? Sin really doesn’t exist.
Ergo – Redemption was not really necessary
Ergo – Christ died for nothing
Begs the question – Why the need to be Born Again?

4 out of 10 say they are “absolutely committed to the faith”.

44% of churched youths agree with this statement: “Humans are capable of grasping the meaning of truth”.

85% of churched youth agree with this statement: “What is right for a person in a certain situation may not be right for another person in the same situation”.
(Relativism and situational ethics)

62% of churched youth agree that: “Nothing can be known for certain except that which is experienced in your life”.

Why I believe the Bible and have a Biblical worldview:

“I choose to believe the Bible because it’s a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses that report supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claim that their origins are divine rather than human in origin.” Dr. Voddie Baucham


19 posted on 06/20/2007 10:03:40 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions

With the tagline you’ve got, I take it you are kidding. Its all right to be exclusive when it comes to America, patriotism (freedom no exceptions), but not when it comes to religious matters?


20 posted on 06/20/2007 10:03:53 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: ClearCase_guy

Most people read Mt 7 and just get as far as “Judge not, lest ye be judged”, not realizing that Christ himself goes on to teach us how to judge properly.


21 posted on 06/20/2007 10:08:02 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: Mr. Silverback

SITREP


22 posted on 06/20/2007 10:10:01 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: ROTB

Seriously? I should accept Jesus because 10 years ago “Guy Cramer” wrote a piece using incomprehensible language and math claiming to prove that the Old Testament correctly predicted the date of Israel’s independence?


23 posted on 06/20/2007 10:11:24 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
As long as the kids themselves think Christianity is true what’s the problem?

What's the problem with being afraid to speak the truth?

24 posted on 06/20/2007 10:13:24 PM PDT by irv
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To: stephenjohnbanker

My late husband was a Catholic. The priest visited me when he died and looked at me aghast, knowing that I am a saved Pentecostal Christian, “Do you mean you believe in the resurrection?” He asked. I couldn’t believe it. He was probably in his 30’s, and this was 12 years ago. The Seminaries don’t teach em like they used to I guess.

Relativism has no place in our church. The CFR crowd has been trying to kill the church for years now, and they are making vast inroads with some of the kids and too many adults as well. Bodes very bad for the future if this continues. It’s up to the parents to wake up and take charge.

The former Soviet Union countries are all flocking back to the Lord I hear. True peace can only come with a strong belief in the Almighty. As our country slides further into moral corruption, He will not bless it. He will remove His protection from us.


25 posted on 06/20/2007 10:15:20 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( Vote for Duncan Hunter in the Primaries for America's sake!)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
Seriously? I should accept Jesus...

No
You are incapable of "accepting Jesus" until He calls for you.

26 posted on 06/20/2007 10:18:45 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: irv

Liberals think it’s okay to seek truth as long as you never find it.


27 posted on 06/20/2007 10:21:46 PM PDT by puroresu
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To: Paperdoll

“The former Soviet Union countries are all flocking back to the Lord I hear. True peace can only come with a strong belief in the Almighty. As our country slides further into moral corruption, He will not bless it. He will remove His protection from us.”

Well, we seem(we being our so called leaders)to be doing everything possible to incur His wrath.If “Shamnesty” passes, we are begging for retribution, as it is slavery for the “ruling class” Moral corruption is endemic to same.


28 posted on 06/20/2007 10:24:00 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I think this is what the Pope was getting at when he was in Brazil. People need to know more about their religion when it is challenged than they do if everybody believes the same thing.

What I run into is that tolerance trumps truth. That assures that all conversations are very shallow. People want credit for having any old opinion they picked up somewhere.

Today, for instance, Bush vetoed stem cell research on moral and ethical grounds. Hillary called that ideology, denying the quest for truth and asserting the subjective, instead.

29 posted on 06/20/2007 10:24:03 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: puroresu

“Liberals think it’s okay to seek truth as long as you never find it”
Outstanding little comment!!

B U M P


30 posted on 06/20/2007 10:25:26 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: Graymatter
“One young lady had met with her pastor, who told her no one can be sure of truth”

It would have been more interesting if the young lady had had the presence of mind to ask the pastor if he was sure his statement was true.

31 posted on 06/20/2007 10:29:23 PM PDT by SamuraiScot
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
Speaking of truth, meatball is the only acceptable pizza topping. Pepperoni, mushroom, sausage, and the like, are sins.

