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The Offensive Truth: Relativism and Our Kids
Breakpoint with Chuck Colson ^ | 6/20/2007 | Chuck Colson

Posted on 06/20/2007 8:58:09 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback

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To: irv

What’s the problem with being afraid to speak the truth?

http://moviewavs.com/0028375953/WAVS/Movies/Few_Good_Men/truth1.wav


101 posted on 06/21/2007 12:33:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: fr_freak

Revisionist Italian foods are sinful!!

Return to the fold of Pasta (SBUI) and the Great FSM will forgive!

102 posted on 06/21/2007 12:38:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tired of Taxes
Liberals think it’s okay to seek truth as long as you never find it.
 
2 Timothy 3
 1.  But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
 2.  People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
 3.  without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
 4.  treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--
 5.  having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
 6.  They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,
 7.  always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

103 posted on 06/21/2007 12:44:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JamesP81

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

HEY!!

That'd make a good bumper sticker!

104 posted on 06/21/2007 12:48:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

If you truly believe in the flying spaghetti monster, than I expect you to preach it to the world, not hide your beliefs in the closet, or preach some wishy-washy “other pastas may be valid” kind of philosophy.


105 posted on 06/21/2007 2:08:01 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Tired of Taxes
For example, this particular group would pray all the time for “things” to be delivered to them. They’d have collections for the poor. They’d make sweeping statements, such as, “We’re here to honor God.” They were always smiling and mentioning God. That seemed to be the extent of their “Christianity”. For the life of me, in two years with them, I couldn’t figure out what else they stood for. My kids were baffled, too.

There are many that their faith is merely a tool for them to feel good about themselves. For them, it is not about serving the Living God, it's about feeling good about themselves.
106 posted on 06/21/2007 2:29:52 PM PDT by JamesP81 (Romans 10:9)
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To: Mr. Silverback

“I was dismayed a while back when I learned that a Barna survey found that “less than one out of every ten churched teenagers has a biblical worldview.”

Pffft! What rock have you been living under?


107 posted on 06/21/2007 3:39:00 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper
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To: ClearCase_guy
For me, caring about others means being judgmental and helping people get on to the right path, and telling them when they are on the wrong path.

Yeah, how compassionate is it to avoid telling your neighbor his house is house is on fire because it might stress him out?

108 posted on 06/21/2007 3:40:29 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: JamesP81; uptoolate

Long ago, when I wasnt in faith, I remember clearly praying “God, if you do exist, if you are there, show yourself to me. Let me know you are there”.

I don’t believe that anyone can make a prayer lke that, and really mean it, and not have it answered.


109 posted on 06/22/2007 1:20:01 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Vanders9

Amen!


110 posted on 06/22/2007 5:29:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vanders9

What drew you to pray?


111 posted on 06/22/2007 5:20:48 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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To: uptoolate

I can’t remember the exact circumstances now. I didn’t get an immediate answer, the whole process went on over several months, as indeed it often does.

I can remember feeling quite depressed with my life, about the direction is wasn’t going. Various faithful Christians were witnessing to me, in a very gentle manner.


112 posted on 06/22/2007 9:46:54 PM PDT by Vanders9
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To: stephenjohnbanker
“One young lady had met with her pastor, who told her no one can be sure of truth”

When i read that part I shuddered for that pastor, because I recalled what it says in the Bible about teachers being judged more strictly. I pray he wises up.

113 posted on 06/22/2007 10:24:44 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback

We need alot of prayers these days. Tough times for Christians and patriots.


114 posted on 06/22/2007 10:27:54 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker ( Hunter/Thompson/Thompson/Hunter in 08! "Read my lips....No new RINO's" !!)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
As long as the kids themselves think Christianity is true what’s the problem?

How are you missing this? They either don't really believe Christianity is true or they don't know the basics of their own religion! It is a core tenet of Christianity that Jesus Christ is the one way to salvation. These kids are like Buddhists who think Nirvana is just a band Kurt Cobain used to be in.

115 posted on 06/22/2007 10:57:43 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
We must teach...no, instill...no, wait, ram this down the throats of our children or we will all perish!

I'm fascinated to know which thing you consider to be "ramming down the throats" of children. Is it the attendance at the voluntary after-school club that is "ramming" or is it telling a non-believer that your religion will save their soul that is "ramming?" Or, was it ramming when the teacher told these kids they could opt out of the activity if they weren't comfortable with it?

You see coercion where ther is none. Ask yourself why.

116 posted on 06/22/2007 11:04:32 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Graymatter
Pontius Pilate would have agreed. (”What is truth?”)