With this statement you are doing exactly what Colson is talking about....mixing taste with truth.

Truth: The Earth is Round

Taste: The Earth is beautiful.

Truth: Tangent = opposite divided by the adjacent

Taste: Math is fun.

Christian theology is either true, or its false. Liking Christianity, a matter of taste, is not the same as believing in it.

32 posted on 06/20/2007 10:31:30 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (oF)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

I’ve had, “Dancing With Wolves” on tonight. What happened in Washington about the Shamnesty bill?


33 posted on 06/20/2007 10:33:35 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( Vote for Duncan Hunter in the Primaries for America's sake!)
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To: Paperdoll

Nothing


34 posted on 06/20/2007 10:34:13 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: ClaireSolt

The President vetoed the stem cell bill insuring that:

A) Three states — CA, MA, NY — will lock themselves in a battle for bio-tech by funding the hell out of research, stem cell and otherwise.

B)Potentially giving other countries reason to fund the research.

The end result is pretty much the same. Stem cell research will continue. Whatever benefits are to be discovered will be discovered, either in the U.S. or another country.


35 posted on 06/20/2007 10:34:16 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Good. I’ll sleep better then. :)


36 posted on 06/20/2007 10:38:57 PM PDT by Paperdoll ( Vote for Duncan Hunter in the Primaries for America's sake!)
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To: durasell

The result is probably a lot better from their point of view. More money and independance. However, you seem to think that individual moral choices are insignificant when others don’t agree. That’s cynical.


37 posted on 06/20/2007 10:39:22 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: Paperdoll

Sleep well!


38 posted on 06/20/2007 10:39:53 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: ClaireSolt

Individual moral choices are significant. They shape history.

However, science will continue to push ahead.


39 posted on 06/20/2007 10:42:27 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: sasportas
With the tagline you’ve got, I take it you are kidding. Its all right to be exclusive when it comes to America, patriotism (freedom no exceptions), but not when it comes to religious matters?

The point of my screen name and tagline is to sum up my entire political philosophy, which I'd like to see world-wide, and not just in America. Of course, we all believe our opinions are the exclusive truth, but the point of my post was to lampoon the extent to which some people look down upon others that do not accept their opinions 100% hook, line, and sinker. And to lampoon the tiresome matter of "relativism." Are you a Christian, or are you a relativist? Are you a Hindu, or are you a relativist? Jew, or relativist? Are you a presuppositionalist postmillenial nondenominational dominionist reformed orthodox nonsectarian born-again (fill-in-the-blank), or are you a relativist? The line separating truth and taste can be rather thin sometimes.

40 posted on 06/20/2007 10:45:04 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: uptoolate

The two predominate American worldviews at-a-glance:

Christian Theism
View of God - Theistic (God Exists), Necessary Creator & Sustainer of the Universe.

Secular Humanism
View of God - Atheistic (God does not exist in the theistic sense), May have a non-theistic god or ‘higher power’

Christian Theism
View of Man - Created in God’s image and place in a position of dominion over the rest of the earth and its creatures.

Secular Humanism
View of Man - Evolution – Random Processes, single cell organism run a muck.

Christian Theism
View of Truth - Absolute, truth is for all people for all time.

Secular Humanism
View of Truth - Relativism, what may be right for me may not be right for you. Extended implications are for the cultural and for different eras of time.

Christian Theism
View of Knowledge - Knowledge is gained through general and special revelation from God. General as it applies to creation and all the sciences, special as it applies to Biblical revelation of the nature of God. General is subordinate to Special.

Secular Humanism
View of Knowledge - Naturalistic Materialism – Only through scientific exploration. Nature is a closed system. Thus those that have a non-theistic view of a god, have a god that resides inside of this natural closed system.

Christian Theism
View of Ethics - Absolute

Secular Humanism
View of Ethics - Cultural and Negotiable


41 posted on 06/20/2007 10:50:07 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions

Eating meat is a sin. And casting moral judgement over sexual pairings is a sin. And not paying “your fair share” to the state is a sin. And living in a nation that consumes more goods than the average is a sin. And waging war outside of your borders is a sin. And protecting your borders from tresspass is a sin...


42 posted on 06/20/2007 11:15:37 PM PDT by weegee (Libs want us to learn to live with terrorism, but if a gun is used they want to rewrite the Const.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Excellent post; thanks!


43 posted on 06/20/2007 11:18:52 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ( “A nation without borders is not a nation.” —Ronald Reagan)
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To: HerrBlucher
Christian theology is either true, or its false. Liking Christianity, a matter of taste, is not the same as believing in it.

See my post #40. The line between taste and truth can be blurry. I do not like any theology because I do not believe that any religion reflects the complete truth. Peruse the FR threads on Islam, and you'll see that most here (including me) find Islam to be both untrue AND distasteful.

If Colson wants to instill his beliefs in the next generation of children, he doesn't need to re-examine those beliefs, but rather the ARGUMENTS in support of those beliefs. Maybe the majority of kids today finds the usual arguments in support of Christianity incomplete, circular, dogmatic, incomprehensible, or otherwise inadequate. To non-believers, Christianity as a whole, and the many teachings within, are not self-evident. There's a difference between the Declaration of Independence, which reads "WE HOLD these truths to be self-evident" (because not everyone did), and Colson's position, which is basically, "Christianity IS self-evident, and non-Christians are moral relativists." Maybe the kids are uncomfortable - as they should be - with Colson's implication that you can't be a good person unless you're Christian. If he can't adequately explain why, he'll keep losing more and more students.

44 posted on 06/20/2007 11:19:32 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: weegee

And your point is...? Are you calling me a socialist because I’m not a Christian and because I lampooned Colson’s particular claim to a monopoly on truth??


45 posted on 06/20/2007 11:32:14 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: weegee

...and don’t forget the anchovies!


46 posted on 06/20/2007 11:34:52 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: ClaireSolt

“What I run into is that tolerance trumps truth.”

Quite so. Our modern society has raised tolerance to be the highest of all virtues. If you can say someone is “intolerant” you are well on the way to winning any debate. Concepts like “truth”, “justice” and “common sense” get steamrolled by the tolerance shiboleth.


47 posted on 06/21/2007 12:34:21 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Mr. Silverback

I think many are only “cultural Christians.” They celebrate the holidays and accept the Judeo Christian sense of right and wrong. They aren’t quite sure that everything in the bible is really true or relevant.


48 posted on 06/21/2007 12:59:13 AM PDT by marsh2
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To: marsh2

The number of people who believe the bible is the “literal truth” is only a small percentage of those who believe in Christianity.


49 posted on 06/21/2007 1:04:11 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions

It is possible for folk to be what is known as a deist, (someone who believes in the Christian message but has arrived at that belief by some kind of rational or logical thought process of reason and/or deduction) but primarily Christianity is a religion that is dependent upon personal revelation. Christians are Christians because Christ calls them and makes them Christians.

You cannot PROVE Christianity is true. That’s not to say that its positions and arguments are not defendable (throught what is known as apologetics) but because the truth of God is dependent upon the wisdom of God, and not that of men, that is really rather irrelevant. Think of it this way. If I cannot argue successfully to you that God exists, does that mean that He doesn’t? Does He promptly disappear in a puff of logic? By the same process, I could argue that YOU don’t really exist, and that all the posts under the name of Freedom_no_exceptions are being made by an alien from Mars. I mean, theoretically that could be true. I don’t know who is sitting behind that screen, neither does anyone else on this board. The only way you could prove you really are you is by coming round to my house and showing me the keyboard scars :) (This is not a challenge incidentally. I’m a believer. I actually DO think you are there!)

I believe Christianity IS true. That doesn’t mean that I think it has a monopoly on truth. If a Buddhist was to say to me “two plus two equals four” I’m not going to go away and abandon all mathematics as heresy. There is “truth” to be found in all religions (and all political theories for that matter) but that doesn’t mean they are all equally valid. Sure, all religions are superficially similar, because they are all asking and answering the same kind of questions (the big ones, life, death the universe - that kind of thing), but to say they are “equally valid” or “the same” is like saying George Bush is the same as Bill Clinton because they are both politicians.

The issue here is moral relativism. If people are being taught that nothing is absolute, and everything is equally valid, then yes, that protects them from bigotry. But what proponents of this approach forget is that if nothing is wrong then by consequence nothing is right either. And that is a VERY dangerous line of thinking to have instilled, either in the body spiritual or the body politic. What this article is really getting at is how far our culture has moved along that road already. You can bet your bottom dollar no mosque is teaching that Islam may not be the only truth.

Of course, even moral relativists do have absolutes - its just that their absolutes are different. They believe absolutely in tolerance and equality, after all :)


50 posted on 06/21/2007 1:21:52 AM PDT by Vanders9
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