Very well put!

117 posted on 06/22/2007 11:55:53 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
Seriously? I should accept Jesus because 10 years ago “Guy Cramer” wrote a piece using incomprehensible language and math claiming to prove that the Old Testament correctly predicted the date of Israel’s independence?

No, you should accept Christ because you're a sinner and desperately need His love. You should accept Christ not because you might die tonight, but because you will live tomorrow, and the day after that...

118 posted on 06/22/2007 11:59:08 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: irv
What's the problem with being afraid to speak the truth?

Direct hit!

119 posted on 06/23/2007 12:01:12 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Paperdoll
My late husband was a Catholic. The priest visited me when he died and looked at me aghast, knowing that I am a saved Pentecostal Christian, “Do you mean you believe in the resurrection?” He asked. I couldn’t believe it. He was probably in his 30’s, and this was 12 years ago. The Seminaries don’t teach em like they used to I guess.

Oy vey!

120 posted on 06/23/2007 12:02:55 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
I think my sarcastic post clearly captured the spirit of the last paragraph of Colson's article:

What I find really shocking here is what this story tells us about the state of discipleship, not just of our kids, but of parents and pastors. This story is a wake-up call. We must learn what we believe, why we believe it and then instill it into our children, giving them a biblical view of all of life. We can’t stand idly by while relativism undermines the faith of our kids and robs them of the one sure hope they have—and desperately need. Friends, if this story gets to you like it gets to me, it’s time we got busy.

So the kids aren't buying Colson's version of the Christian message 100%. Colson says it's all or nothing, and wants to "instill" the full 100% of the message into these kids. How does he propose accomplishing that? Pressure? Guilt? Constant reminders and incessant nagging? May not be "coercion" but certainly counts as "ramming."

An earlier poster on this thread told me that "relativism" (whatever that is) teaches that some people are good and others are bad, while Christianity teaches that all people are bad. WOW!! What an uplifting message to teach to middle school students! I used a silly example in my post to lampoon Colson's being shocked, SHOCKED, that kids today adopt the culture but not the theology of Christianity. That's true of most, if not all, faiths -- including the much-feared Islam. Certainly true among the Jewish community in which I grew up.

Finally, yes, telling a nonbeliever that your religion will save their "soul" is indeed "ramming." Once, twice, infrequently, no. But if I understand correctly that Christians are "commanded" to "share the word" as much and as long as it takes for the rest of us heathens to "get it," then yes -- from our point of view, that counts as "ramming." Coercion is not the only form of ramming. I don't have to ask myself why, because I know why.

121 posted on 06/23/2007 12:06:26 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I do not like any theology because I do not believe that any religion reflects the complete truth.

Why?

Oh, and did you realize that in the second paragraph of your post you assigned Chuck Colson two positions that he does not hold and has never expressed in any Breakpoint commentary, much less this one we're discussing?

122 posted on 06/23/2007 12:08:59 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: cantfindagoodscreenname

I hope you continue to make progress with her. Prayers up!


123 posted on 06/23/2007 12:11:12 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: MrB
Yes, to my “liberal” mother in law, those who are most offensive are those that are firm in their beliefs.

A quote has become common among the local peaceniks, something that originated in the Unitarian circles about how the people who do the most damage are the ones who are certain. I had been hoping one of them would spring it on me, so I could say "Martin Luther King Junior wasabsolutely certain he was right. Are you saying he was a force for evil?" Then i would move away to watch their heads explode from a safe distance.

124 posted on 06/23/2007 12:17:30 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
No, you should accept Christ because you're a sinner and desperately need His love. You should accept Christ not because you might die tonight, but because you will live tomorrow, and the day after that...

No, what I desperately need is a girlfriend and more stable employment. And you really should renounce pizza toppings other than meatball. Thus spaketh Freedom_no_exceptions, unto whom the Great Chef of the Universe exclusively bestowed His divinely delicious knowledge.

I've got plenty of faults as a person, but "sinner" is not one of them. Sorry to disappoint.

125 posted on 06/23/2007 12:18:07 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: JamesP81

Great post.


126 posted on 06/23/2007 12:20:21 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: JamesP81; Freedom_no_exceptions
This illustrates one of the many disconnects between Christians and non-Christians. The non-Christian world classifies people as either good or bad. On the other hand, in the Bible God teaches that there really aren't any truly good people.

Ah well then, that would make it positions Colson never took that Freedom-no-exceptions assigned to him in the post we're discussing. My bad for miscounting.

127 posted on 06/23/2007 12:22:30 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: wmfights

Lutzer’s a good preacher.


128 posted on 06/23/2007 12:23:18 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Elsie
Most people spout “Judge not, lest ye be judged” because they do not want what they are doing to come under condemnation!

Had a teachable moment with my son the other day. A TV character said "Don't judge me" and I asked the boy, "What does somebody really mean when they say 'Don't judge me?'" It didn't take him long to figure out the lesson: "Don't judge me" is code for "I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I don't want to hear about it." I went on to point out that if someone believes what they're doing is right, they don't ask you to withhold judgment; instead they defend what they're doing.

129 posted on 06/23/2007 12:28:28 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I've got plenty of faults as a person, but "sinner" is not one of them.

God disagrees:

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.--Romans 3:22-24, emphasis mine.

130 posted on 06/23/2007 12:36:49 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Me: I do not like any theology because I do not believe that any religion reflects the complete truth.

You: Why?

I don't have time for a lengthy reply to something like this, so I'll instead post a link to an atheist "how-to-talk-to-believers" speech that explains why I'm a skeptic. I hope this works, because I never posted a link on FR before.

Everyone's a Skeptic--About Other Religions

131 posted on 06/23/2007 12:42:52 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I'll try the link again:

Everyone's a Skeptic--About Other Religions

132 posted on 06/23/2007 12:45:04 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
May not be "coercion" but certainly counts as "ramming."

What Colson's talking about here is Chriatians passing their values on to their kids. So, are you saying you didn't learn any values from your parents, or are you saying that they rammed it all down your throat?

An earlier poster on this thread told me that "relativism" (whatever that is) teaches that some people are good and others are bad, while Christianity teaches that all people are bad. WOW!! What an uplifting message to teach to middle school students!

Wow, what a total way to miss the point! Seriously though, have you ever even looked up Christianity in an encyclopedia? What you've said here is like saying that a mother hates her child because she dares acknowledge that labor was painful. You've left half the story out, and condemn those who tell the whole story. Sure, the message of Christianity is that all have fallen short and none of us are inherently good. But the rest of the story is that when we have Christ as the Lord of our lives we can begin to overcome that evil. We are first saved from Hell and then molded in His image, growing more like Him as we walk with Him.

But if I understand correctly that Christians are "commanded" to "share the word" as much and as long as it takes for the rest of us heathens to "get it," then yes --

If you believe that you have been fed a pure line male bovine fecal matter, my friend. There is nothing in the Bible or the practices of any denomination that endorses harassment. Could you possibly be confusing real Christians with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, who are known for knocking on your door on a regular basis until you threaten them? If not, you are again making the accusation of coercion where there is none.

Lastly... What you seem to be saying is that if Bob believes Joe is going to miss out on the coolest thing ever and be in pain forever, and Bob tells him about it, Bob's a bad person. But if he keeps this concern to himself, believing his friend is totally screwed but not doing anything about it, that makes him a stan up guy. Or maybe he's OK if he mentions it twice, but three times makes him horrible? Right?

133 posted on 06/23/2007 12:52:56 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions

The link still doesn’t work, but don’t sweat it. I’ve seen the silly “everybody’s an atheist” argument before and let’s just say I didn’t exactly find it intellectually breathtaking.


134 posted on 06/23/2007 12:57:51 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.--Romans 3:22-24

Who's "God"?

Yeah, I keep hearing this, but...no...still no evidence of a God. I did not post to this thread to debate the existence of a God -- got bored of that years ago, and I do not type fast enough. I posted only to make the point that Colson has a lot of work ahead of him if he wants an entire generation of kids to accept 100% of his beliefs as true.

135 posted on 06/23/2007 1:01:31 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Yep, you got me. I missed the point entirely. That's been my life...always missing the point. In fact, I can't believe I'm still alive, much less passing a bar exam, paying a mortgage, and posting on FR, what with my mind so defective and all.

Seriously, I know what Christianity is, salvation and all. I just happen to disagree with it. That wasn't my point in posting to this thread -- a point YOU clearly missed. And I only posted the link to the "Everyone's a Skeptic" article (not "atheist" -- another point YOU missed) in response to a question of yours.

So what is Bob supposed to do if he believes Joe is going to hell?? More importantly, when, how often, and at what length? Incessant preaching wouldn't make him a bad person...but pretty f***ing annoying. I know. I went to college with these people. Constantly inviting me to church, prayer, and Bible study did not convert me, the frequency of your replies to me on this thread will not convert me, and if these are the methods Chuck Colson has in mind to "instill" his message in a generation of children, he will not convert them either. That's my point.

Good night...or morning as the case may be.

136 posted on 06/23/2007 1:36:41 AM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

I’m amazed how so many kids, in my OWN church, have been raised in the pew, and STILL do not have a good understanding of Scripture!

Oh, they may say they’re saved, but can they deFEND that ‘faith’??

Will it stand being bombarded on every side when they go off to college?


137 posted on 06/23/2007 6:29:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
I've got plenty of faults as a person, but "sinner" is not one of them. Sorry to disappoint.

Ouch!


Full Speed Ahead!

The Captain wants to go water skiing!

138 posted on 06/23/2007 6:31:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mr. Silverback
The link still doesn’t work, but don’t sweat it.

It must have died and gone to... Where??

139 posted on 06/23/2007 6:33:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
In fact, I can't believe I'm still alive, much less passing a bar exam, paying a mortgage, and posting on FR, what with my mind so defective and all.

Good!

You are a fellow who will sift thru the evidence to make a sound judgement.

You now are being prayed for (rammed into God's presence?) by folks on this thread who trust in Jesus of Nazereth for their salvation; that you will be presented with 'evidence' of GOD's existance, and, of His love for you.


Myself; I'm off to see the grandkids Play BALL!

140 posted on 06/23/2007 6:36:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mr. Silverback

To a liberal, I’m narrow minded because I believe in the effects of gravity.


141 posted on 06/23/2007 6:40:32 AM PDT by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions; Mr. Silverback
"relativism" (whatever that is) teaches that some people are good and others are bad, while Christianity teaches that all people are bad. WOW!! What an uplifting message to teach to middle school students!

FWIW, you don't have to focus on the negative. Christianity is the only faith in the world where you have a personal Saviour, who has already paid the price for your sins. You don't have to do any special deeds, just believe and have FAITH in JESUS.

142 posted on 06/23/2007 5:16:06 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Lutzer’s a good preacher.

Yes he is! :-)

143 posted on 06/23/2007 5:19:40 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions; Mr. Silverback
I posted only to make the point that Colson has a lot of work ahead of him if he wants an entire generation of kids to accept 100% of his beliefs as true.

Unfortunately you're right. Scripture never tells us everyone will come to a saving faith.

144 posted on 06/23/2007 5:26:38 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
the frequency of your replies to me on this thread will not convert me,

I wasn't badgering you, I was conversing with you. Basically, if we'd been talking about football, you wouldn't be whining about how when you posted something to me I had the audacity to post back. Kinda misanthropic, dude.

and if these are the methods Chuck Colson has in mind to "instill" his message in a generation of children, he will not convert them either.

How did you pass the bar with such poor logic skills? This article is not about witnessing to non-Christians, it's about Christian parents and clergy instilling their values in their kids. That's why I asked about your parents.

145 posted on 06/24/2007 9:42:03 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: wmfights

Of course not, but this poor deluded dude thinks that there’s a command for Christians to badger every persobn until they convert.


146 posted on 06/24/2007 9:43:11 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
Who's "God"?

You'll find out...hopefully sooner rather than later.

147 posted on 06/24/2007 9:45:24 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Elsie

Anyone who thinks they haven’t sinned should try walking on water...but then, I think that’s what you were getting at...:-)


148 posted on 06/24/2007 9:48:07 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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To: Mr. Silverback
How did you pass the bar with such poor logic skills?

Logic, shmogic. I prayed : )

This article is not about witnessing to non-Christians, it's about Christian parents and clergy instilling their values in their kids. That's why I asked about your parents.

By "values" do you mean morals or ethics? Parents can, indeed, teach their kids how to play nice with others (ethics). But how does one "teach" faith (morals)? I thought Christianity stresses a *personal* relationship with God. How can parents get their kids to believe the message 100% the way Colson intends, i.e., how can one "instill" a leap of faith? That's why I asked you what methods Colson (or others like him) propose?

As for my own parents, let's just say that I'm happier than they are with how I turned out, and "lawyer" has very little to do with that. You can "instill" away 'til you're blue in the face, but don't underestimate the ability of kids of any age to see through what they perceive to be BS.

149 posted on 06/24/2007 10:19:50 PM PDT by Freedom_no_exceptions (No actual, intended, or imminent victim = no crime. No exceptions.)
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To: Freedom_no_exceptions
Logic, shmogic. I prayed : )

To who?

150 posted on 06/24/2007 11:44:28 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (A pacifist sees no distinction between the arsonist and the fireman--Freeper ccmay)
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